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UFC 92 (12/27 Las Vegas)
By Zach Arnold | December 27, 2008
Results/Reports: Bloody Elbow | AOL Fanhouse | MMA Mania | MMA Junkie | Five Ounces
Sounds like UFC made the right call on the Okami/Lister fight, even if Okami is essentially the #1 contender to Anderson Silva.
I remember making a comment in November on Fight Opinion Radio (does that show still exist?), stating that out of all the possible match-ups involving combinations of Couture, Mir, Lesnar, and Nogueira, that Mir vs. Lesnar would be by far the most appealing, money-making match-up that the promotion could hope for. It’s a re-match that had to happen sometime. How perfect is it for UFC that Mir vs. Lesnar will happen in the Spring of ‘09 for the Heavyweight crown? Perfect fight — Lesnar wins, he gets redemption. Mir can go into that fight claiming he’s the real champion and if he wins the re-match, his credibility skyrockets. Remember, in UFC, the fighter who won the first fight wins a re-match around 70% of the time.
As for Nogueira, his ‘fighting age’ may have likely caught up to him. He has taken some vicious beatings throughout his career. He’s enjoyed a long, prosperous MMA run for the most part.
Regarding Evans becoming the new champion… obviously, a match against Quinton Jackson is tailor-made for him. Short-term, UFC booking looks great for the first half of 2009. The one downside, however, is that UFC has two weight classes (185 and 205) with legitimate challengers that the promotion is (my opinion) deathly afraid of booking in title matches — Yushin Okami (against Anderson Silva) and Ryoto Machida (against Evans). You can bury those guys on the undercards all you want, but eventually UFC is going to have to deal with both fighters sooner or later.
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It has been a really brutal night so far. We have seen a bloody TKO, a cold knockout, and a freak injury. A first-time viewer of the sport would be repulsed.
Is MMA becoming violent? I mean this empirically - has anyone studied whether the rate and severity of injury is increasing or declining?
*becoming more violent, I meant.
Say what you will about the stoppage - Nogueira’s fighting style is simply not tenable. Taking punishment is not a strategy.
Well, I guess everyone’s chin has to break sometime (regarding Nog)…
Probably a good time to retire.
Gorgeous night so far.
No submission so far tonight. I wonder if Forrest will go for subs, he seems like that kind of guy, going for every bonus possible.
Called the main events completely wrong so far, but the results have set up the UFC for a great 2009. Mir/Lesnar is a HUGE money fight. So is Quinton vs. Evans/Griffin.
The stoppage of Nogueira was good. It looked like he went out for a second. I’m kind of surprised Frank Mir won, but that was a great performance.
Purely from a rankings perspective, the UFC now has 4 of the Top 5 Heavyweights, which is a COMPLETE SHOCK since that was their weakest division.
1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Frank Mir
3. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
4. Brock Lesnar
5. Randy Couture
6. Josh Barnett
7. Tim Sylvia
8. Andrei Arlovski
When does Machida take Evans’s belt?
I have a feeling it is Rashad Evans vs. Quinton Jackson next. I like Machida, but that seems like the next logical fight.
Great night of fights. Too bad they didn’t show Okami/Lister. I need a way to go to sleep tonight.
I won’t say “I told you so” but a bunch of the commenters on this site needto admit they were wrong about Lister/Okami.
Awesome night of fights.
Don’t forget that Machida has the fight against Thiago Silva next (at UFC 94), so he’s tied up for now. Of course, I don’t know who they can justifiably throw his way after Silva in the LHW division to stall an inevitable fight against the Evans/Jackson winner.
Many people, including myself, had no problem with TUF 8 because it allowed the Heavyweight Division to work itself out and give Nogueira an EASY fight against Mir. Wow, were we wrong.
I think the UFC can get away with one more non-title fight for Okami, but eventually they have to give him a title shot, and then they have to hold their breath. I can underatand the issue. I’m an Okami fan, but if you don’t actually fight, it is hard for a fight promoter to push you.
Will Griffin ever work on gaining KO power? He needs it, along with a killer instinct. He had 70 percent of voters fooled, but I knew he would lose if he tried to draw the fight out.
45, I am fascinated with how you could possibly do those HW rankings.
Well, I couldn’t have been more wrong in my picks for the 3 main fights. Thankfully, I put a little money on Mir. It’s amazing how winning money can dull the the shame that comes from being completely wrong in your picks.
If they don’t go through with Couture vs Liddell 4, I think that Couture vs Nog would be a great farewell fight for two legendary careers. They’re still relevant to the division, but unfortunately I can’t see them going anywhere but down from here. It’s just a matter of time before they wind up as highlight reels for upcoming studs like Cain Velasquez.
