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Is ‘mmalogic’ connected to Zuffa?
By Zach Arnold | January 29, 2009
Update: MMA Junkie and MMA Mania have posted information regarding Tom Atencio denying the reports.
So, Bloody Elbow is pushing a story that Affliction wants to make peace with UFC and that the MMA operations will soon be finished. Naturally, it’s curious that this type of ‘inside’ news would be broken on a blog as opposed to one of the independent sites (Sherdog, MMA Weekly, etc.)
The poster on Bloody Elbow, ‘mmalogic‘, is being pushed as a credible source on past MMA stories. As you will note from comments posted last September on Bloody Elbow, site readers over there started connecting the dots in regards to who the poster is.
What makes this interesting is that by leaking claims that Affliction wants to wave the white flag in terms of no longer competing with Zuffa that it all but eliminates any sort of leverage Atencio might or might not have if he is in fact doing this.
It’s no secret that Zuffa employees read message boards, blogs, etc. What is interesting is whether or not more and more UFC employees will start using blogs to manipulate the message they want the public to hear. The organization already has friendly broadsheet media outlets that aren’t willing to push back against them, and then you add on the generally UFC-safe Yahoo Sports coverage team, and what you end up with is a pretty sophisticated strategy to influence both hardcore and casual MMA fans.
If Zuffa employees are taking a more active role in blogs, then it certainly signals a rise in the way MMA blogs will be used as communication outlets for UFC, WEC, etc. and perhaps astroturfing in the future.
Topics: Affliction, MMA, Media, UFC, Zach Arnold | | Permalink | Trackback | Share This
Having our employees post on MMA blogs in an attempt to manipulate coverage sounds a little far fetched.
I hope you meant ‘your’ and not ‘our’.
Interesting. Also, that same post by mmalogic is quite ironic for another reason.
“If there were an IQ read out for each user I could better taylor[sic] my message so you could understand:”
Read out instead of readout is wrong too, but that’s not as glaring.
Heh.
Jokes aside, I’m sure Zuffa leaks information whenever and wherever they can if it’s beneficial for them to do so, but my gut instinct is that mmalogic is either hamming up his involvement with Zuffa or he’s doing this of his own volition.
It is an interesting question though, and makes me wonder if any diabolical geniuses work at Zuffa.
Apparently, Tom Atencio was just on Hardcore Sports Radio and said it’s all false. There are a bunch of kids on the Sherdog forum listening now, and the link is
http://hardcoresportsradio.com/
I haven’t been able to listen, but it’s worth checking to see if it’s true or not.
This is pretty disconcerting as someone who helps run one of the bigger MMA forums. Especially when there is a user who seems to post a lot of threads referring to this “Tom Leykis show” that Atencio is now saying he has never appeared on.
First, this is what I posted in the other thread, then I’m going to respond to what Luke Thomas just wrote on Bloody Elbow.
lol at Zuffa breaking the news of Affliction MMA’s death while hiding behind a psuedonym on Bloody Elbow. Anyone who has read Bloody Elbow’s comments section long enough knows that the poster called “mmalogic” works for Zuffa and is not even particularly good at hiding it.
Example: In the comments section of a post from a few months back, “mmalogic” wrote this: “Zuffa adjusted their sponsorship model from creating OUR own sponsors” (capitalization added by me).
When another user pointed out what “mmalogic” just said and asked if he’s Joe Silva or someone else like that, “mmalogic” responded with this non-denial and followed it with flattery towards his accuser: “I won’t say who I am but I will say who you are judging by your past comments and analysis … You either own your own business, have owned your own business or very high up in a business either in Marketing or Sales… Did I call it?”
When the original accuser responded by saying that he just graduated with a degree in marketing and finance, “mmalogic” responded with more flattery: “You got the head for it… try to hook up with a good consulting firm – you will do well.”
In this case, it’s easy to see how high-level executives at Zuffa would know so much about Affliction MMA’s pending demise, particularly if Affliction has contacted Zuffa to work out a peace deal. So, what do they do? They make a post about it under their “mmalogic” psuedonym to give themselves more leverage in the negotiations for the aforementioned peace deal (Affliction has even less leverage in negotiations if everyone is already reading about how little leverage they have and how their MMA branch is about to go out of business anyway).
A lot of people think that the UFC doesn’t care about blogs, but they must realize what kind of influence a very popular blog like Bloody Elbow has, based on the fact that they (Zuffa) are willing to take the time and effort to try to spread information and influence opinions by making posts under psuedonyms like “mmalogic.”
By the way, the URL of the aforementioned post (which contains the slip-up by “mmalogic” near the end) is:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/9/28/623407/more-on-the-financial-stru
lol, even putting aside how blatant it is in his comments, look at the previous FanPost blog entries by “mmalogic” (http://www.sbnation.com/users/mmalogic/blog):
Aoki not a top five fighter (in January 2009), EliteXC ratings are below CBS’ expectations and now ProElite people are looking for work, HBO is unhappy with the Affliction/Golden Boy partnership, Randy Couture to Headline UFC 91 (before it was widely reported), and a post about why Zuffa has no reason to co-promote with anyone. Like I said, not very subtle. I’m guessing they will try to be more subtle when posting under psuedonyms in the future.
Now, as a separate post about what Luke Thomas just posted on Bloody Elbow, I think he is misinterpreting the point of Zach’s post. I don’t think that Zach or anyone else is saying that Bloody Elbow’s “coverage is nothing more than a mouthpiece or distribution channel for Zuffa.” It’s not that Bloody Elbow is guilty of anything, it’s that this one specific poster “mmalogic” certainly appears to be a Zuffa employee from looking at the evidence.
