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Fox Sports: "Zach Arnold's Fight Opinion site is one of the best spots on the Web for thought-provoking MMA pieces."

« | Home | »

Wednesday weekly notes: Reality TV mania

By Zach Arnold | July 11, 2007

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About that Mark Burnett reality show for Elite XC… is the recruiting starting?

Luke Thomas on the UFC 73 attendance. More at Fightlinker.

Kuniyoshi Hironaka announced his blog that he will facing Thiago Alves at Ultimate Fight Night 11 on September 19th at The Pearl at the Palms in Las Vegas.

During the IFL telecast on FSN last week, the network aired ads for a “Best Damn Toughman” show that will air on the network Wednesday night.

On yesterday’s Around the Horn show on ESPN TV, a panel of three sportswriters (JA Adande, Jay Mariotti, and Kevin Blackistone) discussed whether or not Congress should investigate professional wrestling in regards to steroids. Audio here. All three writers agreed that there should be Congressional hearings.

Onto today’s headlines.

  1. MMA Weekly: JZ Calvan injured and off HERO’s card
  2. UFC HP: The Highly Unofficial Half-Year UFC Awards – The Upsets
  3. UFC Junkie: Shogun to debut against Ryoto Machida at UFC 76
  4. MMA Weekly: Brazilian Team MMA debuts on August 11th
  5. Ark City: Tyler Stinton victorious in Vegas debut
  6. The Merced Sun Star (CA): Investigators still have few clues in Arco incident
  7. The Saipan Tribune: Local MMA fighters must get formal training
  8. The Guam Pacific Daily News: Fighters out to settle score at PXC 12
  9. The Orange County Register: News and notes from UFC
  10. The Monterey County Herald: Law school grad Christian Wellisch makes his case in MMA
  11. Bodog PR: UFC will surpass boxing in online betting revenues for 2007
  12. The Edmonton Sun: Fighting for a future – Riggs and Chambers both have extra incentive
  13. MMA on Tap: TKO notes and quotes

Topics: Brazil, Canada, IFL, Media, MMA, Pro-Wrestling, UFC, Zach Arnold | 67 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

67 Responses to “Wednesday weekly notes: Reality TV mania”

  1. klown says:

    Who gets those thousands of complimentary tickets? And how can we get our hands on them?

  2. Zach Arnold says:

    An educated guess is perhaps some tickets are given away to corporate sponsors.

  3. cyphron says:

    I was just thinking how betting affects sports watching. In the NFL, I know many, many individuals who are interested in the league due to gambling alone. I believe that is one of the reasons why so many fans watch the playoffs even when their teams are long gone. But why is the NFL more receptive to the gambling crowds as opposed to the other sports? The main reason is that the underdogs can win on any given Sunday. Furthermore, there are more variables to bet (such as who’s leading at what quarter). These are the same reasons why MMA is such a great sport to bet on. With so many ways to attack (RUN VS PASS/KO VS Submission) and many ways to defend, any fight can go either way and any fighter can lose on any given Saturday. Game planning is much more important in MMA than in boxing. Furthermore, a 9-bout even allows parlays and more choices in what and who to bet.

    Gamblers like to bet underdogs because that is where the money is won in the long run. Boxing doesn’t have enough upsets to interest the gamblers…but MMA does. And that is where the battle will be won. Fans will be made through gambling and then they will be forced to learn the rules and the techniques in order to become better at picking the winners. Hardcore fans will stay, but casual fans will be sustained through the gambling element.

    Article 11 sites that UFC will surpass boxing in online betting revenues for 2007. This, to me, is a great indicator of how MMA is blowing into the mainstream (UFC=MMA in the US). I’ve always known that the NFL is big because it is a haven for gamblers (hardcore and casual fans) and I think MMA is a prime sport for this as well. Fighting is universal but so is gambling.

  4. D.Capitated says:

    I think people need to rationally look at that article from PRweb. Its from Bodog about only Bodog’s own sportsbook. That a organization sponsoring MMA might see increases in the number of bets on MMA is hardly indicative of all sports betting.

  5. cyphron says:

    Bodog is only the biggest online gambling site so it is a good indicator. No one is saying that one PR means that MMA has overtaken boxing in gambling, but that is a trend that will be reached sooner or later.

