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Two takeaways from DREAM 7/10 Saitama Super Arena event
By Zach Arnold | July 10, 2010
It feels like every show this promotion puts on, the interest in the product continues to gradually decrease.
We had a Lightweight fight that, only for the sake of rankings, meant something. In every other context, it wasn’t a fight that was heavily pushed in Japan nor was it a fight that anyone was even talking about (especially the hardcore fans) in the week leading up to it. Usually with the hardcore fans online, you hear some sort of buzz about what happens in Japan. Perhaps there was no buzz for this fight because of the way Aoki got manhandled by Gilbert Melendez last April in Nashville.
If Crusher Kawajiri had won this fight, he would still be underneath the UFC Lightweights in rankings but at least he’d be right in the Top 6 mix. Instead, he went out and got submitted. It provides true clarity about where the best Lightweights in the world are (UFC), as if that hadn’t already been answered.
The development of Aoki challenging Gilbert Melendez to a re-match is a strange deal. Gilbert has the hand injury, so it’s hard to say if he could even make it to September. Then there’s that little fact that he’s suspended by Tennessee, but of course I don’t think an athletic commission would do a damn thing to him if he fought in Japan. Third, why would Melendez want to fight Aoki again? The only reason to take that fight is because of money or Strikeforce not being able to present any challengers… which actually is a problem with Josh Thomson not wanting to re-match right away. Larry Pepe may have been onto something with the idea of Strikeforce booking Pat Healy for a title shot, since that’s the way SF rolls these days.
(There are now reports that HDNet screwed up about what Aoki said for a “big fight” announcement. Or, they inadvertently let the cat out of the bag…)
For me, however, the ultimate symbolism about DREAM and where it stands right now as a serious promotion came in the form of Jake O’Brien. Here’s a guy who was given a lifeline to fight in a semi-respectable organization in Japan after being a UFC washout. He gets a chance to face Gegard Mousasi at 205 pounds. Mousasi looked terrible against King Mo last April. In fact, Mousasi looked so bad that there were people calling into Sherdog radio wondering if O’Brien could actually use his wrestling against Mousasi and pull off the upset. (Jordan Breen thankfully shot that theory down.)
So, with no real big career prospects in the American MMA scene, what happened when Jake O’Brien showed up in Japan? He showed up at 226 pounds, over 20 pounds more than the weight he was slotted at for the fight. This was the classic “I can’t make weight, so I’ll show up and my opponent won’t turn down the fight anyways” mentality, in my opinion. O’Brien ended up cutting down… to 212 pounds. Mousasi took the fight anyways because he refused to fight Ricco Rodriguez, who had been told by DREAM that he was going to fight Alistair Overeem.
Naturally, when the fight started, O’Brien went for a shot and got choked out in short order.
Topics: DREAM, Japan, Media, MMA, Zach Arnold | 38 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
When exactly was it established UFC LWs are above all LWs? I mean, if you wanna argue that BJ Penn and Frankie Edgar are the one and two of the division, that’s one thing, but what’s your basis that the UFC has the best overall lightweight division? Cos it certainly couldn’t be Florian’s fight with Penn or Maynard’s fight with Nate Diaz. Aside from that, you’ve got Sherk, who hasn’t fought in a while, and Sotiropolous who hasn’t faced a top five fighter yet, and not a single other guy who has shown themselves to be on the level of Melendez, Aoki, Alvarez, and arguably Thompson & Kawajiri.
I mean, are you legitimately saying that if Kawajiri won, it would move him up in rankings, but by Aoki winning it proves that neither of them are top level fighters? Because Aoki lost a fight? That’s essentially as if I were to say that if Penn beats Edgar next month, it will prove that neither are top level fighters because they both lost and then rank Melendez above both of them. That would be pretty ridiculous, but it’s essentially what you’re saying here.
He is saying that the DREAM Champion beating the DREAM #1 Contender after losing to the Strikeforce Champion proves that UFC fighters are better. It is a silly and illogical viewpoint, but this is a post about MMA outside the UFC, so of course the angle is to be ruthless negative about DREAM (and throw in some mocking of Strikeforce for good measure. Oh that Larry Pepe! What a card!)
Gilbert Melendez would ROFLstomp Frankie Edgar. And I’d give him a great shot against BJ Penn who has looked slower and slower with each fight.
The Top 5 Lightweights in the world are Edgar, Penn, Maynard, Florian, and Melendez. Hard to see anybody else ranked up that high.
Japanese MMA is so badly lately. They are constantly failing against American fighters that they no longer get any sort of benefit of doubt.
For Melendez to deserve the 5th spot, Aoki should be right beneath him at #6. Do you agree with that?
Why don’t they book Thomson vs. Aoki as a Strikeforce Lightweight title eliminator? Honestly, Aoki fighting Melendez again so quickly is pretty pointless and at least you’ve got some sort of redemption back story for both entering that fight (plus it’s a fresh match-up).