As for Bloody Elbow not having any dialogue with the UFC, this is informal communication, but literally one post down from Luke’s, Michael Rome writes, “I have been digging at this story for the last 3 or 4 hours since I first heard it. I believe it to be true. A source at UFC informed that Lorenzo Fertitta was contacted today by Affliction looking for a ‘beneficial’ way out.” There’s nothing wrong with having communications with the UFC.
Also, it doesn’t take “some grand Zuffa scheme” for this to happen. “Astroturfing” is something that corporations have been caught doing in the past, it’s probably not that hard for them to do it, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they had other screen names on other sites doing the same thing.
Again, it doesn’t mean that Bloody Elbow has done anything wrong, and I don’t think anyone is suggesting that.
As for Tom Atencio denying that his MMA promotion is on the verge of going out of business, of course he’s going to say that.
Realistically, even before any of this came out today, I think the vast majority of people on here have thought for weeks that Affliction’s MMA division would be kaput shortly after their second show (if not before their second show).
It’s likely that it’s over except for the negotiations of how, and under what financial terms, Affliction will stop promoting MMA shows and will re-enter the fray as one of the biggest sponsors of UFC fighters. Zuffa has a lot more leverage than Affliction already, and they attempted to tip the scales of leverage in their direction even further with that post made under one of their psuedonyms — “mmalogic” (and I only use the plural form “psuedonyms” because it would be naive to think that if they’re using one psuedonym that it’s the only one that they have on any web site). Now Atencio is trying to tip the scales of leverage back in his direction by denying that they’re getting out of the MMA promotion business. In that respect, it’s no different than what Zuffa is doing, with the big caveat being that Atencio is using his real name in those interviews, while Zuffa made their post under a psuedonym.
mehhhh
Danna seems to know whats up on other MMA orgs months before it goes public.
he told Millen that PRIDE was going to fold on live radio a few months before it officially happened. Millen denied this of course.
he did the same thing with EliteXC and with Affliction. One thing about Danna is that he has a big mouth. He’ll say a lot of un-couth things that are pretty accurate.
So anyway, UFC doesnt require such manipulations to buy out a competitor thats worth -23 million at this point.
I have said Logic is a shill since I first saw him. He’s not some genius, (check his spelling, Cung Lee in an actual fanpost? come on), so its obviously not Joe Silva or somebody inside ZUFFA with any mover and shaker juice. (Unless he’s such a deviant mind he did that to trick people. I guess it could be Dana with his spelling and thought process, probably on his IQ level.) Its my belief he’s either a straight up shill working for ZUFFA as a desk jockey or he’s a casual acquaintance of Joe Silva. Something like his housekeeper that likes MMA and chats him up on it. I’m sure that ZUFFA has zero problems with him making up lies within the bounds of his free speech and he can sling shit with credibility due to breaking a couple stories.
I actually guessed Shogun was supposed to be on the UFC 72 card before it hit any of the major sites. Shit before it hit anywhere. I’d look like a genius if I had posted it anywhere but NS.net. All based off something I originally saw in the chatbox that used to be on Smoogy’s site. (maybe its still there and i haven’t noticed.) If that was the case I could sling as much shit as this guy and claim “credibility.” On that same note starting net rumors is easy. I also played a joke on everybody’s favorite whippingboy forum that Kid Yamamoto was at Penn vs Pulver to study Penn’s style for an upcoming bout with Gomi at “Pride Reborn.” What this guy does is easy
I don’t blame BE for posting it though… It might be bullshit news - but I don’t see it as their responsibility to completely verify something as rumor. Though I think they lend him too much cred.
^^^ too calify the point above, Dana hasnt historically needed back-talk on MMA blogs to get a message across. He is usually quite opinionated on the subject of the financial viability of his competitors.
Doem - The Fertittas are worth about negative 2 billion in cash right now. They probably have about that in equity probably just shy a couple hundred million due to the economy. I doubt they should be the first ones to cast stones. But they are great at it via shills on the net.
^^^
really? havnt heard that. A lot of vegas developments are going down the shitter.
but the UFC is profitable is it not? that would be the only thing that matters
Yes, the UFC itself is still hugely profitable. If I remember correctly from the S&P report, their net profit in 2007 was something like $65 million or $70 million. I would imagine that it was much bigger in 2008.
BTW Zack - on a completely unrelated note - you still sticking to that 20K PPV buys number? ?? ??? ????
Ed. — I believed the prediction going in and logically think it will be close to it. If it’s a number like 75,000 or something shocking in that range, I will publicly praise Affliction for manufacturing a high PPV buyrate without major television.
On Ivan’s point though - hugely profitable but still with I beleive 350 million in loans coming due SOON.
And the Fertitta’s have only equity to play with not liquid assets.
[...] Arnold is guessing that this could be the work of Zuffa. Luke Thomas says anyone who believes that is “wrong”. Oh [...]
skwirrl— Zuffa’s $350 million loan is not due for another few years. It’s basically a “better if sold by” date, although that certainly doesn’t necessarily mean they’re going to sell before that date.
Ed. — It’s $325M USD in loan and $25M USD in a revolving line of credit. If memory serves me right, the due date is 2013. UFC is a very profitable operation right now.
Ivan I really think those loans in combination with the separate loans on their new casino, (which may actually have to get paid off OUT OF POCKET), really could pose a large issue for the organization. They are very lucky that Lesner has turned into a license to print money. And that all of a sudden their PPV numbers have gone through the roof. Looks great for their credit rating. Lucky them.
Here is the person who posted the “Tom Leykis” story on our forum. Zuffa Mole #2?
http://forums.mmanews.com/search.php?searchid=113457
From a marketing standpoint it’s all about Consumer Perception Filters - knowing how to bypass or manipulate them.
What are Consumer Perception Filters? It’s how each of us look at a particular product (company or government) and what influences our opinion about it and ultimately whether or not we purchase that product (or thought). Common CPFs are; backgrounds, age groups, upbringings, cultures, religions, financial status… you name it.