    The point is, however, that MMA, like football, is more receptive to gambling than other sports, including boxing.

  6. Euthyphro says:

    Junkie is reporting that the UFC has reached verbal agreement with Wanderlei on a deal to fight Chuck in September. If so, this is big news — nevertheless, I wish they wouldn’t book this fight so soon since it will irreparably damage one of the two biggest names in the sport no matter the outcome. 2 losses in a row for Liddell, now that the UFC is in the mainstream and he is their face, could be disastrous. Similarly, a loss here for Wanderlei would be his third in a row (most likely his third KO in a row) and his first in the UFC. Not good for either fighter.

  7. Euthyphro says:

    Speaking of UFCJunkie, Dann has really come out of nowhere to become a major source for UFC news. How he gets a lot of these exclusives, I have no idea, but his site is a can’t-miss nowadays.

  8. D.Capitated says:

    Bodog is only the biggest online gambling site so it is a good indicator.

    Sportsbook.com is.

    The point is, however, that MMA, like football, is more receptive to gambling than other sports, including boxing.

    Because Bodog.com alone says that it exceeded their boxing bets this year?

  9. he’s been around for a while working hard hard hard, definately deserves it. I remember when the site was just starting, I was one of the only people posting in the comments. Now it’s got a ton of commenters and fighters posting in there. I just hope he manages to parlay it into some moneyz.

  10. D.Capitated says:

    Silva/Liddell is the quintessential crossroads fight. They’ve got virtually every major light heavyweight contender under contract. What are they supposed to do, bench guys for 12-16 months and never have them fight each other?

  11. D.Capitated says:

    Since my first post didn’t go through, apparently….

    Bodog is only the biggest online gambling site so it is a good indicator.

    No, its not. Sportsbook.com is.

    The point is, however, that MMA, like football, is more receptive to gambling than other sports, including boxing.

    That’s entirely your opinion. The only evidence of that is that Bodog, a gambling company that runs MMA bouts, has seen MMA go past boxing this year in terms of bets placed.

  12. 45 Huddle says:

    The Top 5 Light Heavyweights in the world are: Rua, Jackson, Liddell, Henderson, & Silva. The UFC will now have all 5 of those guys. And 4 of them will be fighting each other in the month of September, with Rua fighting a very legit contender in Machida.

    And besides Sokoudjou, the UFC will basically have 14 of the 15 Top Light Heavyweights. And about 12 of the Top 15 Heavyweights and around 10 or 12 of the Top Welterweights. The only divisions they haven’t really got a total grasp on are Middleweight and Lightweight.

    The Middleweight Division still has some top tier talent outside of the UFC such as Lindland, Kang, and a few others. The Lightweight Division in the UFC alone is stacked. And there are still a few fighters the UFC does have who are top level such as Ribeiro, JZ, Thompson, Yamamoto (he could be Feather), Gomi, Ishida, Melendez, Kawajiri, & Hansen.

  13. Euthyphro says:

    [blockquote]Silva/Liddell is the quintessential crossroads fight. They’ve got virtually every major light heavyweight contender under contract. What are they supposed to do, bench guys for 12-16 months and never have them fight each other?[/blockquote]

    No, but the problem here is that there are no marquee matchups to the average PPV-buying audience. There are plenty of great matchups for hardcore fans, of course, but they all involve matching up (ex-)PRIDE fighters vs UFC fighters or other (ex-)PRIDE guys. Shogun, Silva, and Henderson are virtually anonymous here, Fox Sports Net tv show and American PPVs be damned. They need to spend some time building these guys up to become American stars — they’re not just going to be able to bring superstardom along with them. For all the hype, it takes impressive wins, media exposure, and time to make a star in American MMA.

    Silva has a great nickname, a great fighting style, and a marketable look to go on, but very little US exposure. Plus, his last name will inevitably make people think that they’re matching up Liddell against the Brazilian guy who crushed Rich Franklin. Until US crowds really know Wanderlei (and his previous introductions in the Octagon showed that they don’t), this fight won’t reach the level it otherwise could. Sure, a Liddell fight will sell no matter what, but this is, and should be recognized as, a megafight. Right now, it’s LIDDELL vs some guy, instead of the LIDDELL vs WANDERLEI SILVA WOW WOW AMAZING that it should be.

