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The future of WEC and Urijah Faber remains very uncertain
By Zach Arnold | April 26, 2010
Here’s what we do know coming out of this weekend’s event at Arco Arena in Sacramento:
- Dana White would be interested in seeing Jose Aldo fight at Bantamweight, Featherweight, and Lightweight. He even indicated that he would like to see Aldo fight at 155 in UFC. Read the linked article to also get quotes from the UFC President about the future of WEC’s Lightweight division.
- People are starting to turn on Urijah Faber, including The Sacramento Bee which advises Faber to retire. Smarter advice — drop down to Bantamweight and fight at 135 pounds. A fight against Miguel Torres would be great. Both men are coming off of losses and it would be a fight people would pay to see. Mr. Faber is in no mood to retire. In watching his interview with CBS13 in Sacramento, it was painful to see him walking around in crutches. One listen to the CBS interview and you can see why Faber is not going to lose any fans any time soon. (I’ll see if I can transcribe his full interview later tonight or early tomorrow.)
Looking ahead to what UFC is up to next…
- MMA’s legitimacy could be placed in Randy Couture’s hands. That’s the headline of an ESPN UK article talking about all the rumors swirling regarding a bout between James Toney and Randy Couture being discussed for UFC’s first Boston event.
Nick Diaz claims that UFC wants to bring him in again. Shields, Diaz, perhaps Melendez… that CBS brawl really hurt their stock… - Jon Jones says he wants a highly risky fight for his next bout. I understand he dismantled Brandon Vera, but he should relax and take a slower build instead of letting the UFC matchmaking machine grind him up and spit him out.
- Phil Davis returned back to Penn State country over the weekend for an MMA seminar and reflected upon his career so far in the UFC.
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, WEC, Zach Arnold | 110 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
I’d like to see Jones be developed more safely – maybe a fight with Matyushenko to see how he does with a big wrestler? – but if he wants to take chances, who am I to say no?
Aldo beating up Faber is great, but I still have no idea how good the guy really is. Can’t we have him fight Manny Gamburyan? If he can beat Manny, then maybe we can talk about him being an effective lightweight. If he can’t, then the whole featherweight class was overrated in a P4P sense from the get-go.
I never looked at Mike Brown and said – here is one of the best P4P fighters in the world.
I feel awful for him, and his world has gotten flipped over recently. But the division was just waiting for a youngster to come in and overtake him. Even Faber probably would have had he not – been an idiot, and then broken both hands in the rematch.
Faber’s status as a fan favourite is definitely deserved. A charistmatic, well-spoken, humble guy with a toughness most can’t even imagine. He really could be a big star if he were the best in his weight class. Maybe 135 would really be better for him, as long as Aldo doesn’t follow him down.
“I never looked at Mike Brown and said – here is one of the best P4P fighters in the world.”
I completely agree with this statement. I would hear the PFP talks and immediately think of his fights with Imanari, or further back against Sudo. Even with his power his standup never impressed me.
1) Urijah Faber has always belonged at Bantamweight anyways. He was the smaller guy against Mike Brown. It just took an increase in talent level to push him out of Featherweight. I like seeing stuff like this happen. Shows that the divisions are becoming more mature and we are getting closer to what they should be. Keep in mind that Faber has already beaten the champion of that weight class….
2) Jon Jones should not rush himself. There is no reason in doing so.
3) I hate all of this talk about Jose Aldo moving to different weight classes. WTF!!! He is 2-0 in title fights. MMA fans are pathetically bad at looking for any sort of story that they start pushing for this garbage. A fighter has one or two dominant performances and then they start clamouring for them to move classes. Dana White is stupid for allowing the conversation to even take place. He should be nipping this stuff in the butt instantly. First, it is stupid to move weight divisions anyways. Let them dominate for years. Secondly, there are still many more good challenges for him, including Manny Gamburyan & Josh Grispi.
I have mixed feelings about the proposed Couture-Toney match up.
As a lifelong fan of boxing stretching back to the mid ’70s & an MMA since UFC 2, I sincerely doubt that any one fight is going to legitimize or harm one sport or another. But, a win or loss by either fighter could go a ways into defining their careers as a whole. Moreso with “The Natural’s” as they’ll be competing in his game.
I’ll be cheering for Toney because boxing is my first love & I’ve been a big fan of Toney’s since he was fighting in prelims on ESPN 20 years ago.
So, I’m hoping that Toney can get Randy out of there early with a shot to the chin like Mercer did to Silvia, ’cause if he can’t then I’ll likely be witness to one of my fav all time boxers getting ground & pounded out in rather embarrassing fashion.