An extreme example:
Take an average middle-aged man living in the middle of America. There’s a knock at the door, he opens it, and there’s a guy there selling gold watches from inside his jacket. “No way, fake, stolen.” Closes the door.
Guy walks back into his living room, turns on the TV, commercials are on. “Ha, yeah right, they’re just trying to sell me things and make me part with my hard-earned money.”
Still sitting in his living room, the news comes on… and they sell him a war.
So what happened? His preconceived notions of the guy at the door and the TV commercials filtered them out. But when the news came on, his filters went up and allowed the information in - he TRUSTED the source. He also wasn’t aware that his beloved nightly news on NBC was owned by GE - a war profiteer.
The most successful companies (and governments) are way ahead of the curve. Just look into Megaphone software.
Still don’t believe me? That’s OK. It’s not like the guys I work with started a debate on a woman’s forum over which tampon was more comfortable as part of our market research… ; )
The fact of the matter is that if you don’t know you’re being sold something, you’ll probably buy it.
Ironically enough, if mmalogic has exposed himself as a Zuffa employee, then he will be less effective in swaying opinion.
I have 2 sources at Zuffa. Both were people I knew outside of the company before they joined it. There is no dialogue between me and the UFC, the people there have no idea who I am. They refuse to credential me or even put me on a press release list. It’s promotions like Affliction and Pro Elite that credential bloggers and give them all the access in the world that are more likely to influence writers.
Is he a shill? I don’t know. I’m pretty sure he works for Zuffa in some important capacity, he did give the website minute by minute updates on the Jon Fitch situation and reported the resolution well before it was announced. The fact that someone works for a company and posts under a psuedonym doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be able to post. Nate promoted the post because he has a very good track record on this stuff.
As far as debt goes…seriously Skwirri, I can’t do a debt financing course in comments, but you’re replacing reason with hope. They are in astounding shape.
No matches Smoogy - did you mislink or delete them already?
I wish a had a penny for everytime I read on Sherdog that Zuffa pays people to post on forums i’d be rich.
Come on now this is getting ridiculous mmalogic obviously has connections to someone at Zuffa but he’s upfront about it. To jump from that to some sort of big conspiracy between BE of all sites and Zuffa is laughable.
Now as far as Affliction goes, they’ve already tried to get out of the MMA business once it won’t shock me to see them try again. Are they done who knows really, but they are close to their endgame whether it’s one or two more shows it’s gameover for the t-shirt guys.
Rome I just don’t see how without liquidity if a bad event turns worse what they can do about it without massive refinancing or violating the terms of their loans. And Yes, honestly I HOPE ZUFFA would be forced to sell. I hate that company and hate the way they pressure fighters and are basically trying to form a monopoly so they can further blackball people. I used to show some faith in them, then the Pride shutdown killed a little of it. The last straw was pretty much when they acted in horrible faith towards Hellboy Hansen. (Not to mention any other fighters they have pressured or taken advantage of via their position as industry near monopoly, but Hellboy is the perfect storm of horseshit.) Since then I have the attitude towards them that he does. Dana White can go pound sand up his ass.
So its part hope on my side… But also belief that they are overextended right now and have no liquidity to deal with a longterm economic downturn. Maybe the Fertittas sell their share in Station… That may actually be the best course of action for them fiscally. But in this economy would you buy? FUCK THAT. Sleep in the streets mafia kids.
Sorry, I forgot you need to be signed up. Public link:
http://forums.mmanews.com/general-mma-forum/33696-hoax-affliction-announces-break-after-3rd-show.html
Astroturfing is quite a common practice on the web — especially on political and technological web sites. So, it should come as no surprise that the rise of this PR technique could/will happen soon enough on MMA blogs, since the blog scene in this industry is relatively robust.
The issue of raising the prospects of astroturfing here is not about one particular site but rather a whole group of sites, message boards, etc. related to a certain industry and how easy manipulation of not only readers but reporters can be done.
I believe this.
Affliction can’t keep on paying out this much money to cover base contracts, sponsorships, production costs, promotional costs, etc. And what are they getting out of it anyway? The amount of visibility they’re receiving for the amount of money they are spending is very small. Because everyone but Zuffa seems to be struggling right now, the MMA field is wide open and the limited press latches on to almost anything. If you watch MMA Live, HDNet, or read mainstream articles from ESPN, SI, Yahoo, etc. even the small promotions out there are getting press coverage. For the amount of money they are spending to get the extra hype and coverage, it doesn’t seem to be worth it at all.
And also, bringing in Trump, Golden Boy, and M-1 is just putting too many hands in the cookie jar. Basically, if you think you need Trump, Golden Boy, and M-1 to put on a fight card that people will watch and afterwards talk about, and a card that the MMA media will cover, then you have no business running a promotion in the first place.
Everything about Affliction is flawed. Them going under, which they inevitably will, has nothing to do with Zuffa planting moles all over the place. Zuffa is going to be running shows in the Phillipines, England (again), they just ran one in Ireland, they’re going to Germany, and back to Montreal again if not in more places internationally this year. They’re putting out a video game that will only grow the brand further. The WEC is slowly but surely gaining more attention. They keep breaking records on Spike. Zuffa doesn’t have to do anything at all to keep Affliction from going under. Affliction was doomed from the very beginning through their own poor decision making. And in the end, if they don’t make peace with Zuffa and if Zuffa continues to shut out the Affliction clothing line after Affliction stops promoting fights, then their base business is going to be in big trouble too, especially in this economy as people continue to stop spending so wastefully. Buying an Affliction shirt = wasteful spending.
If I must i’ll go out and personally buy an Affliction shirt just to support the company. I would much rather buy several pairs of Affliction boxers or socks since its totally not my style with their shirts. I wear snowboarder shit… But I’ll do my part if I must.