Why would DREAM agree to sending their contracted fighter to be in an “eliminator”? Doesn’t that make them look weak that before they can even challenge, they need to beat some guy no one cares about?
Look, Aoki doesn’t speak english. He’s not even popular among Japanese fans. Who was going to go wild over Aoki?
Actually, I was in the Saitama Arena yesterday, and Aoki is really popular in Japan. Trust me.
Not many cheers for Kawajiri at the beggining and we know what happened at the end.
If ‘looking weak’ was really an issue, why even risk Aoki losing to Melendez in the first place? And Thomson was the Strikeforce Lightweight Champion before Melendez so you’re not throwing him in with a middle-of-the-road guy who risks completely killing him dead in the water.
And considering that Aoki lost to Melendez already, I don’t consider him a champion even if DREAM didn’t put his trinket on the line in the Melendez fight (just like Fedor losing to Werdum in a non-title fight or Santiago against Khalidov in their first fight). And DREAM has no real way to spin that Aoki is a ‘real’ champion (beyond being a regional titlist) since he did lose to Melendez the fight before in one sided fashion.
If DREAM refused to put Aoki in with Thomson, Strikeforce could just go “OK, we already have our LW champion beating your top LW so that’s fine with us”; Strikeforce has the bargaining power in this situation since Aoki has the L to avenge, not Melendez. And, in addition, the rematch would draw flies so Strikeforce has even less reason without building up Aoki on US television as being worthy of catching eyeballs again.
If ‘looking weak’ was really an issue, why even risk Aoki losing to Melendez in the first place?
Because claiming a win over Strikeforce’s champion on US Network TV was enough of a promotional risk for them to justify the risk? What is the positive of fighting Thomson that justifies that risk?
And considering that Aoki lost to Melendez already, I don’t consider him a champion even if DREAM didn’t put his trinket on the line in the Melendez fight (just like Fedor losing to Werdum in a non-title fight or Santiago against Khalidov in their first fight). And DREAM has no real way to spin that Aoki is a ‘real’ champion (beyond being a regional titlist) since he did lose to Melendez the fight before in one sided fashion.
He’s not a champion anyhow. Who the hell cares about these belts? You should know better.
If DREAM refused to put Aoki in with Thomson, Strikeforce could just go “OK, we already have our LW champion beating your top LW so that’s fine with us”; Strikeforce has the bargaining power in this situation since Aoki has the L to avenge, not Melendez. And, in addition, the rematch would draw flies so Strikeforce has even less reason without building up Aoki on US television as being worthy of catching eyeballs again.
This assumes that there was ever going to be a crazy wild audience for the fight ever under any circumstance. Which frankly isn’t so likely, as far as I’m concerned. For all we know, Strikeforce is trying to pass off paying Melendez onto someone else. And honestly, I don’t really care if that’s the case. I guess I am crazy in that I prefer to watch fights than root for fat old guys and their youtube shoots.
“Because claiming a win over Strikeforce’s champion on US Network TV was enough of a promotional risk for them to justify the risk? What is the positive of fighting Thomson that justifies that risk?”
Why should a Japan-based promotion care about US TV exposure unless they plan on crossing over to the US market? The only benefit would have been the Melendez W and taking back the Strikeforce LW belt (although I imagine Strikeforce had options on Aoki if he won, unless they’re complete boobs).
“He’s not a champion anyhow. Who the hell cares about these belts? You should know better.”
Who’s not a champion? Aoki? And I know the belts are worthless, but if you’re going to award trinkets at least be consistent in having a ‘fighting champion’ and not guys who need to beaten in order to get a shot at the trinket – if you beat the man, you are the man, simple as that.
So much of Aoki’s initial failure against Melendez was Gil taking advantage of the different rule set and environment. Aoki pulls guard? I’ll run him into the fence to negate it. Aoki gets guard in the middle the cage? I’ll put my knees down and stall holding his wrists since he can’t upkick me. Uh oh! Aoki is crab/spider walking across the cage to grab a leg! Oh good, the ref stood him up. Probably one of the few fights I would definitely predict a very different outcome in Japan vs USA.
I would pay money to watch Aoki fight in the UFC with elbows. He would be cut up beyond recognition within 2 minutes.
Beyond recognition? That’s some bad cuttin’.
You’re telling me!
It is sad how irrelevant Japanese mma has become. I remember back in my youth when Pride was the shit and could claim the best heavyweights, the best 205ers, and by far the best events. The theatrics of Pride have still yet to be captured by the UFC; there is nothing like the grandoise entrances of the fighters coming down the elevated stage, of giant stadiums filled to the brim to see Saku, Mirko, Wandy, Fedor, and of course Bob Sapp.
