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Two credibility issues brewing in the MMA media
By Zach Arnold | May 4, 2009
I was told long ago by a copy editor that criticizing anyone by name in the media is a no-no, in that it only attracts heat and does nothing for you.
Then again, I’m not exactly afraid of drawing heat if I think there are legitimate questions to ask.
Luke Thomas at Bloody Elbow has long been a champion for UFC giving MMA blogs credentials to cover their events. I have been mostly on the fence on this issue, slightly leaning towards ‘no’ in regards to UFC giving out credentials to bloggers. For me, there are several reasons as to why I don’t think the MMA media deserves credentials and a lot of it has to do with some ethical questions in regards to the behavior of certain writers. Make no mistake about it — I am not here to paint the entire media sector with a broad brush and label everyone as completely unethical and lacking in integrity.
However, there are a lot of issues right now with the MMA media that really have caught my attention and I’m concerned about where things are heading. I wanted to highlight a couple of interesting situations that have been recently raised publicly that I think deserve some attention. I realize that a lot of MMA media outlets don’t like touching upon issues of credibility with others in the writing game, but I do think that it is fair game to highlight possible breaches of conduct when they take place.
At the end of this post, you will notice a few questions that I am asking here and I want to get your response to them based on the following two stories I am writing about here.
Penmanship
Approximately two weeks ago, I received an anonymous tip from someone claiming that they had found evidence that MMA Weekly writer Tom Hamlin was actually FC Fighter writer Steven Marrocco. The issue at hand here is whether or not the accusation was true or false and if it is true, did FC Fighter have any problems with this taking place?
The anonymous tipster claimed the following:
- The tipster said that if you listened to the voice on MMA Weekly video interviews of fighters and then compared it to the voice of Steven Marrocco on FC Fighter radio shows (access the archives here), it’s the same voice. Sample links: This MMA Weekly video interview and Marrocco’s last appearance on FC Fighter in February.
- On the MMA Weekly contact page, contact information for Tom Hamlin did not exist while contact information for the site’s other writers is there. For someone who has been writing updates and columns on the MMA Weekly site since May of 2007, you would think that he might be important enough to be listed…
- Articles appearing under the byline of Tom Hamlin have been appearing on the MMA Weekly site since May of 2007. If Marrocco was writing under the pen name of Tom Hamlin, it means that he has been writing for both MMA Weekly and FC Fighter for two years.
After we received the anonymous message, it was noticed that a similar message appeared on the MMA Weekly message board (containing similar evidence/claims). That message was shortly removed.
On the MMA Weekly site, articles using the bylines of both Steven Marrocco and Tom Hamlin are now appearing. Interestingly enough, a search for Steven Marrocco as the byline on MMA Weekly articles on the site’s archives shows that Marrocco’s name surfaced publicly right after UFC 97 (or when the anonymous tipster contacted us). Only one article (April 2007) previously appeared on the MMA Weekly site under the byline of Steve Marrocco.
We contacted both MMA Weekly management and also FC Fighter management for public comment on this story. We gave sufficient time to both parties to answer our inquiries and did not receive answers back from either party. This was a qualification for us to consider before even writing this post, as I did not want to blindside anyone before writing this post. Proverbially-speaking, I have no horse in this race. Ken Pishna is someone who has always been friendly to me (both in e-mail and on the site). Always treated me fairly. I personally don’t have a bad word to say about him.
Here is what we asked FC Fighter management in our inquiry:
- Were you contacted anonymously by someone who made the claim that Marrocco was Tom Hamlin?
- Did you contact MMA Weekly and ask them if this was true or false? If you did, what was the end result of this?
- If the second point happened, does FC Fighter allow its writers to work for multiple web sites or is content explicitly supposed to be exclusive?
Here is what we asked MMA Weekly management in our inquiry:
- Were you contacted anonymously by someone who made the claim that Marrocco was Tom Hamlin?
- Was the anonymous tipster’s claims true or false?
- What is MMA Weekly’s policy as far as background checks on writers and/or pen names? In other words, do you hire writers based on seeing them in person or what do you view is sufficient protocol to make sure that someone is on the up-and-up?
- Does MMA Weekly allow its writers to work for multiple publications/sites or does MMA Weekly want exclusive content only?
Who hires the writers at MMA Weekly?
If MMA Weekly got caught here on this situation (as an innocent bystander) and the claim that Marrocco and Hamlin are one-and-of-the-same, then why is Marrocco continuing to write for their site and why would articles continue to be posted under both names? Prior to the tipster’s allegations, there wasn’t content under the Marrocco byline on MMA Weekly — but did things change once FC Fighter staff found out what was happening here?
The next question to naturally ask: If Marrocco working for MMAWeekly was something that FC Fighter already knew and was no big deal, why is Marrocco’s name starting to appear after the anonymous tipster brought the issue up?
The twist — if FC Fighter was fine with Marrocco writing for both sites, then why the Tom Hamlin alias? Possible answer: FC Fighter was interested in exclusive content only. We know that FC Fighter pays their writers — therefore, if Marrocco was getting paid by both sites, was MMA Weekly sending him money under his name? Or is he getting paid by both outlets?
The story here: A writer possibly working for two web sites under two different names, and getting paid while one site potentially didn’t know that the other site was using a writer they hired. Double-dipping is the allegation from the anonymous tipster, in other words.
WAMMA bam, thank you ma’am
A second controversy that is erupting within the last couple of weeks has been the growing role of Sam Caplan as WAMMA boss (along with the growing role of bloggers within the WAMMA hierarchy). Caplan has been receiving heavy fire as of late because he was in Japan reportedly working on a co-promotional event involving WAMMA members. Additionally, Caplan and Five Ounces of Pain broke the news of Randy Couture’s divorce with Kim Couture. Caplan had stated that when he took over the position of being the boss in WAMMA, he would step away temporarily from his site.
Here is how Bloody Elbow characterized problems with Caplan’s recent behavior:
Do you see the problem here? A guy, in the middle of putting together a huge event involving multiple UFC competitors, is fanning the flames on the marital problems of one of the UFC’s biggest stars? And a Strikeforce fighter with whom WAMMA has a relationship? And no one is talking about WHY he’s writing this?
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My problem is really with the fact that Caplan stated he was taking a leave of absence from the site when he got on board as COO of WAMMA less than two weeks ago. The fact that he’s reporting gossip from unnamed sources about whether or not the Coutures are living together is secondary.
The role of MMA bloggers in a sanctioning body (WAMMA) is certainly a worthwhile issue to discuss. It does pose the following questions that should be asked:
- Are people who consider themselves MMA bloggers really journalists? Are they really truly writers?
- How many people writing on the MMA scene actually consider it their primary source of income?
- Should the answer to the second question be a determining factor in regards to who gets credentialed or not credentialed by fight promotions?
- What kind of value would you place on the work that MMA writers do in comparison to the kind of broadsheet press that UFC desires to reach out to?
When you have isses regarding writers (un)questionably engaging in unethical behavior, it becomes that much harder to take the calls seriously that MMA web sites and media outlets should get credentialed at all by UFC. Conversely, there also should be a spotlight on the behavior of media outlets who do get credentialed by UFC and those outlets should have their behavior and standards measured by a fair litmus test.