Plz Affliction - Tom if you’re getting this. Start making smaller Affliction items. Boxers or board shorts would be an awesome start. Your stuff is not my style but I would buy it just to support your organization.
Just a coincidence Smoogy - TheMMABooker and Subo used the same quote from Dana
“It is a good day today”
I don’t think Subo is a shill just a big UFC fan… So your guy could be one and the same. Just my opinion on him if they are the same person.
nm - slightly different quote - Subo “It is a good day today” TheMMABooker “It’s a good day for MMA in the words of Dana White”
disregard me - I go stand alone in the corner now.
damn true that John Chandler - douchebags!
Thank you Fight Opinion trackbacks for letting me know that someone is stealing my material!
Guys,
So what if mmalogic is connected to Zuffa? I don’t think he really hides it - he’s never outright denied it.
Astroturfing is common practice. This post on FO is good because it makes people more aware of this practice but I’m glad that mmalogic is breaking news.
One thing - RapistBill who’s spamming the thread over at BE is probably a Zuffa guy as well right? His actions are a bit childish to say the least….
As the guy who originally pointed out that mmalogic is connected to Zuffa, I’m prone to believe he’s highly influential, or at least he talks to somebody who really knows their stuff at Zuffa. You can make up rumors, but a random messageboard mouthpiece isn’t going to come up with high-level analysis over the business of MMA. I’ve seen him mention in passing quality analysis I’ve never even seen anybody else in the blogosphere touch on. So if he is passing on rumors, its still coming from someone at Zuffa who really knows the business.
I agree that he most likely is. But the question is ’so what’?
He’ll keep posting or he’ll change his username. Eventually we’ll figure out who the new mmalogic is but it will take sometime.
The MMA fanbase is great - I have so much fun participating in this community.
“But the question is ’so what’?”
Exactly. Its not like the guy has ever really tried to hide it. He’s looked at as a reliable source because he keeps posting inside info that turns out to be accurate.
Maybe he’s spent the past 9 months building up cred just so that he could post a rumor in the hopes of finishing Affliction off. A little ridiculous, but not impossible.
I suspect we will know soon.
To everyone who is taking the position
that a person still has a right to post even if they’re a UFC employee: It’s not being a UFC employee that is objectionable, it’s the lack of
disclosure. It’s the fact that it’s information coming from the UFC,
information whose release benefits the UFC, but without public knowing that
it came from the UFC and being able to judge its veracity (or the motives for its release) in that context. THAT is what is objectionable about mmalogic. (now that mmalogic has been exposed, they will likely use other screen names instead— ones that haven’t been exposed)
For all anybody knows Joe Silva’s poolboy has been passing everybody second hand information and its exactly what ZUFFA wants them to hear.
“now that mmalogic has been exposed, they will likely use other screen names instead— ones that haven’t been exposed)”
Uh, hmm? It hasn’t been a huge secret or anything, like you and Zach have blown the lid off a big coverup. mmalogic’s connections with Zuffa have been pretty common knowledge over at BE for a while. And he still posts there.
Mike Rome said “There is no dialogue between me and the UFC, the people there have no idea who I am.”
Are you sure about that mike? Not even Ike epstein? You’ve told people you applied to intern with Zuffa’s counsel, but didn’t get it…so it is a bit misleading to say there has been no contact…..Just a question, does the fact that you indirectly applied to work for them shade your coverage?
I don’t find it objectionable that mmalogic doesn’t come right out and say ‘I work for Zuffa’.
Plausible deniability - it looks crap on Zuffa’s part if this is ‘confirmed’ as true. If it’s confirmed that Zuffa is indeed astroturfing - broadsheets might start picking up the story and it’ll be a PR nightmare for Zuffa.
If that’s what some people are trying achieve - i.e. hang Zuffa out to dry with the national press - then so be it.
I don’t see the point at this stage. I don’t think anything despicable has been done.
It would be nice if Zuffa has an ‘official representative’ at BE but that’s never doing to happen…
As a first year law student, among the 100 or so places I sent applications for an internship, I emailed people at the UFC too. If they somehow remember my 3 line email and therefore know who I am, then there would be the one person I emailed that would know me (and it isn’t Epstein). In fact, there wasn’t even an internship program, I did a cold email just to see if there was any response.
The fact that you’d bring this up here is kind of pathetic, and really nobody’s business. Actually, I’ve told one person that, so good job giving that away. Other random places I threw apps into include: the DGA, Goldenboy (FTW Affliction!), the Los Angeles Lakers general counsel, the U.S. Attorney’s office, and about 75 law firms.
I should say though that as a law student that loves MMA, there aren’t a lot of dream jobs that encompass both. I don’t apologize at all for trying to land a dream job combining my work with my passion. And no, it doesn’t affect how I cover anything.
skwirrl,
You said: “And Yes, honestly I HOPE ZUFFA would be forced to sell.”
Fans like you scare me. Without Zuffa, this sport would just be a bunch of minor league promoters fighting with each other to put fights.
I think you fail to see how good of a job Zuffa has done.
Does anyone have any how UFC 93 and Affliction did on PPV?
Is a poster on a message board seriously worth a news story? And over 40 posts? I’d laugh my ass off if Lorenzo Fertitta “retired” from his fast sliding casino business to post on MMA message boards. Gives me great hope about their future.
I really should remember to wear my tin foil hat when ever I come to fight opinion, these conspiracy theories are so entertaining.
A guy who posts on a blog whos identity nobody even knows is being accused of being a Zuffa employee, and people are reporting this like they are completely certain. Again where is the proof of this accusation? I can’t tell you how many message boards or chat rooms are full of supposed people who work or have friends/connections that work in the UFC.
it’s called viral marketing / grassroots marketing, specifically refered to as ‘forum seeding’, and is the status quo for all businesses with online communities.