Guide To My Rankings
1. Fedor Emelianenko - Beat #3 Twice
2. Frank Mir - Beat #3, #4, & #7
3. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira - Lost #1. Beat #6. Lost #6. Beat #7
4. Brock Lesnar - Beat #5. Lost #2
5. Randy Couture - Lost #4. Beat #7.
6. Josh Barnett - Lost #3. Beat #3.
7. Tim Sylvia - Lost #1, #2, #3, #5. Beat #8.
8. Andrei Arlovski - Lost #8.
I know it hurts to see so many Zuffa Heavyweights so high, but that ranking makes the most sense based on accomplishments.
45’s rankings look completely plausible to me. There’s always some subjectivity involved with rankings, but I don’t see anything that looks like an obvious snub. The only thread connecting all the fighters is Sylvia, and he has lost to every fighter he fought that’s on the list.
Barnett’s the big question mark on the list — he would beat Mir, likely beat Lesnar (would be interesting to see if Paulson would choose to train Josh or Brock), and he might beat the Nogueira of today (as opposed to the Nogueira of 2-3 years ago). He’d probably beat Couture at this point as well.
Which makes that Affliction booking against Gilbert Yvel all the more maddenly frustrating, completely useless, and hard-to-defend.
What guy on 45 Huddle’s list wouldn’t go 2-0 against Rothwell and Nelson? The guys not fighting in the UFC are not being tested and their rankings should reflect that. 45 is the only one who does so. Good enough list for me.
Barnett might beat Mir, but the rankings are based on accomplishments, not what ifs. Fedor would likely wreck Mir, but if Mir beats Lesnar, he could be tied in many rankings as the #1 Heavyweight in the world along with Fedor. Just the way the cookie crumbles.
I wasn’t surprised to see that he wrote it, but it’s a joke for Dave Meltzer to write, “Man, all the people who complained about this match not being on the live show are looking bad.” By that logic, I suppose the San Antonio Spurs having a boring playoff series would demonstrate that they don’t deserve to be in the NBA Finals. Ultimately, it comes down to whether this is a sport or not. Is it about showcasing the best going against the best?
Also, the first punch after he was already unconscious might been explainable, but it was just plain classless for Quinton Jackson to punch Wanderlei Silva two additional times when he was 100% clearly already unconscious and with the referee already trying to drag him off of Silva after the first “already unconscious” punch. Absolutely classless.
At this point I think its a huge stretch to assume that Barnett would beat Mir and Lesnar. Mir looks a lot better, and I think Lesnar would absolutely crush Barnett. When did Barnett suddenly become a total asskicker? He hasn’t beaten an elite fighter since 2006.
I think its time we really step back and look at the rankings, rather than assuming the dominance of Pride’s former elite HW fighters. UFC fighters have caught up in every other division, and it looks like they’re finally doing the same in the HW division.
Mir looked better than he has in ages. I was thoroughly impressed.
All the more reason to at least make Barnett tied for 3. The rest is perfectly rational, but you do seem to be dinging him for no particularly good reason.
No way Barnett is ranked #3 or even in the Top 5.
He took all of 2007 off. Since then, he has fought a Light Heavyweight (Yoshida), friend in glorified sparring session (Monson), Rizzo (washed up), and now a guy who hasn’t been a factor for years (Yvel).
He gets not benefit of the doubt for taking so much time off from real competition. In fact, I wouldn’t have a hard time ranking him below Sylvia & Arlovski at this point.
As the UFC continues to pit the best fighters they have against each other, non-UFC fighters are invariably going to drop, simply because it’s hard to rank fighters solely on past accomplishments. Fighter A beats a top 5 ranked fighter B, and 3 years later fighter B is out of the top 10 and lost to fighters D, E, and F, who have themselves lost to other fighters. How long does fighter A’s win over fighter B stay relevant?
Barnett’s 1-1 against Nog and 0-3 against Crocop. Given Nog’s recent performance and CC’s freefall in the rankings, I can’t put Barnett anywhere near the top 5. The only reason he’s still a top 10 fighter is because the division is so thin, and even then guys like Kongo, Dos Santos, Carwin and Cain are going to edge him out with a couple of quality wins.
On a related note, if Fedor never joins the UFC, he’s a year or two away from being on a top 10 list that is comprised of fighters he has never fought. His wins against Sylvia, Nog, and Crocop are already starting to look a little obsolete. Arlovski helps temporarily, but his 1-2 record against Sylvia hurts him really bad. He’s another fighter near the bottom of the top 10 that’s starting to get passed by.
Ivan:
I have to agree with you, Rampage landed three punches after the ref grabbed him.
However, go back and watch their first fight and watch Silva smile as he pounds, soccer kicks, and finally holds Rampage up against the ropes in thai clinch so he can punish him even though he is clearly done the whole time.