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Well, speaking from the end of the article, don’t we have a couple hundred years of “fair litmus test” to draw on, in the form of ethical journalism standards?
Excellent piece btw. basically, to the bloggers clamoring for credentials, and the veneer of legitimacy that endows, you have to ask: “Do you deserve it?”
Zach, I wish we could buddy. Fighting the media, capital hierarchy, pop-culture (rock stars), inflated egos, will never work.
Zach, I wish we could fight the media, but some writers who follow the sport have no social education. From all of the points you bring up, nothing will change is what I mean.
Credibility/accountability are the greatest flaws of government because all power ends in Monarchy.
You raise a lot of fair questions. Of course, MMA Weekly is credentialed, so that takes a lot out of the first point.
I suppose one response to the second set of points is that MMA Bloggers shouldn’t be compared to Bob Woodward for journalistic standards, they should be compared to the mainstream MMA press that gets credentialed right now. The main actors there are Kevin Iole, Dave Meltzer, Franklin Mcneil, Neil Davidson, and Steve Cofield.
I have a lot of respect for Meltzer and Cofield. I don’t think Davidson really knows the sport he covers very well at all. I think Franklin Mcneil is beyond parody, and Iole (while improving) still leaves a lot to be desired, and has made Yahoo a subject of constant scorn by creating a perception that he’s Dana White’s mouthpiece.
The days of professional journalists are ending. Newspapers are dying all around the country, fewer and fewer press are at UFC events due to budget costs. The future of media will not distinguish, it will be a hybrid of opinion and fact in the form of something similar to blogs.
Obviously at that point the UFC has to pick and choose. You can’t just give a credential to anyone that starts a website, but if you limit it to newspaper reporters it will soon be Dana White and a group of fighters speaking to an empty room.
Other major leagues acknowledge the change in media, and have far more liberal blog credential policies than the UFC. All this while they actually have an active group of press. Hundreds of reporters, if not thousands cover the NFL, but they still credential blogs. About 6 or 7 real reporters cover the UFC. The media’s coverage of the UFC is so undeveloped that there’s a stronger case for issuing credentials to the blogs in this sport.
The issue where it really hit me was the Jon Fitch issue, where Iole was reporting White’s feelings and basically going to bat for him without asking him hard questions. And recently, when his column attacking Dana White had praise for his charity work. If we only have a handful of mainstream columnists, and over 25% of them are Kevin Iole and Franklin Mcneil, fans would be better served if knowledgeable fans of this sport were given access.
One other issue, I think the full time pay thing is an interesting standard, but you should know as well as anyone how problematic monetizing an MMA website is.
By that standard you’d have to put yourself on food stamps to be worthy of a credential
The first quote attributed to Bloody Elbow is from a reader and not a member of the staff.
With radio and newspapers dying, the importance of bloggers increases every day. Clear Channel recently laid off 590 people and we hear about another paper closing almost daily. The UFC pretends they’re this macho organization but get their feelings hurt too easily. They should issue credentials to bloggers. Blogs are how young people and tech savvy people get their news.
I got that same email about the FCFighter/MMAWeekly guy. I really think it was a dude with a vendetta just looking to mess with those guys.
I think the question to ask when discussing UFC credentialing bloggers is what do the Big 3 sports do? Do they credential bloggers?
I have heard Matt Mosley, an NFL blogger for ESPN, state on the radio he has been refused credentials by the NFL specifically because he was a blogger. Does anyone think that the NFL, NBA, or MLB would credential guys that run blogs and sites like those that cover MMA?
The answer is no.
Bloody Elbow is just a horrible site. Great in concept, horrible in execution. I will say Mike Rome is not somebody I have had issues with at Bloody Elbow.
There is a true mob mentality amongst their moderators. I have posted comments that have then gotten bashed by 2 or 3 moderators at the same time. A good blogger will say what they have to say in their column, and let the piece speak for itself. They might need to clarify something with an update or make a VERY occassional comment in the comment section.
This is not the case at Blood Elbow. Many times somebody will post an opinion piece, and then they will have it out with people who disagree with them.
There is a big ongoing issue with their rankings, and I believe it was Kid Nate who even started deleting certain posts to win his discussion.
Don’t even get me started with Sherdog.com either. Their anti-UFC bias runs very thick through many of their columns.
The main problem is that there is no real money in MMA Journalism. Therefore, there is no reason for smart MMA Minds who have a journalism degree, to try and make a living at it.
I really don’t blame Zuffa for not having many of the bloggers at their events. I do think the UFC tries to control the flow of information a little too much. With that said…. The smaller organizations need the bloggers to help spread the word of their shows. The UFC doesn’t, and therefore doesn’t have to put up with their amateur antics.
As for WAMMA….. When will it go away. And bringing up dirt on “MMA Journalists” is not the issue…. I think a big spotlight needs to be shined on Sam Caplan and the guys from MMA Junkie to see what the motivation of promoting WAMMA is. WAMMA is bad for the sport.
I wouldn’t say bloodyelbow is a horrible site, but the way Kid Nate has been acting lately is pretty ridiculous.
MMAweekly changed after those canadian dudes bought it IMO.
I used to be an active member on that forum before Damon Martin showed up and before the sale.
After those two things the attitude over there changed. The mods started to play games with peoples forum accounts like suspending users with high post counts or who had been members for a long time. And then they’d tell you that they couldn’t unfreeze your account but helpfully suggesting that you sign up for another one.
Then I noticed a little group of the only people who still had there original post counts over in the fantasy league sub forum.
Just a bunch of shiesty petty stuff that wasn’t like that before.
The character of that site changed for the worse so I dont read it very often anymore.
And if they are up to some sort of tom foolery over there, it really wouldn’t suprise me at all.
my free OPINIONZ 4 U:
-MMA Blogging isn’t journalism. Yes, that means virtually none of us are journalists. And very few people write valuable pieces. I don’t portend to be writing super valuable pieces.
-You’d swear that all media is dying except the internet. Except is isn’t. More people watch Around the Horn than read articles on Sherdog on a daily basis. People like to talk about how the MMA world revolves around blogging because it makes them feel important. Almost none of the “casual fans” read our crap. If they did, they’d think it sucked and would go back to reading the occasional ESPN.com blurb.
-Most of the bloggers want to make this a job. They want to be paid for OPINIONZ 4 U. They want this to get them backstage at fights. They want buddies who are fighters (who can be their occasional scoop). They want to work for promoters. When Luke Thomas says he deserves credentials, I laugh. Maybe the guy that posts articles for Affliction’s website deserves them too?
-The rankings thing is just funny. Rankings don’t matter and aren’t serious except when they are. No one wants to influence the sport except when they are trying desperately to position themselves to be the most influential force, which they aren’t but they are. Its not their ratings but they are. You get all of that logic and more in roughly a couple paragraphs reading those endlessly hilarious defenses at BE.
Organizational Rankings are okay and can have some merit.
Overall Rankings are borderline silly. The type of schedule a fighter gets in the UFC is completely different then in DREAM, and is completely different then in the rest of the sport. Not to mention many organizations have different rule sets.
Pound 4 Pound Rankings are absolutely pointless, and every second they are discussed, is a waste of a second in that person’s life. Asking who is better in the P4P Rankings, Fedor or GSP, is like me debating who the better Jedi Master was…. Mace Windu or Obi-Wan Kenobi. It’s all fantasy.