  14. cyphron says:

    “That’s entirely your opinion. The only evidence of that is that Bodog, a gambling company that runs MMA bouts, has seen MMA go past boxing this year in terms of bets placed.”

    Obviously. This place is called Fightopinion for a reason. Have I ever indicated that what I wrote as gospel truth?

  15. D.Capitated says:

    Obviously. This place is called Fightopinion for a reason. Have I ever indicated that what I wrote as gospel truth?

    Having an opinion that is supported with, oh, just about anything, would be nice.

  16. cyphron says:

    D. Capitated,
    You’re a funny guy. I just wrote three paragraphs on why I felt MMA is more conducive to gamblers, and you’re telling me I didn’t back it up? Give me a break. I thought this is a place for intelligent discussions.

  17. D.Capitated says:

    No, but the problem here is that there are no marquee matchups to the average PPV-buying audience.

    How would Silva become a major draw in the US? By badly speaking English again? Americans are just like everyone else: They root chiefly for their own. Silva is not going to electrify the audience and start doing guest spots on sitcoms.

  18. SergioTX says:

    “Silva has a great nickname, a great fighting style, and a marketable look to go on, but very little US exposure.”

    When Silva stepped into the Octagon for his staredown with Chuck, Silva’s name shot up to Yahoo’s HotList or whatever… there was a huge increase in the amount of times Silva’s name was typed in their search engine.

    A lot of people know who he is.

  19. klown says:

    It would be good for Silva and Rua to have introductory fights before their big match-ups. Throw them TUFies like Griffin, Bonnar and Jardine. Heck, throw them Tito Ortiz so his career can end already. And match Liddell against Evans. By then we’ll have clearly established the LHW elite, for the record as well as in the eyes of the softcore fans. I believe that elite consists of the Top 5 listed by 45 Huddle. Having introduced the new fighters and established the dominance of the Top 5, let the big battles begin between Henderson, Jackson, Rua, Silva and Liddell.

    Of course, upsets could happen which would sink my masterplan 😛

  20. D.Capitated says:

    You’re a funny guy. I just wrote three paragraphs on why I felt MMA is more conducive to gamblers, and you’re telling me I didn’t back it up? Give me a break. I thought this is a place for intelligent discussions.

    Saying MMA is more conducive to gamblers on the basis of a sort of superfecta (they exist for boxing too, you know) and because there’s more options for attack (gamblers like to win, last I checked) are pretty much BS. Boxing “doesn’t have enough upsets”? There’s plenty. There were several last weekend. There’s also typically much higher odds for major underdogs and it appeals far more to bettors in Europe. Again, more than mere speculation about preferences for gamblers.

  21. D.Capitated says:

    It would be good for Silva and Rua to have introductory fights before their big match-ups. Throw them TUFies like Griffin, Bonnar and Jardine. Heck, throw them Tito Ortiz so his career can end already. And match Liddell against Evans.

    Considering the last time Silva fought Ortiz, that would be a really horrible idea.

  22. cyphron says:

    “Again, more than mere speculation about preferences for gamblers.”

    We shall see in the next three years whether my speculation is true or not.

    “Boxing “doesn’t have enough upsets”? There’s plenty.”

    In the upper rungs of boxing, do upsets happen all that often? MMA fighters almost always have a blemished records, even in their prime, whereas top champion boxers are almost always undefeated.

    “There’s also typically much higher odds for major underdogs and it appeals far more to bettors in Europe.”

    Obviously there are better odds for boxing underdogs for precisely that reason: champions almost never lose.

  23. I thought cyphron’s post was really well thought out and explained. I don’t see why you’re riding his ass on it.

  24. 45 Huddle says:

    Tito Ortiz vs. Wanderlei Silva 2 would look very much like Ricardo Arona vs. Wanderlei Silva or Silva/Ortiz 1. Plus, Ortiz has better striking then Arona, and is good enough on the feet not to take much abuse. Style wise, it is a bad fight for Silva.

  25. klown says:

    It’s Rua I had in mind for Ortiz. I think Rua would send Ortiz to Bodog or EXC.

  26. 45 Huddle says:

    My guess is that Wanderlei Silva got his wish and is making 7 figures for this fight.

  27. D.Capitated says:

    We shall see in the next three years whether my speculation is true or not.