I remember listening online to live Pride shows on some program….. I think it was called Paltalk, but that might be wrong. Anyway, those were the days. It really seemed sort of underground here in the U.S.
A lot of padded records in Pride. And a lot of weird things going on with the matchmaking.
Mauricio Rua had an impossible line-up of challengers given to him in his win of the 2005 Grand Prix. And yet Cro Cop had not 1 fresh top level Heavyweight on his path to winning the 2006 Open-Weight Grand Prix.
It was theatrically breathtaking and epic. And the best thing for it’s time. But it without question had major faults. I stayed up for many of the cards back in the day. Waiting for random updates on Royce/Sakuraba was an edge of your seat experience, despite the real lack of communications. A very different time.
“Mauricio Rua had an impossible line-up of challengers given to him in his win of the 2005 Grand Prix. And yet Cro Cop had not 1 fresh top level Heavyweight on his path to winning the 2006 Open-Weight Grand Prix.”‘
I don’t think these two points get expressed enough.
1. for the context of just how frigging awesome/impressive Shogun was at the time. He fought and destroyed (with the exception of 1 fighter) 4 top 10 light heavyweights in under 1 year. I think Rampage was probably the #2 LHW, Arona #4, Lil Nog #6 and Overeem #9 (just going off the top of my head for time sake). It’s crazy to think he went from there, to the lows of his first two UFC fights, and back to where he is now as the top LHW in the world….I still wonder if we’ll ever see *that* Shogun again, but given time, different rulesets and injuries that might be like waiting for the “Old Vitor”.
2. Cro Cop was giving the easiest run out of any fighter in that tournament by far. Minowa, Yoshida (really not sure how “good” he really ever was but this was around the time he really faded to black), and blown-up and juiced to the gills LHW in Wanderlei and then Barnett (who he’d already beaten once and who’d had a questionable win over Nog to get there).
– PRIDE was desperate to rebuild Cro Cop for another go round against Fedor and CC and let him fight all non-HW’s while guys like Nog fought only HW’s (tho Zulu is a pretty big “gift” opponent).
Here’s a motivator for Gilbert…
If Gilbert beats Aoki in Dream he would be then be champion of Strikeforce and Dream.
Has there ever been a champion in 2 major orgs simultaneously?
Were he to later match with Alvarez and win, Gilbert would then be the champion for 3 organizations and the undisputed #1 LW.
Motivating Aoki, who as we saw with his fight with Crusher and Alvarez only needs to get hold of a limb to win, it’s another chance to get a hold of Gil in the ring with ten minutes to work instead of 5.
I’ve been laughing reading the comments on various websites of people who actually believe Aoki would beat Melendez in a rematch in DREAM. I guess some fans still need something to hold onto now that Fedor lost.
It’s not a surprise that Aoki looks like fighting royalty over in Japan but looks tiny and lost on American soil. The fight game is at a different level here in North America.
Yeah…because Kawajiri is such a can. Same guy Melendez barely(or didn’t) beat, and all those other top 10 guys Aoki beat don’t count because he lost once in North America.
The fight game is simply different in America. Weight cutting is a huge thing in the US and what trips up a lot of fighters who fight in Japan and Europe. Fighters fight wherever promoters will put them.
I’m not really sure why it matters that Aoki lost to Melendez and why Aoki should be considered so much lower than Melendez, skill-wise. Aoki has terrible wrestling, which is obviously a bad thing against most of the UFC guys with a stronger wrestling background. Does that make him less of a fighter all of a sudden? His grappling is on a different level than most fighters, he simply met his foil in a solid wrestler who went into the fight with a better gameplan.
Why am I not surprised you see no difference in the way the fight would unfold despite no cage for Melendez to drive Aoki against, no ref that would stand Aoki up during his crab walk attack and upkicks when Melendez is using wrist control and stalling.
You’re probably the biggest non-astroturfer ZUFFA fanboy on the web.
Penn, lose and nobody complains, Aoki loose and everybody says he is shit….man thats normal for american fans.
All the fighters can loose, just laught when i see Machida still on the Pound for Pound rankings, and Fedor for one loose out of the rankings and all says he have to retire.
What we can say, the americans are spending the money for this sport. Im happy beacuse they are the only who pays PPV in the world, period.
There is a very big difference between how BJ lost and how Aoki lost. The former lost a very controversial decision (I had him winning 4-1), in a fight in which he clearly was not 100%. The latter was systematically embarrassed and made to look like horseshit. Aoki has no takedowns, no striking, and no physical strength. Melendez would literally beat him 100 out of 100 times. God help Aoki if he fights in a real promotion where elbows are allowed.
I agree with you about Fedor however.
You’re high if you think BJ won. He lost 1-4
It’s just American culture. Look at our media: they love building people up, but not half as much as they love tearing them back down a little later. Americans just have a reflex inside of them that automatically turns on people who get too big for their britches. So yes, any time a fighter loses after a long win-streak, the automatic reaction from most American fans is to begin the cliched “Well, I didn’t think he was that great to begin with.”