On a side note…. Tom Atencio is basically saying Dana White acts like a fighter so he should fight. And some people agree. I hope Dana White wants to be a fighter. Just like I hope David Stern wants to play in the NBA. It is that sort of passion that makes them great leaders for their sports. However, they should never cross that line like Tom is doing. Once you are a promoter, you should not be fighting anymore. It blurs way too many lines.
So not only are the bloggers a bunch of amateurs…. So are the MMA promoters…. like Tom….
I will say this much: Steve Marrocco’s pieces are the easiest to edit.
“I wouldn’t say bloodyelbow is a horrible site, but the way Kid Nate has been acting lately is pretty ridiculous.”
This.
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=1&thread=1455194&page=1&pc=43
Kid Nate seems to be making Dana’s case for not credentialing blogs. Who wants that pretentious douchebag walking around backstage?
Get cancer indeed.
Atencio fighting is hilarious. Seriously. The fact that Dana White hasn’t fought yet and probably won’t actually makes him come off a bit better than Vince McMahon, which he needs.
I have no desire to further expound on BE, as most people have said what I feel. If you even kind of know me, you know I can’t stand what it stands for and the content, outside of Mike’s stuff. I’m simply not a fan of giant copy and paste sites overloaded with lowest common denominator commenters.
If I wanted to deal with that I’d post on the Underground still or Sherdog.
“Should the answer to the second question be a determining factor in regards to who gets credentialed or not credentialed by fight promotions?”
In addition to the income question, I would also like to see credentialing hinge on the journalistic qualifications of the blog’s staff. Having at least one or two people with actual journalism degrees or experience in the field should be a must. Most bloggers are just shooting from the hip with no background in journalism whatsoever.
It’s a larger issue dealing with the “new media” (internet content), and whether internet writers should be taken as seriously as “old media” (newspaper, magazine, TV and radio) by the public.
Personally I don’t believe a blogger is a journalist. Journalists do investigation beyond reading a bunch of articles and then writing their opinion on it. They go out and interview people and spend more than a few hours investigating. At best bloggers are Op-Ed writers.
As far as the “MMA Media”, since the majority of it consists of quoting a few paragraphs from a news story and then writing their own paragraph under it giving their opinion, I do not call that journalism in any way. And very few MMA websites go beyond that. MMAWeekly and Sherdog are the only two I can think of off hand who never give the “my opinion on this quoted news blurb” route. There’s nothing wrong with doing that, but you’re not a journalist.
Holy FUCK @ that link. Kid Nate is such a giant bag of dildos. He has had little bitchfests on my site over stuff not even aimed at him or BE. Guilty much?
Plus the huge head. Hey Kid Nate, you are a fucking blogger. You don’t matter. Grand scheme of things? You are some dumb kid using a screen name on the internet to talk about guys sloppily punching each other in the face? This is why everybody thinks BE is worthless.
Sorry for going off in here, Zach, but wow.
In addition to the income question, I would also like to see credentialing hinge on the journalistic qualifications of the blog’s staff. Having at least one or two people with actual journalism degrees or experience in the field should be a must. Most bloggers are just shooting from the hip with no background in journalism whatsoever.
Seriously. Why do people need to get credentials if all they plan on doing is live blogging and giving weights? No one needs to see liveblogging anymore. Everyone who doesn’t buy the PPV is still seeing it these days, probably in real time.
nice article zach, i was a bit dismayed at the lack of any ‘creative’ content lately, but you’ve restored my faith.
if bloggers get credentials, what would they be able to provide that they don’t now? they do interviews, get inside scoops, etc. if they get credentialled, there is a bigger risk that they lose their independence from the UFC, especially with the tight restrictions UFC have on their reporting.
what site is good for MMA news now? I started on 5Oz but that’s junk now, MMAJunkie MMAMania were never my favorites, now people are ratting on BE, FL is not a serious news source
This is just another blog reader’s opinion but based on what I’ve learned over my 14 years of following MMA very closely, It doesn’t matter who is credentialled or not, bias is rampant and motives are obvious frequently. I do not trust any major media and most bloggers are just fanboys wanting good seats and access to the inside.
I read and depend on info from people I can trust. Fight Opinion and Zach is number one -he is not always 100% correct and non-biased but there is always a wealth of information and knowledge that I don’t see elsewhere - no contest. As a ‘blogger’, he doesn’t have to be concerned about stepping on anybody’s toes or hesitant about going public with a story that no one else will; the Steve Marrocco situation is a perfect example of this. Zach’s coverage of the Pride/DSE meltdown should be the pinnacle of how a sport should be covered, absolutely fantastic journalism - blog or not. Yahoo’s writers, Sherdog, MMA Weekly and no one else even came within sniffing distance of the biggest story in MMA history. I only say this to prove my point that you do not need a credential or ‘Journalism’ title with a big leaguer to be a stellar journalist/writer.
WAMMA is nothing more than a footnote to the sport. Until all the best fighters can actually fight one another, rankings are nothing more than opinion polls and fantasy sports fodder. I have zero interest in anyone’s rankings because a fight is a fight and anyone can win. And pound for pound is a joke to me. Just my opinion.
Another thing is that when the MMA bloggers who were able to get behind the scenes at Elite shows, they turned into total fluff writers (namely Sam Caplan) Who let them get away with a whole bunch of shenanigans before the October Kimbo incident was too exposed to write away.
A lot of those writers showed there that they can’t handle being given the proverbial “golden ticket” into an MMA organization. Real journalists are unbiased at all times, they don’t start writing fluff pieces about somebody who starts being nice to them. Dana would make all of them his bitches in no time if Gary Shaw did that easily.
Alan is right. There is absolutely no reason these people need to be at the events. Heck, with all the information out there, I could write those articles for ESPN about what happened at a game just by my internet access.
One thing Sherdog does right is that they keep the kids in a fenced in area…. Known as their forums. Even the new blog they have, doesn’t allow for comments. Very smart.
Loretta Hunt does a horrible job at interviews. Completely lacks any real thought process. A machine could do what she does.
What is also telling is if you watch the VIDEO interviews. I’m a big Yankees fan and I watch their post game stuff once in a while. I have also watched Red Sox post game interviewers. Those reporters ask tough questions, and get right to the point. Yes, sometimes there is a good laugh with a more popular player, but it is really down to business.
Compare that to a Sherdog Video interview. They throw softball questions. They goof around to a certain degree. It’s not very professional at all.
Even a sight like MMA Junkie, which I enjoy to a certain extent. Is it really journalism? The vast majority of their content is just putting together articles on Press Releases. Who is the next rumored fight? XYZ Organization made this fight official, so let’s write an article on it. Even their reporting on payscales is just taking a press release from the NSAC and putting words around it.
Mark above is right…. This isn’t just a MMA issue. This is a changing of the guard from the old media system to the new media system. It’s interesting to see how it plays out. Not with MMA, but there are bloggers out there for other topics who I would consider just as reliable as regular newspaper or magazine reporters. However, that is not the case with MMA.
Is it me or has the MMA online media landscape really taken a nose dive in the past several months?