    Indeed we will.

    In the upper rungs of boxing, do upsets happen all that often?

    Yes. Absolutely. Vic Darchinyan lost last weekend in a huge upset. When was the last time Fedor lost? Chuck held his strap for quite awhile. So did Matt Hughes. So did Wanderlei Silva (and his loss to Arona was hardly a major upset). Saying that the belts change far more frequently in MMA is more of a recent phenomenon, one that will eventually end.

    MMA fighters almost always have a blemished records, even in their prime, whereas top champion boxers are almost always undefeated.

    Which has nothing to do with major upsets, but rather the fact that MMA fighters aren’t protected like their counterparts in boxing. Everyone knows that.

    Obviously there are better odds for boxing underdogs for precisely that reason: champions almost never lose.

    …because they’re often given horrible “mandatory” defenses, like Ray Austin’s bout against Wladimir Klitschko. Once in awhile one of those even strikes when the iron is hot, like Oleg Maskaev’s massive surprise win against Hasim Rahman last summer.

  28. The Gaijin says:

    You’re kidding yourself if you think Ortiz/Silva II looks anything like Ortiz/Silva I or Silva/Arona for that matter.

    Arona is far and away better than Ortiz…especially at this point in Ortiz’s overblown and overrated career. Silva’s takedown defence is a lot better than he ever gets credit for and his ability to both fight off his back and get out from the bottom are very underrated. Watch Arona/Silva II – his stuffs, reversals and getting up from under Arona was very impressive…he stuffed over 1/2 of Arona’s TD’s and actually bench-pressed Arona off of him twice.

    Ortiz basically pulled one takedown and LAID on top of Silva doing absolutely nothing…I know you’ve seen the UFC lately and we all know that if it ever went to the ground there would be a lot of standups going on. The only real difference is that Ortiz is absolutely terrified of getting hit but would be dumb/cocky enough to try to stand with Silva b/c he’d be too chickenshit to close the distance for the takedown.

    I’m sorry but a guy who gets picked apart by Forrest Griffin and cannot even take him down or keep him there would be one a one-way ticket to having his bulbous head sent into the cheap seats by a headhunter like Silva.

  29. D.Capitated says:

    Tito did a pretty good job taking down Forrest Griffin in that first round. I’d also counter in regards to Wanderlei’s striking that its ridiculously overrated. He bores straight in with his chin up all the time. Not only that, he’s noticably smaller these days and coming off a few possibly life altering KOs. I did, however, see Tito Ortiz take a good technical striker and pin him against the mat and cage for a good 3 rounds, and I really doubt that Tito would lose a point for preventing takedowns against the Axe Murderer either. Tito’s striking is a lot straighter as well.

    Oh yeah, and the whole knees on the ground/soccer kick game that Wanderlei was so good at? Not happening anywhere he wants that fight, unless DEEP dishes out a few million.

  30. cyphron says:

    “Which has nothing to do with major upsets, but rather the fact that MMA fighters aren’t protected like their counterparts in boxing. Everyone knows that.”

    So by telling me that boxers are more protected than MMA fighters, you’ve proven my point that boxers tend to not be upset more than MMA fighters.

    “…because they’re often given horrible “mandatory” defenses, like Ray Austin’s bout against Wladimir Klitschko. Once in awhile one of those even strikes when the iron is hot, like Oleg Maskaev’s massive surprise win against Hasim Rahman last summer.”

    You’ve just shown me why these “mandatory” defenses tend to cause less upsets. And you’ve also shown me how one exception does not prove the rule.

    I’ve sure you’ll dispute this point as well, but I’ll state it anyway: Boxing requires an athlete to be great in one discipline (boxing) which means that more likely than not, a person who is extremely skilled at that discipline will be extremely hard to knock off. That is also the reason why there is such a big gap between superstars and amateur fighters. In MMA, athletes must be trained in multi-disciplines and almost universally, no one athlete is superior in all disciplines, be it boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, or jujitsu. That is the reason why MMA fighters are more prone to upsets; when there are more elements to defend against, there are more ways to lose. This is irrefutable logic.

    Yet, I already know you will dispute this as well. You have never given me credit for any points I have made. So be it, you can have the last words. I’m done with this argument.