This isnt exactly breaking news. it has happened in the entertainment and gaming communities for a decade and is 110% the norm for PR firms.
enough with the outrage by the uninformed.
45 Huddle no it wouldn’t. Were ZUFFA to sell - the UFC name goes with them. Its no different than the owner on a sports team changing. And just as the Raiders would be better off without Al Davis… MMA would be better off without the Fertitta’s and Dana lining their pockets largely at the vast majority of fighters expense. Replaced with owner Marck Ecko and governing board Monte Cox/Scott Coker/Tom Atencio or Mark Cuban and president Guy Mezger.
Why hasnt the usualy perfunctory 45 posted yet?
Perhaps beign well versed in the Zuffa style of damage control he knows to stay as far away as possible not to blow his cover through any corroborative posts. Dana left him a message early this morning about the situation~ LoL.
Seriously though it’s probably just people like their receptionist doing some extracirricular activity but I wouldn’t doubt they have people hired specifically for the task, just like HBO recently hiring people to crack down on internet streaming.
Whomever they have “astroturfing”, if they even are, is probably someone from their marketing or business development department.
They probably have a job post specifically designed to seed their ideas, thoughts, slants, etc. out into the blogosphere in order to control or shape the line of thinking. It’s not new by any means and if this persons doing it and providing top level insight and analysis, it’s likely intentional.
One thing to keep in mind about that $350 million debt is that there were a few primary reasons for it:
1) Consolidate existing debt and/or to finance new projects
2) Finance a dividend to the principals
The Fertittas and White surely took a huge cut of that cash and squirreled it away for good. There’s no imminent reason for them to sell especially since they’re already cashed out what was no doubt quite a bit of equity.
On another note, I just read that some Station Casino’s notes due in 2014 are rumored to be in technical default and are trading as such at a massive discount to par. Station is not in good shape.
I don’t understand what skirrl is talking about with having to pay any of this debt “out of pocket” unless either of the Fertitta’s is holding any of their own companies’ debt.
” mmalogic’s connections with Zuffa have been pretty common knowledge over at BE for a while. And he still posts there.”
Yeah, it was so common knowledge that when he made the post about Affliction MMA’s demise, the vast majority of people were saying, “Cite a source!” and not one person said, “Hey, this guy is probably right because he works for Zuffa.”
Or he could just be a guy in a cubicle at Zuffa posting on a coffee break. You don’t have to work in marketing to post on message boards, and you don’t have to be a genius either (obviously).
Applying Occam’s Razor here, I think JNTJ’s conjecture might be the most likely.
The guy wrote “tailor” as “taylor”! That’s outright hillbilly spelling. More likely an intern or low level staffer who heard some people in the hallway or saw some things while making copies.
If it is a case of astroturfing, it’s a pretty poor implementation of it. Or maybe it is masterful job of blending in. Mmalogic DOES sound like your average retarded Tapout-wearing MMA fan.
Misspelling a few words here and there to make it less blatantly obvious who you work for would not be that difficult and is not far-fetched at all.
“Yeah, it was so common knowledge that when he made the post about Affliction MMA’s demise, the vast majority of people were saying, “Cite a source!” and not one person said, “Hey, this guy is probably right because he works for Zuffa.””
Ok, somewhat common knowledge. Doesn’t change the fact that if mmalogic was actively trying to spread misinformation, it would do him good if the staff and most of the long-term posters didn’t know he was associated with Zuffa.
Your entire premise assumes that Zuffa is both secretly trying to spread misinformation, and to do so hires idiots who don’t know how to cover their tracks. I have to say, any argument that assumes stupidity on the part of the biggest, most powerful MMA entity in the world, is an argument that badly needs reworking.
“Misunderstandings and neglect occasion more mischief in the world than even malice and wickedness. At all events, the two latter are of less frequent occurrence.” — Goethe
He’s probably just some guy. There are plots, but not everything is a conspiracy.
He/they accidentally slipped up in one post last September and then successfully deflected suspicion at the time by using flattery. I don’t see how that makes him/them a bumbling idiot when he/they successfully astroturfed a very popular blog for many months without his/their employer (and thus his/their motives) being widely known. Additionally, there is absolutely nothing to stop him/them from continuing do the same kind of astroturfing under different screen names and/or on different web sites.
And no, it was not “somewhat common knowledge” that he/they work for Zuffa. Just look at that post. There were lots of people who said something in their comments to the extent of, “Who the hell are you? Cite a source!” and there was not one person who said, “This guy knows what he’s talking about because he works for Zuffa.”
““Who the hell are you? Cite a source!” and there was not one person who said, “This guy knows what he’s talking about because he works for Zuffa.””
Yes, because thats proof nobody knew he was associated with Zuffa. The guy REGULARLY talks about making money off of Zuffa and them paying him. I would attribute nobody mentioning it more due to not that many of the long-term posters being around at the time-I was off for about 8 hours and came back to find this uproar already in full bloom.
Doesn’t change the fact it WOULD come out at some point, because the guy DOESN’T TRY TO HIDE IT.
Once again, are you expecting ineptitude from the most powerful, best-run MMA organization in the world?
Just to prove that it was common knowledge: somebody asked about him less than a week ago, and was told that he seems to be a consultant working for Zuffa.
You found one post of somebody “uncovering” the secret and ran with it like it was some huge thing. Its not. The guy does not try to hide it, and a lot of people know.
I suppose it depends on your definition of “common knowledge” then. In any case, I must have missed his Zuffa employment being mentioned when his FanPost was promoted to the main page. I must have missed his Zuffa employment being mentioned when the update to his post was made. If that had been done, then the public would have been able to judge the veracity of mmalogic’s report (or the motives for its release) in that context. Instead, as the responses to his post show, most people had no idea.