But, better by an MMA legend rather than by someone that the public at large has never heard of, which very well could happen were the powers that be to take the slow road with him.
I mean, let’s face it, no matter how well Toney listens to & learns from Ibarra over the next few months, he’s 42 not 32.
The whole excuse that Zuffa didn’t brand the WEC PPV because it’s being aired on two networks is ludicrous. Aren’t they also airing UFC shows on Versus? Why are those shows branded as UFC events while the WEC PPV wasn’t branded at all? On top of that, it seems they won’t be branding the next WEC show either. It is being advertised as just Varner vs. Shalorus. It seems to me they’re really planning to fold the WEC into the UFC.
I don’t know if the twitter name means anything, but I’m pretty sure it is something like: WEConVersus
Perhaps the agreement is that they cannot have WEC on any other channel (Spike). It’s not implausible as WEC has less leverage than the UFC.
On the other hand, it is awfully convenient. In any event, it was a good weekend and if the WEC is closer being absorbed by the UFC, everyone should be happier.
Spike wouldn’t promote it unless they removed the branding, including from the PPV itself, since WEC doesn’t air on their network at all. The UFC can go on Versus because they have it written into their deal with Spike that they can do something like 4 shows a year with another network. Any other questions?
is faber did drop weight and came out with a loss, maybe retirement is the next option
No one is grinding up Jon Fitch and spitting him out. He’s not Mousasi. He is the future, and I would make him the favorite against anyone at 205. Lyoto, Shogun, Rampage,…anyone.
Also, I would rather see Faber go up in weight. His speed could be useful against guys like Terry Etim, Paul Kelly, Dos Anjos or even a guy as good as Sotiropolous.
Again I don’t think he’d ever be a title challenger though.
Jon Jones* not Fitch.
Tito Ortiz beat up Jenna Jameson…. All over the news.
I’m not one to promote violence against women… But you marry a porn star… You bring the drama into the relationship…. Stuff like happens.
You marry drama free and stuff like this has a much less chance of happening….
“I’m not one to promote violence against women… But you marry a porn star… You bring the drama into the relationship…. Stuff like happens.”
Interesting paragraph. It starts by stating you’re not going to promote violence against women, but you end it by excusing a violent act against a woman.
Well played, sir.
My point is that if you live with crazy… Things will happen to you….
I wouldn’t put it past Jenna to slap him first and I highly doubt Ortiz is the restraining type….
Porn stars are known wack jobs. So are the people who have relationships with them…
It’s way early to start the speculating and discussing, no?
Well the Franklin vs. Liddell fight continues to look even better now, I have no clue what happened but it looks like Dana dodged another bullet guy has to have somebody looking out for him because he always comes out on top.
Dana ought to come out and cut Tito right now: establish that there is no room for this sort of behaviour in his promotional company. I’m sorta bummed by thinking that’s not a likely scenario.
Isn’t that something like what happened with Mayhem when he got cut. I know it was a girlfriend and not a “wife” but kinda the same.
Of course, Miller wasn’t anywhere near Ortiz’s popularity back then.
45 just because you have issues with women doesn’t mean one who used to have sex for a living on camera is crazy. Jenna is actually one of the few porn stars who got out of the industry with her life intact. She’s a millionaire from a few ventures instead of allowing drugs to destroy her life or staying in the industry so long they’re stuck doing cougar-porn.
And it doesn’t matter what she said or did to Tito. You don’t hit a woman. Especially when you’re a professional fighter who regularly fights men twice the woman’s size (or probably 3 times the size of Jenna these days.)
Dana will have to do something. This is going to be a big news story since Jameson is (I think) the biggest porn star of all-time. And to be cynical it would be a great way to get rid of Tito’s overpriced contract since he’s clearly not a draw anymore but is being paid on his 2006 buyrate numbers. And if he goes to Strikeforce so what? He’ll fight Dan Henderson and nobody will care.
“You don’t hit a woman.”
Its ok to hit a guy though?
No, domestic violence charges should go both ways, although most men wouldn’t file anything because of the embarrassment factor. But come on, what damage could Jenna Jameson possibly do to anybody if she hit them? She weighs like 60 pounds. If she put on brassknuckles and hit him square in the face she’d maybe leave a light bruise.
Tito is obviously very talented at stalling fights and doing absolutely nothing. Couldn’t he just pretend he’s in the Octagon and lay on Jenna for 15 minutes until she calmed down?
It’s not OK, for sure…but come on, be a fcuking man. Seriously. Take the hit, walk away.