  31. Jeremy (not that Jeremy) says:

    I do think that it’s interesting that so far, the guys brought in from Pride have largely been fighting grudge matches against other guys that they fought outside of UFC. Even Rampage v. Liddell was a pride rematch of sorts.

  32. Grape Knee High says:

    I’d agree that Wanderlei’s striking is overrated, but “noticeably smaller”?

    Even during his jacked-up period in PRIDE around 2003/2004 has he never looked so large as he has in his last two fights against CC and Hendo.

  33. 45 Huddle says:

    The biggest change for Silva during his career was from IVC 2 to IVC 6. In the course of 9 months, he went from a skinny striker to a shredded fighter. I doubt it was all natural.

  34. D. Capitated says:

    Even during his jacked-up period in PRIDE around 2003/2004 has he never looked so large as he has in his last two fights against CC and Hendo.

    Really? Because it looked to me like he lost a significant portion of his definiton and overall muscle mass in the last couple years. I think people are woefully underestimating Tito in a fight with him, perhaps due to simply not having seen the first bout. Apart from a flurry landed in the championship rounds, it was absolute domination from Tito. And while he may not be as good with submissions as Arona was, I’d venture a guess to say he’s every bit the wrestler and probably a little more.

  35. D. Capitated says:

    So by telling me that boxers are more protected than MMA fighters, you’ve proven my point that boxers tend to not be upset more than MMA fighters.

    They aren’t typically at a championship level. Besides, how can a fight between two prospects or a prospect and a long time veteran that leads to a younger fighter losing be considered an “upset”? Upsets occur when there are clear favorites and the favorite loses. This is basic stuff.

    You’ve just shown me why these “mandatory” defenses tend to cause less upsets.

    It depends what you consider a champion. Would Gary St. Clair’s paper belt have counted for you when there was a consensus 135lb champion?

    And you’ve also shown me how one exception does not prove the rule.

    Would you like me to list upsets in boxing in the last 12 months as proof or something? You act as if sportsbooks are run by retards who would never adjust based on the results of fights, and that gamblers will bet on UFC forever in droves because those with the plus symbol keep winning.

    I’ve sure you’ll dispute this point as well, but I’ll state it anyway: Boxing requires an athlete to be great in one discipline (boxing) which means that more likely than not, a person who is extremely skilled at that discipline will be extremely hard to knock off. That is also the reason why there is such a big gap between superstars and amateur fighters. In MMA, athletes must be trained in multi-disciplines and almost universally, no one athlete is superior in all disciplines, be it boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, or jujitsu. That is the reason why MMA fighters are more prone to upsets; when there are more elements to defend against, there are more ways to lose. This is irrefutable logic.

    No, there is refutable logic. All fighters are flawed in various fashions. Great technical boxers may often have weak chins, or find themselves in trouble against swarming punchers. In MMA, fighters who have a background chiefly in kickboxing are often not typically favorites against elite level grapplers because they haven’t spent years training to defend takedowns. Its like saying you can’t bet on horses because there are ten of them on the course at once and they all look the same.

  36. Zack says:

    “Tito Ortiz vs. Wanderlei Silva 2 would look very much like Ricardo Arona vs. Wanderlei Silva or Silva/Ortiz 1. Plus, Ortiz has better striking then Arona, and is good enough on the feet not to take much abuse. Style wise, it is a bad fight for Silva.”

    It would never look like Ortiz/Silva 1 due to much more frequent standups now.

    Liddell & Ortiz were also a lot smaller earlier in their careers (Liddell, even after he hit the age of 30.) How do you explain that?

    I’m not making any assumptions, but you’re obviously hinting that Wanderlei was on the juice. I wouldn’t disagree necessarily. His traps were ridiculous in the first Hendo fight. I just wanted to point out those three have all seemed to grow relatively dramatically from early on in their careers.

  37. D. Capitated says:

    [quote]Liddell & Ortiz were also a lot smaller earlier in their careers (Liddell, even after he hit the age of 30.) How do you explain that?[/quote]

    Ortiz was very obviously much larger than Silva at that point, and most assuredly would be now as well. But as for Ortiz, his head does seem to be a little bigger than it used to be….

  38. 45 Huddle says:

    At least with Ortiz, it was a gradual increase. For Silva, all of the bulking up happened within a year. That is very hard to do.