You’re changing the goal lines, Ivan. If the issue is that his Zuffa employment was not mentioned, the problem is one of accurate disclosure, not of subtle and evil attempts to manipulate the story on the blogosphere.
I agree that his supposed connections with Zuffa should have been made clear when it was promoted to the front page at BE. But that does not make it some attempt by Zuffa to seed the blosphere, which is the story you’ve been trying to run with this entire thread. The guy does not really do a very good job of hiding his Zuffa connections, if that is indeed the case.
Where have I heard the “changing the goal-posts” argument before? As for your previous claims that mmalogic does talk about working for Zuffa and does not try to hide it, I looked at the very post you were referring to, the one in which one poster on Bloody Elbow speculated that maybe he’s a consultant working for Zuffa. In the comments section of that very post, mmalogic did deny it and wrote, “If Zuffa was paying me for espionage I wouldn’t be wasting my time here.” In that same post, he demonstrates his vast knowledge of astroturfing and spreading information to benefit specific interests, all while denying that he is doing that.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/1/25/735905/day-of-reckoning-draws-13#11743136
” mmalogic’s connections with Zuffa have been pretty common knowledge over at BE for a while. And he still posts there.”
Ivan,
To clarify, the top people at BE know who he is because they all have long discussions praising Zuffa strategies. Subo, Michaelthebox, cyph, TheRealness, mmalogic, etc are all VERY PRO ZUFFA. Anyone who doesn’t praise them in that site are said to anti-zuffa.
^^^
You can add Phildo and Rome as well.
“Where have I heard the “changing the goal-posts” argument before?”
Probably from me, because you do it a lot. You might want to work on that.
Like right now. Now the issue you’re railing on is that mmalogic is astroturfing, while in the exact same post he is honest about the fact that he takes money from Zuffa.
So lets set the boundary lines. Do you, or do you not, claim that mmalogic tries to hide his Zuffa ties?
Joseph: I’m very openly pro-Zuffa, as are the other guys you mention. What, exactly, is your point?
Bumbling low level interns on coffee breaks don’t post steadily and voraciously for one thing (Zuffa) and against another (everyone else).
The guy was in there disseminating, subversively about how a “Zuffa reject dominated Fedor - blah, blah”, in getting KTFO’d in 3 minutes. And then made dozens of posts on how crappy Affliction, etc., etc., etc. The guy is in there, he’s smart and he’s planting all kinds of seeds for ideas, rumours, etc. on the way the UFC wants people to think and be influenced about mma.
I’d accuse 45 Huddle, but he’s so ridiculously biased he’d be a dead giveaway and be fired for trying to do the job.
“The guy was in there disseminating, subversively about how a “Zuffa reject dominated Fedor - blah, blah”, in getting KTFO’d in 3 minutes.”
mmalogic also had a short argument over whether or not Fedor should be considered the greatest fighter of all time. I think we both agreed that he’s far and away the greatest HW of all time, but that there were some issues as to whether or not he should be considered P4P greatest.
Where does “Fedor is the best HW ever” fit into Zuffa’s misinformation scheme?
This debate is so pointless I can’t believe I’m still reading the comments…lol
I enjoy it I guess….
Whatever - I have no qualms whether or not mmalogic is a Zuffa employee or not. If his job is to crush Affliction so be it. If he’s really a Zuffa mole who is astroturfing then I guess he’s about to get fired by Dana for getting ‘exposed’. Somehow I doubt it.
Everyone will have their own opinion at this stage. Some people are massively pro Zuffa (subo - i’m looking at you…) and some are always against (skwirrl!).
However at the end of the day Zuffa is an organisation that is out to make money and dominate the competition. Given the current state of the world, i’d say astroturfing rather on the tame side.
…the more I think about it the more I think BJ Penn will beat GSP…also I want him to win so they can fight again
rainmaker, you are so wrong about EVERYTHING. BJ Penn cannot beat GSP, and will get mauled like a little girl before a bear.
Joseph: I’m very openly pro-Zuffa, as are the other guys you mention. What, exactly, is your point?
My point is that you guys obviously know that mmalogic is zuffa connected because you guys worship mmalogic’s words as a Zuffa insider. Other’s on that site not as much.
I mean, it is pretty obvious to see who is very PRO zuffa in the internet, the likes of Kevin Iole, mmalogic, 45 Huddle, etc.
“while in the exact same post he is honest about the fact that he takes money from Zuffa.”
Please show me where. I have read and re-read that post and don’t see it.
“So lets set the boundary lines. Do you, or do you not, claim that mmalogic tries to hide his Zuffa ties?”
Yes, he generally has tried to hide it. If you’re talking as if he acknowledges working for Zuffa in his posts, you’re not fooling anyone here. I think referring to Zuffa in the third person constantly (ie, what they are doing) without saying that he works for them, except in one post where he slipped up and said “us,” would qualify for that.
Of course, the next step of damage control could very well be for him to admit that he works for Zuffa. I think it’s more likely that they will just start to use other screen names more often instead.
And it doesn’t take a stretch of logic to see that it might help make him seem semi-credible or semi-independent to say that Fedor is the best heavyweight of all time (what semi-credible or semi-independent person would disagree with that), while continuing to push the line that Zuffa started pushing hard shortly after their negotiations to sign Fedor fell apart in late 2007, which is that Fedor is definitely not #1 on the pound-for-pound list because here’s who is.
“Alas, I am restricted to working on my less than “Death Touch” strategies and just shoot the shit on BE to kill time
”
Maybe not a smoking gun, but he clearly indicates that he works for Zuffa. Moreover, as I said, that isn’t the only case, and he’s been much, much, much more open about it many times in the past.
“you guys worship mmalogic’s words as a Zuffa insider.”