If a girl can cause THAT much damage by hitting a man, he’s not THAT much of a man anyway, is he?
What if she had a knife, or a gun? Or something heavy enough to hit you in the head and drop you?
Not saying she did, but the blanket “never ok to hit a woman” is both wrong and fairly sexist. Women can be just as insanely dangerous as men.
The details are scarce, but unless Jenna was threatening his life (ie. she had a knife or gun) there is absolutely no excuse for a physical attack of any kind.
A woman slaps you? Man up. Walk away and come back later when things have cooled down.
I know Tito isn’t in his prime anymore but I doubt he’d get KTFO by a retired 98-pound porn star (or maybe I’m giving Tito too much credit).
I was once slapped by a girlfriend who accused me of cheating. There was a “HEY WHAT THE HELL!” shock adrenaline rush that immediately went through my body. But I realized it was a woman and striking back is pointless, wrong, and not worth a criminal charge. I realize that maybe for a pro fighter used to throwing counterstrikes maybe it was just a reflex and he’s never hit a woman before and never would again. But it still cannot be excused.
And if the knife story is true you could disarm her without punching her. Actually you should secure the arm before doing anything in a situation when someone has a weapon. Let her go to jail for attempted assault by just disarming, restraining and calling the cops. Or just talk some sense into her.
Bro, we’re not talking about Cris Cyborg here. We’re talking about the average 100-140 pound woman around 5’3″-5’9″ tall. The average man is 170-220 pounds and 5’8″-6’3″ tall. With superior upper body strength, it’s no contest. Women slap, women scratch, maybe throw windmill punches. Men throw punches to do damage. Big difference. Tito, as a wrestler, knows more than enough about restraining without punches.
100 pounds doesn’t make much difference to a knife to the chest, or to a bullet.
I agree with you that its never ok to hit a woman who poses no threat, which I would say is 99% of UNARMED confrontations between a man and a woman. But for all we know Jenna came at him with a knife, and Tito threw a hard punch to her face in reaction.
We don’t have all the evidence yet, which is why condemning Tito with the words “its never ok to hit a woman” is just wrong. Its LIKELY that he beat up an unarmed woman, but lets have a bit of reason before we crucify him. We don’t know all the facts, and there are special circumstances where it is ok to hit a woman.
Oh, and FYI, the average weight of a man is 150-200 for the 25th-75th percentile. 130 or 140 pound guys aren’t all that rare.
Now that I look at it, the 25th-75th percentile for women’s weight is 130-180. So there are tons and tons of circumstances where a man will be confronted by a woman his weight. Not that that is an instantaneous excuse, but automatically assuming that all women are too weak to hurt a man is just dangerous thinking.
I agree 100%.
Doing that right now gives you positive currency in the public debate.
It may not seem like a big deal but it will the next time there is an incident. For example lets say something terrible happens and a fighter dies in mysterious circumstances, kills someone or assaults someone or you get another Lee Murray.
You’ll get newspaper and TV articles at that point. After explaining the future case there will be one of two sentences:
1. The UFC has had a history of fighters engaging in bad behavior. In 2010 former champion Tito Ortiz beat up his porn star wife. He headlined UFC xxx y months later.
or
2. The UFC has a zero tolerance policy for outside the cage antics. In 2010 former champion Tito Ortiz (recap exactly what happened) he was cut immediately.
I get a sick feeling in my stomach for both sports if the Toney v. Couture match is made. In an ideal world it would be promoted in a sporting manner, two vets and legends testing their skills. In this world, and with Toney’s big mouth, the media will spin this in such a way that one side or the other, or both, will come away with a black eye.
I have a feeling Randy rushes at Toney. Catches a jab to the chin and does the chicken dance as Toney blasts him with a 2, 3 and 2 (Couture is halfway to the mat by this point).
Afterwards he sticks a cigar in his mouth and slurs his way through a homophobic, racist rant that includes terrorist threats for future opponents. At the end it will be drowned out by the sound of a money machine counting Zuffa’s take on his next fight.
They need to keep Toney on the shelf indefinitely.
C’mon, admit you have a morbid curiosity for this train wreck. Rarely is it guaranteed that a fight is going to be a total s***show in a funny and crazy way.
I’m almost as pumped for this fight as I was Zab Judah/Cotto.
I do admit to loving a good freak show.
Yep, you’re right. Bring on the train wreck!
Hell’s ya, bring on the freak show!
“and slurs his way through a homophobic, racist rant that includes terrorist threats for future opponents.”
I got some looks in the office because I just LOLd(literally) at that statement. Well done.