    It’s frustrating to see JZ pull out of that tournament. I was looking forward to him fighting Ribeiro. Hopefully he will be int he next round or perhaps fight the winner of the tournament.

  39. JThue says:

    Grove vs. Coté has been added to the 74 card at the UFC HP. “STACKED” was the beginning of a trend and the end of the year plus of thin cards since the PPV & TV increase it seems, as 74, 75 and 76 all seem to be following in 73’s footsteps rather than falling back to the previous norm. And thank goodness for that.

  40. aceofblades says:

    Just to add a small point (from one definition perspective) that if a person favored the prospect and he lost, then that could be considered an “upset” to that person. So perspective can play a role, sum up those perspectives among many people (finding the metrics to use can be up for debate), and you may see a statistical trend towards one fighter or another.

    Speaking of wanderlei, though, what do you guys think about the rumor , from UFC junkie, of a verbal agreement for Wandy vs. Chuck to be held at UFC 76? If true this could add another piece of evidence for the trend you’re mentioning JThue, and hopefully we all can agree that it will be a boon for fight fans

  41. The Gaijin says:

    Please – Silva was 19 years old in his first few IVC fights you fucking moron. No 19 year old has EVER gotten noticeably bigger while training full time with a professional team overseeing them…give me a break – according to you toolboxes anyone who doesnt fight in the UFC (which is a real bastion of drug testing) is a roided up freak. You ball jangling UFC-ites are ridiculous. And yes I’m perfectly aware that there is no UFC or PRIDE, like you guys love to point out, meanwhile cock-gobbling anything resembling an argument about an ex-PRIDE fighter and anyone or anything UFC.

    Ortiz hasn’t looked good against anyone that’s not over 45 years of age in 5 years. He hasn’t dominated anyone since he fought guys like Sinosic who were sub-par blown up 185ers. He took Griffin down all of what? Once? Twice? And he got wobbled and teed off on. And Tito did well for 3 rounds against Chuck?? Really…Really?? I saw him press him up against the fence once and get a trip takedown from behind that stayed on the ground for less time than it took me to write this sentence (that’s a Breen line I believe).

    Say what you will about Silva’s technical striking but it’s better than Liddell’s and he hits just as hard if not harder – Tito would wilt like a lily if the fight remained standing for any longer than 10 seconds. Silva’s managed to fight guys like Rampage and KO them spectacularly w/o the use of his kicks or knees on the ground; those are just icing on the cake for a guy with TNT in his hands and vicious vicious MT knees.

    Get over your man-love for all UFC fighters – go actually watch a few fights that these guys have had in the past few years…only a pair of morons like you two (D. and 45) would be able to make any sort of analysis of that match-up and try to convince someone Tito’s career would be over after that fight.

    Here’s a good comparison for how the fight might go – go watch Fujita vs. Silva but Tito’s shot is nowhere near as good as Fujita’s (anymore at least), he’s nowhere near as strong and has absolutely nowhere near the chin or the confidence to stand with Silva.

  42. 45 Huddle says:

    I’m not even going to respond to the last post, as he made it very Sherdog like and started to attack…..

    As for the UFC Cards staying solid, I agree. The rumored UFC 75 card is actually a tad of a step down, but still very solid. And UFC 76 will have Liddell/Silva, Fitch/Sanchez, Rua/Machida. That is really good.

    As for the rumored UFC 74 card:

    * Champion Randy Couture vs. Gabriel Gonzaga (for heavyweight title)
    * Georges St. Pierre vs. Josh Koscheck
    * Patrick Cote vs. Kendall Grove
    * Joe Stevenson vs. Kurt Pellegrino
    * David Heath vs. Renato “Babalu” Sobral
    * Marcus Aurelio vs. Clay Guida
    * Ryan Jensen vs. Travis Lutter

  43. D. Capitated says:

    Mentioning the increase in Tito’s skull size is a nice way of saying “I THINK HE IS ON HGH”. Just an FYI.

    Ortiz hasn’t looked good against anyone that’s not over 45 years of age in 5 years. He hasn’t dominated anyone since he fought guys like Sinosic who were sub-par blown up 185ers.

    Matyushenko was a blown up 185lb fighter? That’s a news flash to me.