Every MMA fan, forum poster, guy who thinks there money in the online MMA media game has started up his own website or blog? Not to call anyone out but I will mma madness, pro mma , mma mania, mma news etc the list of pointless mma media sites goes on, on. While I was typing this post a new site just popped up
Just because you can copy and paste articles from other sites doesn’t mean you should get your own web address Just because you have a buddy with html knowledge doesn’t mean you should start up a site
The market is so oversaturated. The madness must stop. Bloggers do not deserve credentials to the UFC, if you cant cover the sport without credentials your just a journalist. Make it work and quit whining about it
I’ve narrowed my MMA daily reading to Fight Opinion, mma junkie ( they actually break stories and produce original content, what a concept?), mma payout ( a blog with a purpose), si.com ( thought they don’t update nearly enough) and sherdog (just out of habit more than anything)
5 oz has went to hell since Caplan started to ignore it, mma weekly is just going through the motions, Bloody Elbow is a train wreck (sometimes you have to rubber neck) and lets the prisoners run the asylum, and sherdog has been getting weaker and weaker since Gross left and they let Brad McCray go in favor of fight network cast offs. There attempt at a blog is laughable
Just my 2 cents, am I totally off base here?
Jason, I think you are exactly correct.
As a dude with a blog who can get credentials to anything not UFC, I can honestly say it more or less comes down to who do I know in the area who would like to go to a show and do a write up for it the day after. If there was anything nearby you bet I’d be there.
We are all just fans, and most bloggers just don’t have any sort of ‘journalistic integrity’ because, well, there doesn’t have to be. Take what you can get, the fact that a bunch of guys sitting at home on their laptop can be granted access to just about any MMA show not run by Zuffa is astounding when you think about it.
Plus, yeah, we all have our biases. I love the crazy, over-the-top Japanese MMA stuff.
so the arguments are “journalism is dying anyway”, “there’s no money” and “we’re all biased no matter what”? apologies if i missed anything.
I still believe that there’s a niche for sports writers to learn about MMA and write well. A good journalist is a good journalist. The big problem people run into is having no knowledge of what editorial standards are, and no editor to enforce them. we lose that, from a broader view, to our society’s peril.
I have no problem with actual journalists reporting on MMA. As long as they do their homework, and a lot of major outlets have gotten into this.
Most bloggers just.. Have no credentials to be doing anything serious. I have a creative writing degree and make no attempt to pretend I know a damned thing about journalism.
“Plus the huge head. Hey Kid Nate, you are a fucking blogger. You don’t matter. Grand scheme of things? You are some dumb kid using a screen name on the internet to talk about guys sloppily punching each other in the face? This is why everybody thinks BE is worthless.”
No, you and your sad ilk of unaccomplished hobbyists think this. If our partnerships with USA TODAY and the exponential growth in our traffic tells us anything, it’s that only a very small handful think BE is “worthless”. If you’re looking for a site that contributes next to nothing, yours has to be on the short list.
We are for sure not perfect and Nate fucked up. I’ll have to handle that. But just because you can’t turn your efforts into anything doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t. Maybe BE withers and dies on the vine in the near future and that’s something I’ll have to live with. Ok, fine. But don’t let your own negative perceptions about what is and isn’t possible color the entire landscape. If I had listened to view points like this two years ago, nothing ever would’ve been accomplished.
Seriously, cheer up, fellas. Hard work actually does pay off.
It’s tricky really. I don’t really consider myself a journalist personally. I’m a blogger. I write about the sport because I enjoy doing it. Trust me, I’m not in it for the money by any stretch of the imagination. Were I not doing it for BloodyElbow I’d be doing it somewhere else, even if just on some blogspot page I threw up.
But at the same time once a site reaches a certain point of visibility there is a need to be a little more professional in your behavior. Don’t post rumors as facts, behave like a professional with the readers and other sites…etc. I am very much a flawed human being and I have on numerous occasions lost my temper in the comments with our readers (mainly when they twist words to make them fit what they WANT me to be saying) and that is something I need to work on. It’s not in keeping with the “professional” behavior that I try to live up to personally and all I can do is work to be better.
So I guess do I see myself as a journalist? Not really, no. But I do think there are standards that I should try to meet due to the visibility I get on our site. I also hope that I never become one of those people who claims to be a journalist until I get called on my shit and then fall back on “BUT I’M ONLY A BLOGGER!” Blogger and professional don’t have to be mutually exclusive.
Luke,
It’s almost as if this USA Today deal has gone to the bloggers heads over there at BE. Kid Nate cited it and so have you. Kind of tacky. Just because you are in a newspaper, doesn’t make anything you do have more justification. Same with Sherdog. None of the large news institutions know anything about MMA, so they outsource it based on the little knowledge they have. This is why Sherdog does ESPN and BE does USA Today rankings. If either really cared about the sports, they would be doing it in-house.
And it’s not about hard work. It’s the style of news that is being given. The vast majority of your content is just cut and paste with a few extra added comments. Even your rankings which everybody over there at BE want to take so much credit for…. Is just a compilation of other rankings. That isn’t value added content. That is just a lot of free time on somebodies hand.
And like I have said before, the people posting the content over at BE are out of control. Kid Nate is a major example of this, but it is more then him. People are constantly bullied around in the comment section if they don’t agree with the BE way of thinking. That’s not way to run a blog, and isn’t very professional.
Really, there is a complete lack of standards on your website. The people posting the content should not be allowed to post in the comment section unless there is absolutely great reason to do so. Look at Zach Arnold here. He very rarely gets involved in the discussions. That’s the way it should be.
As someone who remembers the “glory days” of pro wrestling “news” sites in the late 1990s, I don’t see a bunch of difference between those and the MMA sites of today.
You had a few select people, who actually got respect, breaking news (Dave Meltzer, Wade Keller, Bob Ryder) And dozens and dozens of wannabes who would just cut’n'paste their news stories, throw a little opinion underneath and call it their own. And every “story” they broke was purely speculation and/or lies for attention. Sound familiar?
The difference is, none of them were delusional enough to believe Vince McMahon should let them backstage at WWE PPVs.
45 huddle,
it’s tricky. One of my favorite things with the site is interacting with people in the comments and we do get a lot of people saying they enjoy that we participate in the discussion. Is it different than a lot of other sites? Sure. But it’s how we roll.
I don’t agree with the idea that anyone is bullied around if not agreeing with us. Do spirited discussions happen? Yes, they do. Do we sometimes cross the line in our responses? Speaking for myself…yeah, it has happened. But one of the great lies about the site is that we delete comments to “win arguments” which I have never once seen.
When someone joins our site they agree to a set of rules. When one of these rules is broken, the comment gets deleted. A lot of times in the heat of an argument a reader breaks one of those rules (usually personal insults) and that comment gets deleted.
I know people are going to assume I’m lying so I’ll stop there. But I did want to note that personally I really enjoy discussing topics with our readers. If that got taken away I’d walk from the site without a second thought.
Oh Lukie, always the shookest of the shook. I’m not trying to be a giant hub, we’ve been over this. Not trying to be ace announcer of some indie fight league or host some college radio talk show. Its a blog to post opinionz4u and in the end, it doesn’t matter who likes it or doesn’t like it.
Your “partnership” with USATODAY means nothing, you know why? Because UFC still doesn’t give a fuck and recognizes your site as a copy and paste depot that legitimately does nothing of worth. If all the sites you copy and paste from aren’t worth credentialing, why is yours?