Oh, and ……
http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/26/tito-ortiz-handcuffs-arrest-jenna-jameson-photos/
That\’s why you’ve got to cut him. If he proves his innocence he can come back.
To add insult to injury he’s wearing fight shorts.
This is gonna be so ugly.
I wonder what they’ll do about TUF. If this explodes into a huge scandal, TUF will get much bigger ratings, but should the UFC even keep showing TUF under those circumstances? Could they get out of it?
Tito Ortiz should not be cut by Dana White today. But if he is convicted of this felony…. A long suspension should at least be part of his penalty from the UFC. Perhaps a year…. Not sure what is the good time frame.
I feel bad for Tito. i think deep down he means well… But he doesn’t have the ability to control his actions…. There are many guys like that…. Good guys who will always have issues.
The problem is basketball tried that approach and it destroyed the NBA’s credibility and audience.
The NFL on the other hand actually has more guys doing bad things than the NBA (to be fair they have quadruple the athletes) but the NFL has an iron hand with these guys and people don’t associate the degenerate behavior of the athletes with the league.
Yes. Ben Roethlisberger isn’t being charged with anything, but he’ll still be suspended 6 games for even embarrassing them with the allegations of raping two women.
And Shawn Merriman was accused to choking Tila Tequilla and was suspended until the police dropped charges last year.
And UFC is in the lucky position where he doesn’t have to fight every week so they can just not have him fight without anybody really noticing. He wasn’t fighting Liddell anyway.
As for TUF, I don’t think it should be pulled. This was clearly filmed before April 26th and he supposedly leaves half way through the season anyway. If he killed her there would be an argument for pulling the season, but for this without a conviction when he isn’t even on the full season keep running it. Maybe have a edited-in message from Dana before this week’s episode saying they’re looking into the matters and taking it seriously.
Wow. Haven’t you ever taken a martial arts or self-defense class, or even opened up a random issue of Black Belt Magazine? You DON’T STRIKE SOMEONE WITH A WEAPON. You secure their arm and disarm them. Real defense isn’t a Chuck Norris movie where you roundhouse kick them before they can stab you. If Tito threw a punch at Jenna with a knife, he’s leaving himself wide open to getting stabbed in the chest.
Uh, I’m sure the tabloid media would love to include an angle to the story involving Jenna with a weapon if there was one, don’t you think? Do you work for Team Punishment or something?
What is your problem, Mark? Do you have a sister that was beat up by a guy, and now you have it out for any man who touches a woman?
I’ve taken self defense classes, but automatically assuming that every man in the world has, or KNOWS the right way to react to a knife or a gun in his face. . . I don’t know what to tell you.
And TMZ doesn’t exactly have all the info. Or do you think the police would have come out brandishing a knife and yelling “Jenna threatened him with this! Look at it!”
And just to add on to what I said, even if you know the right way to react to a weapon, who says in the heat of the moment you will react the right way?
I have a family member who suffered domestic violence, so yes I have no tolerance from it.
If you and 45 want to go play in your He-Man Woman Hater’s Club and think up excuses for why it’s ok, then great. But in the real world that doesn’t fly and you just look like two misogynistic idiots.
Well, I know what to tell you: it’s common sense if you lunge at someone you’re leaving yourself open. With the fabled knife you’re discussing that’s, you know, bad.
Uh, if Tito said “she tried to stab me”, she’d go to jail with him.
OK, so you are biased and unreasonable. I won’t discuss with you any more.
We are realistic people. I’ve never hit a woman…. But I also know that the majority of times it takes 2 to tango…
Of course there are always those controlling men who just control and beat their wives for practically no reason. But that is the minority of cases.
Most happen from an altercation…. And many times women are hardly innocent bi-standards.
Mark you just seem like you don’t know much about the world through the comments in this article. Citing reading about self defense in a magazine as if it would help you in the REAL WORLD is one of the saddest things I have seen written on this site.
It is insanely hard to prepare for genuine combat situations while you’re in the military, and it is even harder to react the right way to violent situations while in a supposed “calm environment.”
With all that said there is no report of weapons or anything like that involved in these reports. I’ll reserve judgement until further details are brought out.
http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/26/jenna-jameson-bandage-photo-tito-ortiz-domestic-violence-arrest/
He didn’t punch her in the face…. It’s her arm…
I bet he grabbed her after an altercation and she called the cops.
Hardly a wife beater.