    He took Griffin down all of what? Once? Twice?

    Did you see the fight? Really now. He almost stopped it inside the first minute of the bout.

    Say what you will about Silva’s technical striking but it’s better than Liddell’s and he hits just as hard if not harder

    There’s a laundry list of one punch KOs against top light heavyweights for Liddell. There isn’t one for Silva. And while Liddell is anything but orthodox in his approach, he works chiefly as a counterpuncher rather than Silva’s mauling style. There’s the bit the large gap in the two men’s grappling as well. Silva has to march forward because its all he knows. If he gets in the clinch, he’s in with a guy that’s really big and really strong and has previously established being able to take guys down and pulverize them, or at the least grind out a decision win.

    Tito would wilt like a lily if the fight remained standing for any longer than 10 seconds

    Its rather simple: What can’t Tito do now that he did in the first fight? Take down Silva? Silva’s certainly been taken down in recent bouts. Why can’t he repeat the work of another wrestler, one much smaller than him from merely a couple months ago? Why the comparison to Fujita, a notoriously bad striker, and a man who’s success is nowhere approaching that of Tito Ortiz’s?

    Get over your man-love for all UFC fighters

    Someone said earlier this place looks like Sherdog all of a sudden. I agree.

  44. cyphron says:

    Based on who Wanderlei fought over the last 5 years VS who Tito has fought, how can anyone say that Tito is even in the same league as Wanderlei?

    Mark Hunt, Arona, Rampage, Henderson, Crocop, Fujita would all wipe the floor with Ortiz. Wanderlei’s losses have all been against elite fighters. Tito hasn’t even fought fighters of that caliber other than Liddell and Couture.

    You can argue that Pride fighters are overrated…but you can’t convince me that Ortiz is an elite fighter. No way.

  45. The Gaijin says:

    1.) Sinosic, Kondo, Tanner, big Vladdy and 38-year old Shamrock and then he fought Cote and almost got KO’d later on. Are any of these guys even title contenders at 185?!?
    – Four (4) 185’ers, one senior citizen and the Janitor

    2.) Tito Ortiz is nowhere near better or more successful than Fujita in the grand scheme of things.
    Comparison’s: both are overrated, both get by on strength w/ lack of overall skill, both with less than stellar standup but Fujita’s actually got standup power and a granite chin.

    My point being that Fujita is a much, much larger Ortiz-like clone and he was destroyed by Silva and his “crappy standup and bad takedown defence”.

    Ortiz is a box office success and a marketing success and that is it. His takedowns are slow, telegraphed and just plain mediocre, he’s been completely exposed as a fighter that was massively, massively protected. His standup is seriously pitiful, I’ve never seen a guy that big throw such pillows – he’s afraid to get hit and b/c of that he can’t/won’t close distance on guys that he knows can hurt him. Ortiz’s confidence in the ring/cage is non-existent whether in standing exchanges, taking hits, attempting takedowns or pretty much any area of the sport. His stamina isn’t even up to snuff like it used to be – he’s always starting to gas.

    3.) Wow…he landed some shots at the beginning of the round on of all people FORREST GRIFFIN – an overrated reality tv show star, who knocked him around and stuffed his takedowns like Tito was an early exit from TUF. And he still didn’t finish the guy, he doesn’t finish anyone anymore and he gasses badly at the end of fights – not a good trait when fighting a guy that devours fighters when there’s blood in the water.

    [Just rewatched it for you] RECAP:
    Rd. 1 – 2 X takedown for Tito (one escaped)
    Rd. 2 – 5 X FAILED takedowns; and picked to pieces by Griffin’s toughman boxing (say what you will about Silva’s “wild” striking, its far faster/better combos/infinitely more powerful and KO dangerous) – sorry but if Silva nailed even 1/4 of the shots Griffin did Tito would be “nitey,nite”
    Rd 3. – 3 X FAILED takedowns + 1 x successful takedown that Griffin stood up from after 1 min. on the ground of “laying”; more target practice on Tito’s dome by Griffin’s precision striking.

    Yup I did watch thanks – 3 successful takedowns, two of which Griffin got back to his feet.