Or perhaps, you could go back and watch Silva stomp Kondo on the head five times, all while holding the rope.
Anyhow, I don’t disagree, but I’m not going to shed a tear for Wanderlei Silva.
CB tapped!
> I think that Couture vs Nog would be a great farewell fight for two legendary careers. They’re still relevant to the division, but unfortunately I can’t see them going anywhere but down from here.
I totally agree with this statement.
Their best days are history. It is ridiculous to bring up years-old fights when evaluating the current status of a fighter. No matter what they accomplished in the past, they are fighting with what they can do now.
Like Big Nog used to say, there are just too many good fighters on earth who would kill current MMA champion on any given day. Most of them cannot lead a successful career in MMA because they don’t fit pro-fighter’s life. Big Nog says “Talent in fighting and talent to become a professional fighter are 2 different things.” That’s why I don’t really care about rankings or championships.
I really enjoyed this one, granted maybe that’s because the three guys who I had felt were going to win did so in impressive fashion.
I know this year has had a lot of big candidates, and I guess it comes down to how you judge it, but I gotta give KO of the year to Quinton Jackson. Were some of the other candidates for the title perhaps more brutal? Sure. But not only did Quinton Jackson land a devastating KO punch, he did so in the midst of checking three of Wanderlei’s best in the middle of a heated exchange. Rampage got a lot of flack going into this fight due to things completely outside the Octagon, and I think he showed everyone that he’s really stepping up his game to a whole new level.
Frank Mir destroyed Nogueira. I’m gonna type that one again cos it’s still a little difficult to imagine. Frank Mir DESTROYED Nogueira. He had a damn near flawless night and did something that nobody else has ever done before. I just think it’s too bad the validity and significance of it is going to be overlooked just because Nogueira’s old and been in a lot of wars in the past. I mean, is there any real evidence that the Nogueira that we saw against Mir is any better or worse than the Nogueira of 2003? I think Mir deserves the full credit of beating someone who was, at one time, undisputedly the number two heavyweight in the world.
I’ll be honest, being such a huge Rashad supporter and believer, this Forrest fight had me worried. On paper, Forrest was designed to give Rashad fits. Then before the fight I saw no nipple tweak. Then the fight starts and the size advantage becomes very apparent. Then Forrest takes two rounds, damaging Rashad’s left eye. Thankfully Rashad was able to pull this one out with a pretty brutal TKO.
I’ll be honest, after Forrest Griffin I really don’t see any other Light Heavyweights matching up against Rashad at all. I assume the Machida/Silva fight will be for the title shot, which I expect Silva to smash Machida who finally faces someone with some standup skills. Not to rant, but Machida isn’t strategic, he actually just runs away for three rounds. I’m not saying you can’t be elusive or dodge punches, but when you’re literally sprinting around the cage while Tito Ortiz of all people is trying to engage you in a standup brawl, I don’t think you can lay any real claim to having much of anything to offer other than an occasional jab or take down. Other than that, I think it might be a good idea to set up Griffin vs. Jackson II with the winner getting the title shot after the winner of Silva/Machida. Regardless though, it might be fairly obvious but good lord does the UFC have a stacked Light Heavyweight Division right now.
Spencer— I don’t really think there’s a comparison, given that Silva has never punched Jackson repeatedly while the ref was trying to pull him off.
Ivan…Meltzer is a mark for good business. You have to see through that if you like to enjoy his style. He is 100% business over everything.
He gets not benefit of the doubt for taking so much time off from real competition.
Monson and Rizzo are probably better than most of the heavyweights on the UFC undercard. Its just that they fight for cheaper than Hardonk. In any case, I do think its funny that Randy Couture being KOed by a 2-1 heavyweight after taking 15 months off is better than winning 3 fights in 4 months after taking 15 months off.
Errr, Hardonk works cheaper than them is what I meant.
Zach’s comments about the people Josh Barnett “could beat” reveals a difference of opinion that exists about rankings.
Should they be based on the ranker’s subjective predictions of hypothetical match-ups, i.e. who is better in the abstract? - or should rankings be based on actual accomplishments, i.e. victories over other top-ranked fighters?
If we go by accomplishment, there are 15 Heavyweights who deserve to be ranked higher than Josh Barnett:
1. F.Emilianenko
2. Mir
3. Nogueira
4. Lesnar
5. Couture
6. Sylvia
7. Arlovski
8. Santos
9. Werdum
10. Gonzaga
11. Velasquez
12. O’Brien
13. Herring
14. Kongo
15. CroCop
So beating Couture the heavyweight champion isn’t as impressive as beating Jake O’Brien, post back surgery?
1. Evans
2. Griffin
3. Jackson
4. Henderson
5. Liddell
6. W.Silva
7. Jardine
8. Rua
9. Machida
10. Ortiz
11. T.Silva
Alan, not if the fight took place nearly 7 years ago, and especially not if the “winner” tested positive for steroids and was stripped of the belt.