Seriously, get over yourself.
If you are as important as you think you are, your boy Kid Nate just blew that by giving you a pretty big disaster to deal with. He wished death upon a bunch of people like a little immature brat.
I imagine USATODAY wants to be associated with a loser like that.
Perez Hilton gets hits, it doesn’t mean Perez is an important or insightful person. It means people are stupid enough to read that site.
Mark is so right here.
Also I think Brookhouse is a decent dude and has come across as such in here. That goes a long way.
ugh…and I totally have 2 comments in this discussion…both of which start with “it’s tricky”
Great comparison Mark.
If USA Today knew anything about the sport of MMA, they wouldn’t even be putting in universal rankings provided by BE. It’s like combining NASCAR and Formula 1 Racers into one ranking system. I know that might be an extreme example, but it suits it’s purpose for this discussion.
I could see them having UFC Rankings, but that’s about it.
And I’ll give you an example…. The first link I posted on at BE was Fedor vs. Barnett. The article was written by Leland Roling. The article has 20 comments right now. 5 (25%) are from Roling himself. WTF!!! In general, this practice typically shows one of two things:
1. The author wrote an incomplete article and the comment sections helps aid them in adding clarification or content.
2. They are discussing or arguing with the other posters.
Both don’t exactly scream journalistic integrity, even for a blog.
I won’t harp on this anymore, but I think I’ve made my point.
“People are constantly bullied around in the comment section if they don’t agree with the BE way of thinking. That’s not way to run a blog, and isn’t very professional.”
You do realize there is more than one way to run a blog, right? Allowing (moderated) reader interaction gives readers the sense that their voices are taken seriously. It adds to the “community” aspect of BE. I don’t work for the site, but I enjoy their content and the way they run things.
Not defending your own viewpoints and letting them “stand alone” might be good for you (or Zach), but that doesn’t mean it has to be an industry standard. Why can’t people think outside the box a bit? If you don’t like that style, don’t go to the site!
Brent,
I see your point on trying to interact with the other people. However, BE can’t have it both ways. The two choices are:
1. They don’t interact with the posters as much, and treat it from a more journalistic approach. This way, they would have more of a case of being taken seriously when they want to get credentials.
2. Continue to interact with others, but lose a lot of journalistic integrity, and stop pushing for credentials. And just treat it as a fan website, which is what it really is at this point.
Which kind of brings me full circle to the rankings…. If they are a fan website…. Which is really what BE is…. They shouldn’t be providing content to real news publications like USA Today.
I think for one, something should be done to delineate what people consider a “real journalist” to be. Even outside of MMA media, I’d hesitate to call most sports beat writers “real journalists”. These guys, for the most part, write puff pieces geared for their readership and not intended for serious discussion. In other words, they do exactly what Iole and MMA bloggers do. MMA Junkie is basically the equivalent of an AP/UPI newswire.
As far as I can see, not a single MMA blogger or sports writer has emerged as a true investigative journalist within MMA; Gross and Hunt try but they’re not quite there yet. All we get are hacks at sites like BE and 5oz and MMAWeekly with a very light grasp of how to use English properly and real journalistic integrity or instincts.
There used to be a truism that failed journalist became sports writers. Sam Caplan was a failed sports writer turned MMA blogger. What — besides the fact that he blesses his readership with some of the worst manglings of proper English — does that say about him (and the rest of the MMA blogosphere)?
Well, since we’re all jumping on Bloody Elbow….
The attitude is a definite turn off. Bloody Elbow likes to make stories about themselves and make the story secondary in a lot of cases. Sorry, but I don’t care about any of you, I want the story to be the story. And people don’t like the holier than thou attitudes.
From what I’ve seen of Luke, he so badly wants to be adored by the online MMA community that he snaps at the first negative comment about him. People who really matter don’t care about every criticism, so if Bloody Elbow are as wonderful as they tell us daily, why do they care what some piss-ant commenter thinks?
Respect is earned, not given. If Bloody Elbow spent all the energy they do on editorials demanding acceptance as serious journalists and arguing with people who don’t like them, instead on putting up original articles, then they’d stand a better chance of earning respect.
I seriously think that option 3 of do what we do and let the site growth speak for itself…does exist. Which is NOT to say that simply because people read a website it automatically becomes good. That isn’t the case at all.
But, USA Today chose to work with us (I only bring this up as a part of the list…not to be yet another BE staffer touting the USAT thing), SportsBlogNation is credentialed by some MLB teams as well as the NHL and NFL..etc and they run their sites the same way as us with interaction in the comments, we’ve had credentialed staff members at at least one event by every major American MMA promotion, etc.
Again, please don’t mistake this for a “look at my big cock” type comment. I’m just saying that I do believe that there is a way to be a professional blog (oxymoron yay!) while still operating the way that we do.
Of course I want our site to get credentialed by the UFC for every show. But if that doesn’t happen because of how we choose to run the blog. I can live with that.
I guess we’ll not agree on it. But I do think that we can succeed long term with our style.
The difference between BE and other SBNation blogs, is that the other SBNation blogs seem readable with reasonable readerships that discouraging trolling within their own blogs as well as rival blogs.
BE is Sherdog in a blog format. Ironically, BE turned me on to the other SBNation blogs for the other sports I follow, but I still don’t bother with BE and all the dick swinging that happens over there.
(Since somebody has to say it)
USA Today gets zero respect as a newspaper. It’s known as a paper chain motels pass out to guests. The one contribution USA Today made to the world of newspaper journalism was putting color pictures in print. It’s a joke in the news community. Stop acting like you’ve equaled Sherdog partnering with Sports Illustrated, please.
And the endless bragging about partnering with a newspaper destroys your old argument of MMA needing to respect the internet because printed media is worthless today.
Mark,
To add a little salt to that wound….
USA Today is written at a 6th Grade Reading Level. The lowest of any national newspaper.
I also don’t know of anybody who actually subscribes to it. I know people who get the Wall Street Journal. Or the NY Times. But not USA Today.
You know what drives so many of the hits to Sherdog? You know what makes MMA.tv/mixedmartialarts.com tick? Message board posts. BE’s writers will never stop commenting because the message board like fashion in which comments are generated and managed is the traffic. That’s why the TUF liveblawg has been combined with the decidedly not MMA followup show as part of the discussion.
And the endless bragging about partnering with a newspaper destroys your old argument of MMA needing to respect the internet because printed media is worthless today.
What argument is there to destroy? Their rankings aren’t really their rankings, you know. Except that they are and that you should respect them or get cancer and die. Not that they’re taking it seriously. Certainly not as much as WAMMA, who wants to influence the sport and has financial interest! Well, except that they want to influence the sport more than others and need a disclaimer about who is paying them.
Regarding USA Today and their MMA coverage: can someone please tell me if Sergio Non is a man or a woman?
For those honest enough to answer it, there’s really only one question that you need to ask to deal with the credential problem:
Why do you want a credential?
If the answer is anything other than “To provide a high-level of reporting that would not be possible without one” then you’re not a journalist. I suspect that if most MMA writers would answer this honestly, the answers would be more along the lines of “To prove that I’m legitimate” or “To see the show for free.” What I haven’t seen from most MMA writers (including the ones who are credentialed for UFC shows) is that they are producing a product that they couldn’t otherwise, without the credential.