Do I detect a trace of anti-Zuffa bias? I do! You win the prize, Joseph: you get to worship failing promotions! Come on down and claim your winnings.
Ivan: Joseph may have a point about the knowledge of mmalogic’s ties being limited to a subset of posters who are less likely to suspect him of a campaign of misinformation. But that still doesn’t make it the right path to take. I’m sure if I were embarking on a campaign of misinformation, I could come up with some cover story that doesn’t involve me being on Zuffa’s payroll. If mmalogic is indeed trying to spread misinformation, he’d doing a damned strange job of it, not really hiding his Zuffa ties and spending half a year or so passing on accurate inside info while waiting for a chance to hit Affliction where it hurts.
So once again, it comes down to Zuffa hiring a misinformation poster that doesn’t do his job very well. I don’t buy it. The online blogosphere is small enough that, if Zuffa really wanted to, they could drown out the message boards with pro-Zuffa propaganda.
“To clarify, the top people at BE know who he is because they all have long discussions praising Zuffa strategies. Subo, Michaelthebox, cyph, TheRealness, mmalogic, etc are all VERY PRO ZUFFA. Anyone who doesn’t praise them in that site are said to anti-zuffa.”
I can verify this.
“Of course, the next step of damage control could very well be for him to admit that he works for Zuffa. I think it’s more likely that they will just start to use other screen names more often instead.”
Since I don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement about this, it should be interesting to see what he actually does.
“I can verify this.”
The anti-Zuffa posters must maintain their own party line, after all. Keep it up!
lol, that quite doesn’t “clearly indicate that he works for Zuffa.” and if he’s “been much, much, much more open about it many times in the past” then please show me where.
I’m not being sarcastic. If he has been open about it (albeit in a few of his posts out of hundreds), then I would want to know and would want to see it.
The argument that a Zuffa astroturfer could do so much more damage if they really wanted to is an argument that doesn’t prove anything one way or the other. You’re just repeating a variation of the argument that “mmalogic” made in the post that I previously linked to. (http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/1/25/735905/day-of-reckoning-draws-13#11743136)
To Michael or anyone else who thinks that “mmalogic” is more of a bumbling idiot than someone with sophisticated knowledge of exactly how it works to astroturf or spread information to suit a particular interest, just look at his own words in the post where he’s denying that he works for Zuffa (the URL is in my previous post in this thread):
“Affliction is in about 4 major outlets if I remember correctly.
Let’s take Nordstrom’s…
I would have over 200,000 emails sent to their boxes complaining about affliction (todd beard provides enough ammo, but even if he didn’t there are multitude of ways to set this up)
Now you’re probably asking how would 200,000 emails be possible. well Im sure you get spam so I dont need to go into the technology in setting up millions of email accounts with faux names to email out of.
But how do you send out 200,000 plus UNIQUE emails so it looks real…
Getting 200,000 plus emails written Individually is not cost effective.
I have technology that will take an article of say 300 words. All you do is rewrite each sentence with 2 or 3 different variations.
Then take individual words and input possible replacements so now some words have a few variations as well.
Now the amount of unique variations of the 300 word article will number around 10,000 plus.
So you repeat this about 20 times which is easily done.
To get a better understanding of how this works look at passwords… take a 5 digit password – how many variations can you make of that? This works the same way.
I first developed this technology to beat google’s algorithm when they instituted penalties on duplicate content (they don’t rank duplicate content as high in the search engine results)
OK so now just an email campaign is not good enough as that’s not natural… so I would commission one of my printers to print out letters (about 100,000 or so)
Using the same technology whip out 100,000 unique complaint letters. (if you’ve seen some of the more sophisticated junk mail even hand written notes can be simulated so I would use a mixture of printed, typed, etc.. sent out to different key branches).
I’m an over achiever so I would also have a call center I work with in panama use their females to start calling up individual stores with sample verbal scripts of the complaints.
Also submit a few press releases like one from “the assocation of Evangelical mothers” threatening to protest and boycott nordstroms if affliction is not dropped (yeah these associations aren’t real but that’s not a problem)
You see where this is going
Just rinse and repeat with the other few chains – changing things based on the demographics the outlet serves and Affliction is done… no need to counter program or nothing.
The complaints are simple… something affliction did which I don’t like, I am offended by or is against my religion and although I like shopping at nordstroms (or wherever) I can not continue to shop their in good conscious because of this… yada, yada, yada.”
“Since I don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement about this, it should be interesting to see what he actually does.”
We’ll see if he admits to working for Zuffa, but we’re not going to see if he simply starts using other screen names more often. It’s not like he’s going to announce on other screen names, “Hi everyone, this is mmalogic from Zuffa posting under a different screen name!”
Ivan, I’m really not interested in tracking down all his posts over the past six months to point out where he’s been open about it in the past. We can agree to disagree, because this should largely be cleared up over the next couple weeks anyway. I’m content to wait, see if I’m right or wrong.
“We’ll see if he admits to working for Zuffa, but we’re not going to see if he simply starts using other screen names more often.”
If you’re right about the whole surfboarding or whatever its called, he’ll stop posting much or at all with that sn, because it will be compromised. If you’re wrong, he doesn’t give a shit who knows and he’ll keep posting with it just as much as he always has.
how the hell did I get surfboarding from astroturfing?
From what I’ve seen, mmalogic has never been “open” about being a Zuffa astroturfer. I knew he was a fixer of some kind, but based on my own deductions.
Keep it up, smoogy. You can bring down the evil Zuffa empire!
Michael— You were the one who said he had been open about working for Zuffa many, many, many times. In the first and only example you cited of that, I didn’t see him being open about it at all, so that’s why I asked for other examples.