    4.) If Silva was put up against the laundry list of tailor made opponents that Liddell was he’d have a litany of KO’s himself. Guys like “Put my head down and run at you” Babalu (who’s worthy chin withstood the likes of Lambert), Jeremy Horn, Vernon “Tiger” White and let’s not forget “Stand-up ace” Tito. Liddell’s amazing ability to bring it against a top fighter with half a clue what to do standing ended really well didn’t it? Against the same guy that Silva has smashed into oblivion twice and who consequently is far more dangerous of a fighter standing and takedowns/slams/strength/g’n’p than l’n’p Tito.

    5.) Yes Silva has been taken down in recent bouts – but it took a lot of energy to do so, took damage getting there and Silva doesn’t exactly fall asleep on his back and usually gets back up from under them. If he could do it against Arona and Fujita he can just as surely do it against Tito “Junior College Wrestler”Ortiz – if he could even get it there. Don’t forget Tito and his Bob Sapp-like distaste for getting hit in the face would have to deal with one of the most dangerous 205 strikers in the world trying to do this – NOT – Forrest Griffin.

  46. D. Capitated says:

    Based on who Wanderlei fought over the last 5 years VS who Tito has fought, how can anyone say that Tito is even in the same league as Wanderlei?

    You know, maybe you should really start watching fighting and try to understand that, okay? I’m getting a little tired of the beginner’s level “BUT THE COMPETITION~!” thing. Just for the record, I like 2004 Ortiz over 2004 Hunt, given that Ortiz is a much better wrestler than any version of Hunt, particularly that one, and wouldn’t have tried to trade with him.

    Sinosic, Kondo, Tanner, big Vladdy and 38-year old Shamrock and then he fought Cote and almost got KO’d later on. Are any of these guys even title contenders at 185?!?

    Its not Tito’s fault Kondo and Tanner got old. He also beat Vitor Belfort (who Silva historically had a bit of an issue with), beat Forrest Griffin (much to your apparent chagrin), and drew with a very solid fighter in Rashad Evans. But who’s counting?

    Comparison’s: both are overrated, both get by on strength w/ lack of overall skill, both with less than stellar standup but Fujita’s actually got standup power and a granite chin.

    This is seriously Sherdog level stuff now. Tito’s shown that he can get the clinch, take people down (including D1 and international level wrestlers), and pound them. Fujita, who you love to make comparisons using, had a horrible time trying to get Shamrock down. Tito had none. Fujita’s standup power is at best exaggerated by you. Tito has hurt Wanderlei Silva standing. There’s really nothing to discuss here.

    From here on in we go into more bottom of the barrel stuff. Tito supposedly deserving to lose to Forrest in spite of blocking virtually all of his offense and probably earning a 10-8 round in the first, Liddell being given “hand picked opposition” in comparison to Silva’s bouts with Minowa, Iwasaki, Otsuka, 2 unnecessary fights with Sakuraba, Tamura, Yoshida (twice), Kanehara, and Kondo, comparing Silva’s performance with Arona to that of the Fujita fight, and so on. Its okay. I get that you’re a fanboy. I think I’m done with this. Maybe you and the other guy can discuss how singular the style of “boxing” is and why it is that no one apparently is ever upset in any combat sport that isn’t MMA.

  47. 45 Huddle says:

    Just a quick point. Wanderlei Silva hasn’t had a win at 205 lbs in over 18 months. And that was a razor close decision. And he hasn’t had a decisive win at 205 lbs in over 2 years. So for as much talk of Ortiz not doing things as of late, Silva hasn’t exactly been Mr. Rua, now has he…..

  48. 45 Huddle says:

    One last point….

    This sport has evolved at such a high rate, that the past can really only say so much about a fighter. This is why it is nice that we are finally getting to see them fight. No more arguments after that.

    Look at the level of a UFC Lightweight back during the UFC 40’s….. Edwards & Thomson were considered top of the food chain back then. Even the lower level UFC fighters like Edgar, Guida, Griffin, Huerta, and others are leaps and bounds about the previously top guys.

    So this goes for both Liddell and Silva. For all we know, the evolution of the sport could ave already passed them by. It has happened to so many legends, and it could quickly happen to these guys. Guys like Mauricio Rua, Anderson Silva, Sean Sherk… Those are the fighters of tomorrow. And heck, for all we know, perhaps Gabriel Gonzaga will beat Fedor…. That will really mess with the hardcore fans minds….

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