Sergio is a dude.
I learned a while back that there is very little money and absolutely no fame in MMA ‘journalism’…this is perfectly fine as it is a hobby of mine (and of the other writers on the site) to have some fun and enjoy covering the sport. Once people start believing that they are worth more to the scene without actually breaking important news or contributing thoughtful opinion pieces, everything falls apart and the attacks happen. Wishing cancer on someone on a forum for everyone to see? Yikes.
Kid Nate will need to deal with the fact that rankings are mainly worthless unless governed by people with true influence. I don’t bother with rankings because there are 4,000 people who don’t agree with just one spot on the chart and 4,000,000 people who just don’t care.
I will always enjoy MMA photography and design more than writing, but I know my role in the sport and I do my best to cover regional events and help legit MMA businesses by offering free or extremely cheap advertising, promoting products, and doing what I can go give back. It doesn’t make me ‘better’, but it might help the sport grow just a little bit. And that’s perfectly fine.
I should also qualify that the comment above was not about BE specifically and shouldn’t be construed as such. I happen to enjoy the site for what it is and rarely read the comments anyway.
The anti-BE rhetoric is in full force and I just don’t see where it comes from. I discovered the site when I was coming to FO as my primary hub for mma news, and gradually it has become one of my go-to’s for mma news, commentary and analysis…a main reason was that Zach seemed to have wane on homegrown content after PRIDE started going down the tubes, the huge yakuza fallout controversy and finally the sale to UFC and its bitter results.
BE presents a lot of viewpoints - some which are critical of UFC and a lot that are not - and it provides excellent insight into other organizations that few other sites even care to talk about. I cannot recall a time that I ever saw a BE staffer act unprofessionally - but I do recall many times BE staffers taking part in insightful and spirited debates and allowing others to do the same, even if they expressed atypical or minority views. Unfortunately for people like 45 they don’t run a UFC propaganda site or bow to the altar of Dana White on command and most thankfully they don’t have much of an appetite for bigots to make idiotic arguements about the appropriateness of slurs like “niggers & faggots”.
Keep up the good work Luke, Brent and the gang and keep up the good work Zach. Glad to see that you’re churning out some more content - any radio shows in the future??
Ever since Zach had to stop with his FO Radio shows, we’ve invite Zach to our podcasts, but he’s always ‘too busy’…just kidding.
Annie
I have never wanted credentials simply to see a show for free. It’s absolutely a perk of doing the job that in covering a sport more completely I get to be immersed in the live experience and anyone who claims otherwise is lying.
I grew up as a boxing fan and my grandfather had all these Bert Sugar books/articles and it always amazed me the depth that he could cover something while conveying the excitement of seeing it. So besides the fact that covering the undercards in depth is important from a complete coverage perspective I do think a lot is lost by not getting that personal FEEL from being at the event.
So yeah, I personally get that out of being credentialed. It provides for more rich and deep content to come out of us.
I don’t understand how Bloody elbow became the whipping boy here? Why is everyone letting the other sites off the hook? (Dennis Green)
BE is what it is. A blog, you go to it for off the wall kind of opinions, bright shiny pictures and now rankings that combine other MMA media ranking to form some sort of mega rankings?? That USA today publishes?
Brent,
I agree that covering the undercard and being able to report on the “feel” of the event are important, but both of those could be done from a paid seat in the arena. How do Sherdog and others do it now? What I want to know is what else would a credential help you do? The UFC keeps a tight grip on the fighters in the locker room, so is there anything besides being able to ask questions at the post-fight press conference.
I’m not asking this to be combative, I’m really just curious. Would the MMA media landscape look that much different if blogs were credentialed or would be still see much of the same?
It’s simple: because no other MMA site acts like they do, not even Fightlinker or Cage Potato.
I don’t remember seeing Zach Arnold storm into other sites to battle commenters saying he sucked.
I don’t remember Jake Rosen wishing cancer on anybody.
I don’t remember Josh Gross writing about how the SI deal justifies him as a MMA figurehead.
I don’t remember Ivan Trembow furiously defending MMAWeekly rankings.
I don’t wish ill on them, I’m not “jealous” of them. I just have a problem with them having such a lack of dignity and class while trying to represent MMA. (insert Dana White incidents here.) I don’t think that’s good for anybody.
Better yet, I know BE people have been at an array of live events. What coverage have they provided in the past that would establish why they specifically deserve credentials? What interviews are there? What insight gained? What analysis from on site?
I totally understand what you’re getting at. And yeah, post fight coverage would be the same as with a paid ticket. But the access perspective (for things like pressers) is important. And that rolls directly into access not just during fight night but in the weeks leading up as well.
But to be honest, I personally don’t think the MMA media landscape would look appreciably different at all. All I can do is be honest on that one. Other than how quickly things are posted (i.e. live, detailed reports aren’t possible from the crowd) you can cover the fights live with a pen and notebook in the crowd and write it up when you get home.
And to be fair I’ll say the Bloody Elbow writers (outside of Luke Thomas) have been very respectable here, and I don’t think any criticism is going to them. It’s only to Luke’s kneejerk reactions to negative feedback and Kid Nate’s constantly embarrassing incidents. I’d fire that idiot if I was Luke and wanted respect. He’s more suited for Fightlinker writing.
“and sherdog has been getting weaker and weaker since Gross left and they let Brad McCray go in favor of fight network cast offs.”
Gross was great, but Brad McCray…really? Someone dig up that Jordan Breen interview where he drops shit like McCray didn’t even know who Josh Thompson was.
I just wanted to add that I like the meta-rankings.
“and sherdog has been getting weaker and weaker since Gross left and they let Brad McCray go in favor of fight network cast offs.”-see post #24
lol Ive seen seen a drop off for sherdog since Hunt and Knapp took over the site
Guess I’m in the minority as far as Brad McCray support goes. I just think sherdog has gotten weaker since Gross left no matter who they attempted to replace him with
Wow.
This really turned into a bash BE fest. I think they deserve a little heat for occasionally acting like self-important twats, but I still enjoy their site and enjoy being able to interact with the writers/bloggers.
Sure, I roll my eyes whenever they get into one of their journalist/blogger arguments, or bitch about credentialing, or start waving around their USA Today deal as proof of their internet cock size versus other blogs, but that stuff is more of an annoyance than a serious problem. Kid Nate deserves to take a flogging for his most recent outburst, but despite it’s warts, I enjoy reading Bloody Elbow for the most part.
BE is just like any other internet community. You have to learn how to separate the wheat from the chaff and ignore the crap you find annoying/redundant.
“I just wanted to add that I like the meta-rankings.”
I despise rankings in general, so I’ll be honest and admit that the meta-rankings are some of the ‘chaff’ that I just ignore when I am on Bloody Elbow. All rankings are good for is starting arguments on the internet. And everyone knows the adage about winning internet arguments.
Maybe that’s why none of this stuff bothers me. I don’t read any of the rankings articles or comments.
you mean Josh Thomson?
And Bloody Elbow gets grief because they’re so in-your-face and obnoxious about, well, everything. Crank the obnoxiousness down to about a 7 on a scale of 1-10 instead of an 11 and they might not catch so much flak.