“He took all of 2007 off. Since then, he has fought a Light Heavyweight (Yoshida), friend in glorified sparring session (Monson), Rizzo (washed up), and now a guy who hasn’t been a factor for years (Yvel).”
And Randy took more than a year off, then lost his “title” to an MMA newbie, but he’s ranked above Barnett.
Couture came back and fought a Top 10 fighter. Barnett came back and has yet to fight a Top 10 fighter yet.
Some people will try and hang onto anything non-UFC. Let’s face it, the UFC is where the real fights are happening. For every one Fedor/Arlovski fight, there are 10 fights in the UFC between Top 10 caliber fighters.
I dont see how Fedor’s wis over Noguiera suddenly look kinda of weak. Noguiera is a totally different fighter these days and its not last night was his 1st struggle in the UFC. The body can only take so much and eventually it will say enough is enough. As soon as I saw Big Nog I thought he looked like a guy struggling to keep in shape and once the fight starts u see how slow he his now and the reactions just aint there anymore.
Rampage was out of order. No need to continue punching. Wanderlei has been finished since the Cro crop brutal KO. That was the one that sent him on the slippery slope.
Gotta give it up for Mir. Never been a fan but he looked great. fantastic boxing and I think he will beat Lesner. He will submit Lesnar again.
“Couture came back and fought a Top 10 fighter. Barnett came back and has yet to fight a Top 10 fighter yet.”
Yeah, but the difference is that Barnett is WINNING those fights, and Couture lost to Lesnar. You can’t rank Couture higher just because he FOUGHT a top ten guy. Wait a minute! He didn’t fight a top ten guy! Lesnar wasn’t top ten until he beat Couture. Because going on accomplishments Lesnar should be lower on the top ten or fifteen because he BEAT only one top ten heavyweight (Couture). Because I don’t think Min Soo Kim and Heath Herring are top ten guys.
And according to your top ten heavyweight rankings, how is Sylvia higher ranked than Arlovski? Sylvia is 1-3 in his last four, losing his last two fights. And Arlovski won his last five fights against decent opposition.
You see, this is exactly the reason why fight math is absolute garbage. Oh, and for the most part the fights were pretty lame, shitty C-level kickboxing matches, save for some excellent knockouts. Even though Jackson was a douche for continuing his attack on an unconscious Silva. For my money K-1 is THE best fight promotion on this planet.
I agree with Chuck, Lesnar wasn’t top 10 until he fought Couture. He had a tough fight against Herring, and a good fight against Mir that he lost, but he wasn’t qualified (extenuating circustances set to the side) for a title fight yet.
I’m a Mir guy, but I think that anyone would say that it was a cleaner argument for Mir than for Lesnar to get a belt fight before Lesnar beat Couture and the whole situation kind of settled into focus, and there are those who would say that there are other guys who should have been in line before either of them.
Mirko Cro Cop lost to Cheick Kongo, making Cheick Top 10. Heath Herring beat Cheick Kongo, putting him in my Top 10. Brock Lesnar beat Heath Herring….
The ranking above that has Barnett out of the Top 15 is closer to realistic then a ranking that has Barnett at #4 (Sherdog) or #3 (WAMMA).
Then again, both of those rankings have Arlovski in their Top 5 as well, and are both knwn Zuffa haters.
Barnett continues to be the most overrated Heavyweight in the world today. He gets credit for going 1-1 against a slower Nogueira… But Mir gets shot down because of it by many. It’s a joke.
As for Sylvia… And I can’t stand the guy…. He has only lost to guys ranked higher then him. Because of that, he really can’t be ranked any lower. Arlovski is only beating guys ranked lower then him, which means he can’t move up any higher. So no matter how good Arlovski looks, until he beats a higher ranked opponent (or Sylvia loses to a lesser ranked opponent), he will continue to be ranked below Sylvia.
“You see, this is exactly the reason why fight math is absolute garbage. Oh, and for the most part the fights were pretty lame, shitty C-level kickboxing matches, save for some excellent knockouts. Even though Jackson was a douche for continuing his attack on an unconscious Silva. For my money K-1 is THE best fight promotion on this planet.”
I hope you are joking. K-1 is very much a joke these days. Even their MMA… They can’t hold onto their champions and have no Heavyweight or Light Heavyweight divisions (for the most part).
—”And according to your top ten heavyweight rankings, how is Sylvia higher ranked than Arlovski?”—
Sylvia beat Arlovski twice in a row, and Arlovski has yet to beat anyone better than Sylvia since then. Also, every loss Sylvia has on his record is to a guy that is currently in the top 5. That shouldn’t hurt a fighter’s rank when compared against guys who haven’t fought that level of competition.