Aoki is a great fighter, he’s just way too small to be competitive against American Lightweights, who are probably closer to Welterweights. You’d be crazy to say Sean Sherk has more talent than Aoki, but Sherk would destroy him every time they fought no matter how lousy and half-hearted he gets because he’s probably 20 pounds heavier, for instance. Aoki in WEC’s 145 division would be more interesting than seeing him get out-muscled by American wrestlers.
Or maybe Gil and Alvarez would go to the UFC and be #1 and #2. Cause I’d both take odds on them to demo BJ who’s looked worse and worse with every fight. Hell he lost to Edgar who got heel hooked by Griffin. Aoki would have torn Edgar’s leg off and been UFC champ.
The show was alright. I know people are like “waaahhhh it isn’t PRIDE’s glory days” but fuck it, its never gonna be. This is what it is, and we’re probably better off for that. Amoussou getting exposed was some incredible stuff. Ishida finally dropping to Featherweight was great – I’d like to see him with Bibiano. Mizuno pulled off a huge upset, JZ Calvan is finally back (and I thought looked pretty good), and Aoki/Kawajiri has finally happened.
I think a JZ/Aoki III would probably make some sense booked along with Bibiano/Ishida for their super bantamweight title or whatever it is. If they are gonna do Aoki/Melendez II in DREAM, that’s fine too. Its still the best possible lightweight fight outside the UFC.
Aoki/Melendez II best outside the UFC? Naw, that would be Gilbert Melendez vs. Eddie Alvarez. Or Melendez/Josh Thompson III.
Thomson is deeply overrated at this stage. Dude was in deep trouble with Pat Healy and looked immobile when he rematched Melendez. That busted ankle/leg doesn’t seem to have come back 100% and I don’t think it ever will at this point.
As for Alvarez, he went head to head with Aoki and lost. Hasn’t beaten anyone since that justifies being ranked above either.
It provides true clarity about where the best Lightweights in the world are (UFC)
No, it doesn’t. I won’t begrudge anyone that conclusion, but this fight had nothing to do with it. Neither Aoki nor Kawajiri has ever fought a UFC lightweight, unless you count Takanori Gomi, or Caol Uno, or Yves Edwards in Shooto. And neither, for that matter, has Gilbert Melendez, unless you count post-UFC Josh Thomson or pre-UFC Clay Guida. It seriously shows absolutely nothing about this at all.
Agreed.
Nobody take the shoot that was the first fight of Aoki in America, maybe he was afraid of American “Caverman” fans, and thats a fact, compare audiences is big deal for Japanese.
Was the first time Aoki no fight with the spandex, and was his first fight on cage.
I think Aoki just need a little more, and he can be a force on U.S.A. In the first fight Aoki fights very timid, and that was his mistake.
If Aoki do the same of Kawajiri, in a rematch, i see Melendez without a foot.
I hope Jake O’Brien got paid well, because he pretty much fucked his chances of getting back to the UFC, when he was possibly just one stoppage-win on the indy circuit from getting another go with them. Prior to Dream, he was 13-3 with the only three losses of his career coming against Andrei Arlovski, Cain Velasquez, and Jon Jones. He had only lost to a former champion and a current #1 contender at HW, and the UFC’s fastest rising LHW star. You could easily make an argument that he was one of the top-10 non-UFC LHWs in the world. He had two straight wins since being cut, and prior to the fight I was thinking that even if he lost to Mousasi, he’d still be only one or two more wins away from getting back to the UFC as long as he didn’t get destroyed.
Not only did he get destroyed in 31 seconds, he showed up grossly overweight and didn’t come close to the LHW limit. In my opinion he went from being one of the most underrated Light-Heavyweights out there to a total washout. Damn, son.
On the other hand Dream has got to be happy with Tatsuya Mizuno winning. I don’t really see him as the sort of star that could be a draw to casual fans though unless he pulls off another massive upset, or is really charismatic or something.
Jake O’Brien going back to the UFC is some hilariously imaginative stuff. Dude’s shot went to hell after his back injury and at his best he was boring. You might as well be talking about how Pete Spratt is a win away from a new contract or something.
I didn’t know about his back injury, and I said he “was” a win away or so, not “is.” Dude only had to keep winning. If he wasn’t boring he wouldn’t have been cut in the first place, but when you’re legit enough, the UFC will sign you anyway. Also note I said he was arguably one “stoppage” win away, not one win away.
If his back has fucked him up and performances like the one he gave against Mousasi are what can be expected of him from now on, then yeah, he’s never going back.
I don’t think he was a win away. I think he was probably several wins away, at best. He’s just not a guy the UFC has particular interest in. If merely winning mattered, they’d sign Antonio McKee.