The set-up Sherdog.com has is what a journalistic MMA Website should be. They have weekely columns. Play-By-Play action. Video Interviews. A Radio Station. And they keep the fans in their forums.
It is in the execution that they completely fail. More specifically, in who they hire to do the job. Breem is good. The rest, not so much. Over half of the radio content isn’t even about MMA. The video interviews are typically pointless. The anti-UFC bias takes away from their credibility.
Oh, and they also have the Fighter Finder which is a fantastic reference tool.
If good people were put in charge of that website, it would be the one stop source of MMA news and information.
I have been a freelance writer in the MMA scene for over two years now. I have come across some of the ethical BS that you bring up in your article. I feel that the UFC should issue credentials. However, I can also understand the UFC’s point of view.
When I covered the Affliction card it was absolutely ridiculous how many bloggers were there, most from CA. However, for the two weeks after the event, I couldn’t find any news on it outside of the mainstream media or the established bloggers. So my question was, why are all these writer here? As I looked at their credentials i saw that most of them were bloggers.
Blogging is how I got my start on the scene and I am thankful for all the opportunities that I was offered by the various MMA organizations, UFC was definittely not one of them.
I feel that DANA White sees the bloggers simply as parasites, sucking of his teat. In part I can’t blame him, from my point of view most of the writers lack the basic writing skills to make there observations mildly tolerable.
i think that there need to be a quota for web site tachieve in order to get their media credentials, say 100,000 readers.
Pro boxer dies in Texas as a result of injuries incurred in a fight last week:
http://www.northtexasfisticuffs.com/home/2009/5/5/benjamin-flores-passes-away.html
Original articles such as this keep me visiting this site over and over again. Great work, if anyone deserves media credentials, its Zach Arnold.
I’m not sure how I feel about the dual identities of Tom Hamlin/Steven Marroco. Who is he really, Tom or Steve? He had to have known that he would eventually get caught; especially if he is featured on an internet radio shows. Then again, with the feeble amount of money journalists are known to make, can you really blame him?
The conflict of interest that is apparent in Sam Caplan’s role as a blogger for fiveouncesofpain.com and his role as the WAMMA boss is a bigger problem, especially considering the UFC’s refusal to participate in WAMMA. Perhaps Sam is trying to establish his website as being on par to Ring Magazine is for boxing, and with their “Ring Magazine” champion being similar to the WAMMA championship.
Just a thought….
This is a very thought-provoking topic…nice job Zach. While I recognize that there is a difference between a blog and mainstream press, I truly believe MMA bloggers know just as much, if not more, than the current MMA journalists in the mainstream media. This in and of itself does not mean anything, but I have always looked at a site like Sherdog as more journalistic than not. Another question to ask is who is doing the credentialling. MMA organizations have a lot of ground to make up to even be considered in the same breath as major sports leagues. All of the existing MMA organizations are tightly controlled to maximize profit. The sporting nature of the sport of MMA is secondary to this, interestingly enough. Therefore, the idea of requiring true journalists is somewhat amusing. If MMA organizations are going to require professionalism on the part of those they credential, they better be extremely professional themselves. Unfortunately, I don’t see this happening in the near future.
Sam Caplan really needs to abandon his site. How is anything his site says going to be taken seriously again? Even if he stops writing anybody associated with the site is going to be constantly accused of showing pro-WAMMA bias. And as we saw from his days as Elite’s online mouthpiece, the man doesn’t know how to separate the site from his employer.
Concerning WAMMA…
Let’s not just bash 5 oz’s here… MMA Junkie has multiple voters for the rankings, and they have a good number of articles they promote WAMMA as well….
It’s MMA Junkie’s one minor pitful at this point.
Mark — In the same vein, BloodyElbow cannot distance itself from UWC where Luke “LOOK AT ME, CREDENTIAL ME, LOVE ME” Thomas provides commentary for.
They made an incredible attempt to make Chase Bebe look bad for skipping a low paying indy gig for a decent paying Japanese gig. Hell, it is on his wikipedia page. It happens all the time for smaller events and while it sucks, it is a part of the business. Let’s face it, a fight in DREAM could mean a future in that promotion, a fight in UWC is about as big of a deal as any other smaller promotion that nobody will see (I know, streamed on Sherdog, who cares?).
If only Sherdog could reach the level of unbiased thought that 45 Huddle has attained.
I got banned by BE, but I still think its one of the best MMA sites out there, if not the best. But the other posters on here are right: theres a huge spread of the quality of the writers and moderators. Some I think ought to be credentialed, others drag the site down. Unfortunately for BE, the latter mean that BE will never, ever be credentialed, not until their standards are raised. Unfortunately, Luke is one of the problems in that he doesn’t recognize where the standards need improving.
Thats really the issue with credentialing of blogs, in that there is so much variety in the quality and bias of the writers. Thats why MMAWeekly has gotten through, IMO: even though their rankings suck, they try and maintain an unbiased perspective in everything they write, and when people bash their rankings, they shut up and take it.
The guys over at Bloody Elbow (mainly Luke and Nate) need to learn when to shut up. You’re not the first site to get criticism but you may be the first site who has every god damn writer respond to that criticism.
Seriously every time someone bad mouths BE there’s Luke & Nate to the rescue to defend their honour. But every time they try they just end up looking like jackasses.
Never seen anything like it.
Oh and “Get Cancer” seriously. “Get cancer” what in the hell? Hopefully Nate learns from this, maybe he’ll keep his mouth shut from now on. I can’t believe he wrote and read back “Get cancer” and thought it was smart. Wishing death on people, real professional.
When I first heard Nate’s voice on a radio show a while back I thought he sounded like he had something wrong with him. Seriously is this the case? It might excuse some of his actions and remarks.
Either way best get him to zip it. Before he causes more damage.
I don’t really have a problem with freelancers writing for multiple publications or working under pen names.
Is this really a controversy?
I always wonder if “Thomas Rios” is a real name. If you see an unfamiliar writer on FCF writing “3-tap symphony”, maybe that’s him.
“I don’t agree with the idea that anyone is bullied around if not agreeing with us. Do spirited discussions happen? Yes, they do. Do we sometimes cross the line in our responses? Speaking for myself…yeah, it has happened. But one of the great lies about the site is that we delete comments to “win arguments” which I have never once seen.”
This is funny to me because just yesterday, Nate made a post titled “Robert Joyner is not my friend”, which contained the same info as in Steve’s link above. I gave Nate my honest opinion, that he was being an egomaniac and his complaints were silly. He responded by calling me an “asshole” and banning me for “pissing off the moderators”. I would link you back to his comments, but of course, the entire post and all my comments were deleted once he realized nobody was flocking to support his lunatic behavior.
“but if you want to be a dick with me
that’s fine
we both know i’m a bigger dick than you are
and i’ve got a bigger megaphone”
As someone who has read BE.com since the beginning and contributed in many different forms, I was stunned that Nate would imply he is willing to bury MMAPayout because of a perceived slight. I figured the people who run BE were above that. But just by giving my honest opinion, I was clumped in with the “enemies” of the site and barred from posting (along with Rob).