—”I dont see how Fedor’s wis over Noguiera suddenly look kinda of weak. Noguiera is a totally different fighter these days and its not last night was his 1st struggle in the UFC.”—
But you have to ask yourself, with the recent drubbings of the old greats, how much is due to diminished fighting abilities, and how much is due to the fact that MMA is getting big and there are more hard-working, talented athletes in the sport than we had just a few years ago. We don’t really know, which is why old victories are starting to mean less and less.
With the recent collapse of Nog and Crocop, how do we know Fedor hasn’t also diminished as a fighter? Guys go from unbeatable hero to zero in less than 3 years in MMA. If you want to stay on top, you have to defend your throne against the new and improved talent.
Think about this: if Hughes quit the UFC after his win against Penn and never fought GSP or Alves, we’d proabably still be ranking him as the best WW in the world. All he would have to do is beat a guy like Diego Sanchez every year or two, and his situation would be analogous to the current Fedor situation.
Don’t get me wrong, Fedor may still very well be the best heavyweight in the world, but as time passes there’s going to be more questions raised. Fedor is still human, and he can be beat, as his recent Sambo matched showed.
By Sherdog Ranking Standards (not great, but used for example), GSP has 9 fights against the fighters ranked below him in the Top 10. Including his upcoming fight with BJ Penn, he has 12 fights total against ranked fighters from any division. And if he beats Penn, he gets to fight Alves, which would make #13. He is constantly fighting top guys.
Fedor Emelianenko on the other hand has 3 fights, with his 4th coming up against Andrei Arlovski.
Frank Mir will soon be in the Top 10, likely at #2. Which means when next months Top 10 comes out, Brock Lesnar will have already had 2 fights against current Top 10 fighters, with his 3rd coming up in the first half of 2009. And he has a fight career of less then 5 fights.
Fedor looks great, but if the majority of Top Talent is in the UFC, he will have to go there or fade into nowhere. You can’t keep your #1 status forever if the Top 10 continnues to change, and you have yet to fight that competition. And as good as Arlovski & Barnett have looked, they are not the best of the competition coming out of their respective companies. Barnett wasn’t even Top 2 in Pride. And neither was Arlovski in the UFC.
I propose a few amendments to Mmath, or the system of linear ranking, that make it more coherent:
1) Establish an arbitrary cut-off point before which fights no longer count. I propose 2 or 3 years…
2) In the case of loops, or 1-1 rematches, I propose privileging the more recent fight over the more distant one
With these two rules, you get a fair portrait of the rankings with a minimum of conjecture and speculation.
Alan, not if the fight took place nearly 7 years ago, and especially not if the “winner” tested positive for steroids and was stripped of the belt.
The result was never changed, just as Tim Sylvia’s win over Mega-Liddell was never changed. Couture lost to Barnett. Even then, Barnett has beaten a pair of top 20 heavyweights in the last year. Couture hasn’t.
> Wanderlei has been finished since the Cro crop brutal KO. That was the one that sent him on the slippery slope.
I think he was done before that fight. It’s the accumulated damage coming both from fights and training. Don’t you remember he was saying he let his heavy weight training partners hit him in the head to examine recovery speed? This guy is crazy and his fighting style would not guarantee a long career. (Barnett is the opposite. He’s smart enough to know when to quit taking punishment. )
>Think about this: if Hughes quit the UFC after his win against Penn and never fought GSP or Alves, we’d proabably still be ranking him as the best WW in the world. All he would have to do is beat a guy like Diego Sanchez every year or two, and his situation would be analogous to the current Fedor situation.
3 million dollars in front of you (for 6-fight contract) VS Sherdog MMA ranking top 3 award. Which do you prefer?
The only way for a MMA fighter to enjoy Fedor/F.Shamrock/Rickson situation (fight once a year and make millions) is to find a rich daddy who is not demanding like Zuffa or DSE.
Couture failed and Hughes also failed in doing that and then they came back to the octagon to get embarassed. But we all know they’re the real fighters and real humans.
I do think it’s kind of shocking just how much we have learned about the heavyweight division in the last two UFC PPVs.
We had two fights that many of us wouldn’t have booked, and the results seem to have really turned the division on it’s head.
It’s been an exciting year at heavyweight, something I would never have expected in January.
For a mega-card like last night’s to have only had one out of the three main event quality matches turn out to be competitive would be a pretty big disappointment under normal circumstances. But, obviously, last night was far from being “normal circumstances” as the two one sided contests featured major incidents of redemption.
The first being Rampage’s brutal revenge KO of Silva.
Which, certainly would have meant more had it taken place two or three years ago, but Wanderlei proved that he wasn’t a completely shot fighter with his brave stand against Liddell & his blow out of a still capable lower echelon contender in Keith Jardine.