In any case, unless mmalogic is going to admit to working for Zuffa, mmalogic is not just going to scatter like a cockroach with light shined on it. Doing that would just be exposing what he has been doing for the past X number of months on Bloody Elbow. I’d imagine that he will still post under the mmalogic screen name sometimes in order to avoid this perception, but like I said he’ll likely be posting under other screen names much more often.
On a related note, let’s count the factual errors!
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_ylt=Ahl4sXjnkkKNK73BVlV8uJU9Eo14?slug=ki-ufcbiz-013009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
“The replay of UFC 91 on Spike TV on Saturday set a record for the largest audience ever for a non-live show on the network…”
Numerous pre-taped episodes of WWE Raw averaged more than 2.3 million viewers.
“… when more than 3.3 million people tuned in.”
The show drew an average of 2.3 million viewers. 3.3 million was the number of viewers for a one-minute period at the peak of the Lesnar-Couture viewership. When it says in the next paragraph that Mosley vs. Margarito drew 1.8 million viewers (which it drew on a network this is only in like 30 million homes), I’m sure that is the average viewership, not the peak for one individual minute.
“The UFC generated more than $300 million in pay-per-view revenue in 2008, surpassing boxing and the WWE for the second consecutive year.”
Boxing beat the UFC in PPV revenue in 2007. It wouldn’t have if not for the monster buyrate of De la Hoya vs. Mayweather, but it did.
That is three factual errors in the first seven sentences.
Get a life, guys! This site is really going down the crapper lately. Sherdog 2.0.
Well, that settles it then. You win the debate with that post.
Maybe mmalogic is a double agent and he really is working for Affliction. This whole thing was thought up to get Affliction onto the front page of several MMA blogs and to somehow make people think UFC is evil.
“On a related note, let’s count the factual errors!
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_ylt=Ahl4sXjnkkKNK73BVlV8uJU9Eo14?slug=ki-ufcbiz-013009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns”
Ouch Ivan,
Go easy on the guy.
Kevin Iole is a very respected and accomplished ….. shoot, I couldn’t even finish the sentence.
Grape Knee High will never see this because I’m replying too late.
The 500 hundred million in loans that Station took out to build their new North Vegas casino are completely seperate from the rest of their debt. I don’t remember where I read it as after the Station news came out I went on a net rampage digging up as much dirt as possible on it. Anyways the terms of that loan may actually force the owners of Station to pony up cash, (not harsh words or more credit or equity or some slick refinancing job), so as not to default on that completely separate loan.
“Maybe mmalogic is a double agent and he really is working for Affliction. This whole thing was thought up to get Affliction onto the front page of several MMA blogs and to somehow make people think UFC is evil.”
I’m not sure if you are being sarcastic. But if you are being sarcastic, it would appear to be a similar argument to some previous posts suggesting that it’s just too complicated or conspiratorial for a major corporation to do this. In fact, it’s not. Lots of companies have been caught doing it and it’s not that difficult for them to get away with it most of the time.
Also its clear MMAlogic works for ZUFFA. He’s got scheduled pool cleanings for Joe Silva and Dana White today at 6:30 and 7:00 PM
The owners of ZUFFA had their family fortune made in a business where people get dumped into acid or ground into dog food. You really think hiring 4 or 5 guys to push their agenda is outside their morals? LMAO
skwirrl, you sure do talk a lot like Todd Beard. What’s up with that?
JOSEPH: are you or are you not the same joseph who actually wrote a “fluff” piece about Gary Shaw a few weeks before “standgate”.trying(and i use that term loosely) to point out several good points on that scumbag. and you wonder why you are seen as anti-zuffa. iv’e seen you on several sites like bloody elbow,mmamania,fightlinker.i know it’s you, b/c you say the same old things over and over and you always bag on the ufc and the wec. so why would it bother you if someone deems you as anti-zuffa, when you clearly are. at least SKWIRRL admits to it, even though his reasoning is very shallow. i don’t see why you guys spend so much time hating, it seems like a waste of energy, and you’re never going to change anything, but then again, i guess without guys like you 2 and several more, there would not be much to debate about on these sites. keep hating, haters.
There is a post over at fightlinker by a guy called Thomas Gerbilski that claims to provide proof of the situation.
This name is very similar to UFC.com’s main writer Thomas Gerbasi. Are they the same person? If so i think we just found a candidate for MMALOGIC…
That Fightlinker article seems to be a parody piece about the UFC leaking word of Affliction’s demise.
Well Jeremy if you’ve heard me practicing Rosetta Stone I sure don’t sound like Sakakibara… But I’m trying. I guess sounding like Beard is all relative. But considering the Fertitta FAMILY (not Frank 3 and Lorenzo) were a well known mob connections under Frank 1. I don’t think i’m breaking ground here by accusing his progeny of not worrying about the morality of having guys shill for them.
For fucks sake…
DAMN YOU FIGHTLINKER!!!
Do you think you could find the reference to that debt again? I’m curious to see what the terms of that debt issue is.
I could see the indentures giving the debt holders, say, a put option or an accelerated put schedule upon Station violating a negative covenant, but it seems extremely unlikely that the Fertittas would ever agree to ever having to put up their own (non-Station) cash.
GKH: I’m sure Station is some sort of closely held corporation. Unless the Fertittas had to co-sign on the loan (pretty damn unlikely), then that’s some sort of fevered pipe dream. Piercing the veil to their personal assets would be difficult.
“There is a post over at fightlinker by a guy called Thomas Gerbilski that claims to provide proof of the situation. ”
LOL
Gerbilski is the pseudonym fightlinker uses whenever they are doing a satire post. It is the same name they used to ‘break’ the Luke Cummo coffee enema suspension story, the one that a number of major MMA blogs picked up and ran with as a legit news story.
Any time you see the name Gerbilski on a fightlinker byline, you can rest assured it is an Onion style parody piece and not legit news.