To bring this back to the subject at hand: should people who conduct themselves like this be credentialed for major events? I would say no, of course not. Anyone who treats their influence like a weapon doesn’t pass the basic test of integrity, journalistic or otherwise. But there are some bloggers who would do a great job if they were given additional access.
On the flip side, Mike Rome is right about the “mainstream” journalists who cover MMA. Sure, there are decent writers like Dave Meltzer and Mike Chiapetta going to UFC events. But people like Kevin Iole who are de facto members of the UFC marketing team are walking punchlines who have no credibility with real MMA fans. I mean, the guy writes a fluff fighter profile before EVERY Zuffa event, without fail. And lets not forget that Yahoo Sports is also the online PPV provider for the UFC, and advertises that in the same space as the news and editorials.
If you were to ask me who should be credentialed for these shows, and gave me a choice between automatons like Iole, and bloggers like Leland Roling who have a precise grasp of the sport but not a background in journalism or an established media outlet to associate with… I’m going with LR.
Tomas Rios is for sure a real guy. Thankfully he’s also lowered the amount of unsuitable grammatical devices in his preview articles.
Smoogy is good for the sport. Keep the gifs coming brotha!!
smoogy, I honestly wasn’t around yesterday to see if that happened. I guess I shouldn’t say that no one on the site does because I honestly can’t speak for everyone. Not that I’m saying Nate did, simply that I wasn’t around to see any of that. I personally have never deleted a comment that made it look like I was “losing an argument” unless it broke a rule.
This whole situation sucks. That’s really where I’m at right now.
I kinda feel bad for Brent here, as he is a legit good dude and you can tell doesn’t like this shit that went down. I know I speak for myself here, but there is no way to blame you. Not everything on BE is bad, there is stuff on there that is good.
Do I like who you and Rome associate yourselves with? Nah. But its a gig writing about something you like in a place that is pretty visible and has a connection with a (shitty, mind you) mainstream paper.
Zach, as a former journalist, I see the Marrocco/Hamlin situation like this: if both companies were cool with the idea of Marrocco writing for both, then there should be no worries. I can see why he’d take the assumed name of Hamlin for one of them.
That being said, I do see the possible conflict of interest and “double dipping” here. My feeling is that “Hamlin” was either not getting paid for his work, or was getting his money under the table. Both publications had to have known that Marrocco/Hamlin were one and the same.
But what is strange is: why one nor the other will not come right out and say that yes, it’s the same guy? Could it be that one or the other has been caught out? Would it be embarrassing in some way for this to be confirmed?
I have never read the work of either “person,” but that may have something to do with it? Do Marrocco and Hamlin write from the same point of view, or do they conflict? If they are the same man, is Hamlin an “alter ego,” or is he being paid to take a contrarian point of view?
My further thoughts go to your concern about MMA bloggers being real journalists; if Marrocco/Hamlin took jobs at competing newspapers (say, the NY Times & Daily News), there’s no way he could do it for long. His cover would be blown, and his credibility would be that of Jayson Blair’s.
Honestly, MMA writing is still in a growth stage. It is going to be a while before credentials can be appropriately assessed to those who write knowledgably about the sport (Dave Meltzer for one, and there are others). But not every single blogger who crawls out of the woodwork should immediately think he/she deserves a nice shiny pass. That comes from work, a body of it, and respect from your peers. That all takes time.
Now…the Caplan issue: here’s another conflict of interest. He’s supposedly on leave of absence from his site, doing promo work in Japan, and he is also airing the Couture’s dirty laundry in public? At the very least, he’s going back on his word, and that’s not very smart.
FCFighter did not know this was taking place while MMAWeekly did know Steve and Tom were one in the same according to people I’ve talked to about it, but no one is willing to go on the record about it.
As far as the blogs go, they should not be credentialed. They’re not real journalists.
I started to delineate all the reasons I think Luke Thomas, Sam Caplan and others are egomaniacal fools, but it’s pretty self-evident. the two or three comments a month I’d put up on BE aren’t worth arguing with the ban, or making another account, or putting up another link to them (tho I know I’m nobody in the greater scheme of things). But that’s not what this is about.
To Joe at #84, you’re wrong. Some are. The media you’re practicing journalism in is NOT what makes you a journalist. That’s like saying “People who write for small-town papers are not journalists” or “Sports writers are not journalists”. A solid understanding of ethics, standards, and methods are what makes you a journalist, along with experience, curiosity, and an incisive mind. No one needs to ask permission to engage in journalism, but they do have to practice it in a way that meets an ethical standard.
Zach should accept people writing under different names, since there’s no doubt at one time he definitely read the Apter mags.
Garth, I didn’t say they weren’t journalist because they worked for blogs. I said they aren’t journalists, period, or least ones that practice journalistic ethics and maintain journalistic integrity. The majority of them literally take someone else’s news and re-write it with their name in the by-line. Most of them couldn’t write a grocery list, and definitely fail in producing anything worth reading.
Name me a blogger you consider a journalist and I tell you why they’re not.
You mean to tell me that all those MMA writers who do video interviews with fighters are not, in the immortal words of Bobby Heenan, “broadcast journalists?”
Blasphemous!
“Anyone who treats their influence like a weapon doesn’t pass the basic test of integrity, journalistic or otherwise.”
I love this quote. I am hereby compelled to appropriate it .
like I said in #24 way too many so called MMA news sites out there just copy and pasting it up
Most couuldn’t write a 5 word sentance if you spotted them 4.
MMApayout is lame IMO.
Tony: harsh!
I do’tn now wat ur talken about tho.
i’m confused how this turned into a BE bashfest…a lot of mma sites take themselves way too seriously and think copying and pasting is what real journalists do. i’m not a journalist…just a blogger with a passion to share my opinion about the sport i love.
…weird how things got so personal and now i know there’s no love between mma sites…
hey robthom
get clams,sir!!!
that’s right…i’m wishing shellfish upon you….
Garrison: Because Zach is talking about credentialing and Bloody Elbow are the poster children for that argument. Secondly, because half of the staff came into the comments section to defend their e-honor.
So he’s going under his real name now at weekly.
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=8723&zoneid=13
While BE/sherdog/et al might not be a fabled island of new online journalism worthy of press passes being handed out to them like candy I read them for more opinions and viewpoints into the MMA world. They each offer a perspective on news occurring on the scene that interests me. Now, if the opinion gets too self-righteous a la Kid Nate I’ll not consider it worth my time pretty quickly, but having more viewpoints coming from a similar interest in the sport is rarely a bad thing.
Credentials are a bit of a situation in the way they’re given and utilized though. As a sport MMA needs all the coverage it can receive from those competent enough to write about it. Unfortunately such efficacy and competence is lacking both on- and off-line in all sorts of ways. That shouldn’t mean that the public access to information on these events should suffer for it by necessity though, nor that credentials are an inalienable right for anyone with $5 for a catchy website name and a computer with an internet connection.
I love seeing a fan’s/critic’s/journalist’s point of view from events and how they mesh, as long as we always get those perspectives in as many forms as we can without negatively effecting the quality I’ll be happy. The balance must simply be reached to attain the maximum benefit for the fans and the organizations when it comes to the coverage - and that does exclude having the place so cluttered with semi-coherent ‘press’ that no seats are available for the event itself. Finding that balance between the press on both sides and the organizational hierarchy can be a tricky situation though at times.
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