So, Jackson’s quick victory has merit & definitely keeps him in the thick of things.
Was he overzealous with those last three un-necessary shots to Silva’s noggin?
Sure, but only the first of them appeared to me to be a solid blow. The last two were pulled.
Where does Silva go from here?
Hopefully for a nice long rest & then, I could see him return to the octagon in a series of “special added attraction” type matches vs men like Couture, Liddell in a rematch etc. …
Trumping Rampage’s revenge far more significantly as career redemption however, was Frank Mir’s one sided beat down of the legendary Nog.
Something that damn near no one expected to occur.
Mir’s three knockdown, second round TKO victory over the previously unstoppable, unsubmitted Big Nog was a a thing to behold from a fighter whose previous best victory via strikes took place in his rematch with the less than legendary Wes Simms.
“I hope you are joking. K-1 is very much a joke these days. Even their MMA… They can’t hold onto their champions and have no Heavyweight or Light Heavyweight divisions (for the most part).”
I said K-1 specifically, not DREAM. K-1 still has dumb assess like Bobby Olugun and HMC, but quality of fights they are up there. Oh, UFC is a close second, but K-1 usually has the most entertaining fight cards. DREAM is still one of the top dogs in MMA, but they will never be PRIDE.
“Sylvia beat Arlovski twice in a row, and Arlovski has yet to beat anyone better than Sylvia since then. Also, every loss Sylvia has on his record is to a guy that is currently in the top 5. That shouldn’t hurt a fighter’s rank when compared against guys who haven’t fought that level of competition.”
Okay, so just because someone lost to a bunch of top ten guys, that means they are top ten? I don’t think so. So that means Elvis Sinosic and Akira Shoji were two of the best fighters from the 1990’s. And George “Scrap Iron” Johnson is one of the best heavyweight boxers from the 60’s and 70’s. Every single fighter mentioned deserves some sort of credit, but top ten or so recognition? Hell no!
Alan Conceicao Says: Even then, Barnett has beaten a pair of top 20 heavyweights in the last year. Couture hasn’t.
Barnett hasn’t beaten anyone the caliber of either Tim Sylvia or Gabriel Gonzaga in recent fights. Couture is fighting better opposition than Barnett.
Chuck Says: Okay, so just because someone lost to a bunch of top ten guys, that means they are top ten? I don’t think so.
I agree here. How many guys have fought top level competition and never won that could get a top ten ranking. In wrestling terms they have a name for this: JTTS. Jobber to the Stars. A JTTS is not a top star, they just work against them. Same thing here.
Personally I rank Arlovski higher than Sylvia because he’s fought some really decent opponents and beat them since that last loss to Sylvia while Sylvia has dropped key fights to Couture, Nog and Fedor and looked outclassed in at least two of those.
Rp
I like how
ivan did not mention the fact that Rampage checked on Wand’s condition while he was out. And please he pulled all of those punches until he was sure he won.
Wow, he checked on his condition after he punched him twice in the head after he was already unconscious and after the ref was actively trying to pull him off. How very classy of him.
“Okay, so just because someone lost to a bunch of top ten guys, that means they are top ten?”
No. It works like this.
Fighter A beats Fighter B, not once, but twice.
Fighter A loses to 3 top 5 HW’s.
Fighter B beats two borderline top 20 HW’s.
Fighter B does not pass fighter A in the rankings.
Just so that we’re all on the same page:
-Barnett beating Noguiera in one of their two fights over two years ago doesn’t count
-Barnett beating Couture doesn’t count
-Barnett winning 3 fights in the last year doesn’t count
-Couture fighting once in 16 months and losing by KO counts more than Barnett beating anyone
-Barnett losing to Cro-Cop over 2 years ago counts
-Losing fights against guys ranked below you elevates them and doesn’t change your status. Winning fights against guys ranked below you means that you are overprotected and should drop in ratings.
This sounds entirely fair. Thanks for the clarification!
LOL Alan Conceicao - you’re starting to catch on to the Fight Opinion logic.
Realistically, the top 10 heavyweights are whomever the UFC tells us they are. They bury and push whomever is marketable for them, and the guys who put the most asses in the seats (and who get along personally with Dana) get the opportunities.
- In 2007, Brock Lesnar’s only UFC accomplishment is beating an unranked Heath Herring by decision…so now he’s #1 contender. OK.
- Yushin Okami is the #1 contender for the Middleweight Title, yet he’s on the undercard and never mentioned by anyone. Alright then.
- Throughout his title reign, Dana White tells us that “Whether we like his style or not”, Tim Sylvia is the best in the world…but once he leaves the UFC and gets killed by Fedor, White laughs “EVERYBODY beats Sylvia!” to diminish Fedor’s win. Sure.
- Dana White tells us that “Fedor needs to come to the UFC and face the best in the world”…when Nogueira is the UFC champion.
It’s a joke.
“No. It works like this.
Fighter A beats Fighter B, not once, but twice.
Fighter A loses to 3 top 5 HW’s.
Fighter B beats two borderline top 20 HW’s.
Fighter B does not pass fighter A in the rankings.”
That is a very crappy and very flawed logic. As others said here, Couture fought only one in the past 16 months, and LOST to Brock Lesnar, who wasn’t a top ten fighter. Check out the RING ratings for boxing and you show me ONE fighter that is there on a three fight losing streak or a guy who fought once in the past 16 months and lost that fight. RING magazine almost did it when Valuev recently beat Holyfield, and Nigel Collins admitted that they were thinking of giving Holyfield a number ten ranking for what should have been a victory over Valuev, but was screwed by the judges. But RING magazine, in the end, showed better judgement than that. I know you used Sylvia and Arlovski as examples, and I would still rank Sylvia over Couture ovber the fact that Sylvia did lose to three top 5 guys, and Couture lost to an unranked guy. But Arlovski should be ranked over both of them.
Let’s see if I’ve got this down:
Theoretically, let’s say Fedor doesn’t fight in January. Affliction goes bust and he ends up fighting in Moscow for M-1 next May, 10 months after his last fight. He fights fringe contender/BJJ specialist Pe De Pano and is comprehensively beaten. Based on the logic I see here, Pe De Pano becomes the top heavyweight on the planet, based on the win over Fedor and prior victory win over current #2 ranked Mir. Fedor falls to maybe #4. You guys agree?
–”Just so that we’re all on the same page:”–
We’re not on the same page at all. I was specifically refering to the case of Sylvia and Arlovski. I don’t know why you changed the conversation to Barnett.
To quickly sum it up, Nog beat Barnett in their most recent match, and that takes precedent, but some credit must be given for taking Nog to a SD victory. Barnett beating Couture absolutely does not count. The guys Barnett beat in the last 16 months aren’t anywhere near a top 10 list. It’s a win, but it’s not a relevant win for comparing two of the best guys in the division. Anyone in the top 10 is supposed to soundly beat those guys, it doesn’t prove anything. Losing of course would, and I’ll get on that in the next part:
–”Losing fights against guys ranked below you elevates them and doesn’t change your status. Winning fights against guys ranked below you means that you are overprotected and should drop in ratings.”–
No, losing fights against fighters ranked higher than you doesn’t lower your status, and beating guys considerably lower ranked than you doesn’t raise your status. All it means is that your ranking was correct. On the other side of the coin, beating a guy higher ranked raises your status, and losing to a guy that’s lower ranked hurts your status.
As for how far you fall when you lose to a lower ranked opponent, it depends on the specifics. Was your opponent a potentially great but still unproven fighter, a former great that faltered in a couple of fights, or was he a proven middle of the pack fighter. If it’s the former two you don’t necessarily fall much, the last one plummets you.
This logic assumes the fight is taken in a vacuum, without fighters sharing common opponents. With common opponents it’s much messier than this, but luckily with the specific case of Arlovski and Sylvia, they don’t really have any common opponents. Arlovski never fought the guys Tim lost to, and Tim didn’t fight the guys Arlovski has recently beaten, so we can’t compare performances.
Until Sylvia loses to someone worse than Arlovski or Arlovski beats someone better than Sylvia, then Sylvia’s wins over Arlovski hold precedent.
iThe guys Barnett beat in the last 16 months aren’t anywhere near a top 10 list. It’s a win, but it’s not a relevant win for comparing two of the best guys in the division.
BS. Couture has one fight and lost and was beaten quite badly by a guy barely in the top 10, yet you suggest he should keep his position near/in the top 5. There’s no drop commensurate with the inactivity or the results. Couture should barely be in the top ten right now, same with Noguiera, Barnett slightly above them for beating guys that his ranking indicated he should beat and doing so in rather dominating fashion. Otherwise, it seems to me that Couture could be 50 and hold onto his ranking as long as he keeps losing (no matter how badly) to the revolving door of top UFC contenders.
As for how far you fall when you lose to a lower ranked opponent, it depends on the specifics. Was your opponent a potentially great but still unproven fighter, a former great that faltered in a couple of fights, or was he a proven middle of the pack fighter. If it’s the former two you don’t necessarily fall much, the last one plummets you.
And so that brings us to Mir/Nog. I can’t think of a more middle of the pack fighter than the modern day Frank Mir. If losing to a guy like that doesn’t plummet you, then there’s no continuity. I have no problem picking Mir up significantly, but Noguiera needs a drastically reconsidered position in the rankings after getting knocked down 4 times by Frank Mir.
The only argument that has Mir above mediocrity coming in is that a 1-0 fighter he beat turned around and ended up winning the title almost a calendar year later, yet none of those people are suggesting that Joaquim Ferrera should be in the top 10-15, much less all the other ways it cuts.
What people are pointing to is:
The objective ranking system (based on actual wins) doesn’t spontaneously reflect the sudden deterioration of a once-great fighter, even when the deterioration is subjectively obvious to a viewer of the fighter’s latest bout.
I think that’s a minor flaw in the system we might have to live with. A fighter may in actuality decline at a faster rate than he plummets in the rankings, but eventually, the ranking will purge the fighter from its lists.
To use Alan’s example:
If Couture loses to a bunch of of up-and-comers, each one of them will take a higher place in the rankings than Couture, which will drag down his position on the list. Within a few losses he’ll be out of the Top-X lists.
Now the period spanning “a few fights” might consist of a year or more, and during this period, the fighter’s ranking might seem subjectively “too high”, because it’s obvious he has lost his touch or fighting spirit. Nevertheless, until the fighter’s decline is confirmed in actual losses in the ring, such an opinion is purely speculate and cannot be reflected in the rankings.
This might be the case we’re about to see with Nogueira. In recent fights he hasn’t been the Nog we know. But let’s say he fights three times in 2009, loses twice and wins once, all against Top 10 competition - he would still be ranked in the Top 10. And I can live with that.
This would be a good time for Zach to poll 20 other MMA writers on their top tens by division and use points accumulated to decide position (aka 10 points for being ranked #1, 1 point for #10). Then there will be a more subjective opinion that decides these rankings.
Rp
— Ivan sez; Wow, he checked on his condition after he punched him twice in the head after he was already unconscious and after the ref was actively trying to pull him off. How very classy of —
I almost wonder if every Ivan post is really Ivan, or if somebody is like making troll posts under his name sometimes.
He knocks him out, and honestly, maybe the ref should have jumped in sooner? He landed one good shot when he was down and the ref was pulling him off as he was going for two and three, the second which somewhat landed and the third he was able to catch before he threw.
Right now, you could say that the Affliction top 3 is 1) Fedor, 2) Arlovski, 3) Barnett.
And in the UFC, you could argue it’s 1) Mir, 2) Lesnar, 3) Nogueira.
Since, out of the 3 from the UFC and the 3 from Affliction, there has been very little cross-over (Barnett and Nog have beaten each other, and Fedor has beaten Nog twice) it’s impossible to accurately rank them.
We can definitely determine if Fedor is better than Arlovski or of Mir can beat Lesnar again - those matches are set - but saying anyone from column A could beat anyone else from column B is pure speculation.
And no one can say “Fighter A would DEFINITELY kill fighter B” because we heard that crap for months before Mir demolished Nogueira.
Hopefully Affliction will fold, and Zuffa can sign 3 of the best HW figthers in the world. Then we can REALLY see who’s the best (in *2009*) - because until that happens, no ‘ranking’ is relevant in any way. It’s barely worth discussing.
If Couture loses to a bunch of of up-and-comers, each one of them will take a higher place in the rankings than Couture, which will drag down his position on the list. Within a few losses he’ll be out of the Top-X lists.
Now the period spanning “a few fights” might consist of a year or more, and during this period, the fighter’s ranking might seem subjectively “too high”, because it’s obvious he has lost his touch or fighting spirit. Nevertheless, until the fighter’s decline is confirmed in actual losses in the ring, such an opinion is purely speculate and cannot be reflected in the rankings.
Going back to the example of Couture: Let’s say he’s the #5 heavyweight in the world right now. As such, he doesn’t fight for another 12-15 months, at which point he loses to a Frank Mir, himself fresh off a loss to Brock Lesnar. Does the win validate Mir? Probably not, because Couture would be over 46 years of age and without a win in over 2 years. Alternately, if you decide like 45 that rankings are somehow linear and beating someone allows you to take their ranking regardless of where you are in the chain beforehand, Mir would probably still be ranked higher than Couture going in, and Couture wouldn’t take much of a hit coming out. 12 months later, a nearly 48 year old Couture could waltz into a fight with someone like Cain Velasquez in essentially the same position.
Meanwhile, Barnett or Arlovski could very easily beat another 4-5 fringe contenders/borderline top 10 talent over the same time period leading up to the theoretical Mir/Couture bout each while suffering losses to each other or Fedor. Again, using the method you’re putting forth klown, Barnett is better off not fighting anyone unless they’re higher ranked than himself, and someone like Fedor is in a helluva pickle given that he’s the unequivocal #1. Neither can be given any credit for their wins. Meanwhile, they can be dropped in the rankings for not beating “suitable” opposition while guys who flat out don’t fight get to stay where they are.