It is definitely wrong to hit a woman, unless it is in self-defense. The idiocy on here saying that a small woman can’t hurt you is embarrassing and sexist. If you are a 200 pound man and a 140 pound man comes up to you and punches you in the face, dont you have a right to defend yourself? Why is it different for a man and a woman? It’s good to see sexism is alive and well. Do you really think a punch to the head from another human being doesn’t warrant some kind of self-defense? He hit her in the arm, and she is probably insane enough to have started it. If he hit her for no reason, then he is guilty, but if she hit him first, then fuck her.
That’s another MAN. Men have superior strength to all women. Even Cris Cyborg. That’s why women weightlifters don’t lift above waist-level and their records are over 500 pounds less than men’s records. That’s why women don’t play in men’s sports. Especially combat sports. And have you ever heard the phrase “you punch like a girl?” They say that for a reason.
Where is sexism coming into play? Am I sexist against my own gender because I don’t care if Jenna slapped him or announced the twins were really Tiki’s, that he shouldn’t have hit her as was the report?
45 & Michaelthebox, WTF?
Do you both have women issues or what?!!
Sure seems like it.
You’re both coming up with any sort of “special circumstances” that would allow Ortiz to be excused for his behavior rather than what’s most likely to be the truth. He got pissed during a heated argument with Jenna & roughed her up.
All these speculations about her brandishing some sort of deadly weapon are just your attempts to apologize for his unacceptable behavior. And your strong hints that his physical abuse was somehow caused by and/or excusable because she used to make her living in the sex industry is nothing less than mysogenistic.
Who cares WHAT she used to do or what she does to make $$$, she’s the mother of his children & what he did was wrong. Plain & simple.
Coming up with scenarios which would make this a case of self defense on his part is just desperate & rediculous. Were this the case then BOTH parties would have been taken in, not just Ortiz.
bluerosekiller, did you miss the very simple statement I made, “its never ok to hit a woman who poses no threat”?
If you think that either a) women can NEVER be a dangerous threat, you’re a misogynist. If you think b) that even if they are dangerous, it is never ok for a man to defend himself with force, you’re a misandrist. If you are either, you are an idiot.
I never stated nor implied that it’s not OK for a man to defend himself against an aggressive woman brandishing a weapon.
I’ve been in a situation in which I’ve had to restrain a woman who’d just stabbed me in the lip with a fork during a domestic argument & I’ve had a very close friend of mine killed by his wife with a steak knife to the chest. Him being a good heavyweight whom I’d fought on the same cards with back in the day.
So, I fully understand the dangers that an infuriated woman can pose to a man, even one completely able to defend himself.
What I have an issue with regarding this thread is all the speculation that Ortiz MUST have been defending himself against the “crazy porn star” or that her prior occupation somehow makes aggression against her excusable.
And I never said that Ortiz MUST have been defending himself against the “crazy porn star”.
In fact, to quote myself, “Its LIKELY that (Tito) beat up an unarmed woman”, and “its never ok to hit a woman who poses no threat, which I would say is 99% of UNARMED confrontations between a man and a woman”.
If Tito did indeed beat up a woman who posed no imminent threat to him, by all means toss him in jail and throw away the key. However, I feel very strongly against the automatic crucifixion of a man who has been ACCUSED, but not yet PROVEN to be guilty.
Please do not paint me with the brush of implying that Jenna did anything to deserve it. I never made any comments about her porn star status. I simply detest the tendency to automatically condemn any man ever accused of anything.
Let me repeat: if Tito is guilty, fuck him. Just so all the crazy people on here don’t get confused.
Sorry guys but anyone who is trying to cook up a situation where Tito is in the right for hitting his wife has serious problems. Sure, we can play make believe and create a fantasy where Jenna had a knife or knows supper Kung-Fu but back here in reality she is a tiny waif and he is a fucking brute.
There is NO WAY he should have been beating on her even if she did take a swing first.
1) Never said it was right to hit a woman.
2) Jenna is a known drama queen with reports back in the day of her and Tito getting into huge verbal arguments at clubs.
3) The mere fact that Jenna accused Tito of doing something means he goes to jail. It’s the way the laws work. So far there is nothing definitive that has shown us that he beat her. She was busy twittering soon after the incident… As well as talking to reporters… If it was a real beating…. She wouldn’t have been doing any of that.
4) There was a study that was released a little white ago that over 25% of women who reported being RAPED by men were in fact lying about it. RAPE! Makes you wonder how many lying or fabricate domestic abuse. Domestic Abuse is a real issue, but I’m not about the bury somebody just because a former porn star cries afoul….
There a a lot of women who egg on men. Slap them, hit them…. And then they don’t expect to even have a finger layed on them in return. Jenna comes across as exactly that type of person. From the looks of it, Ortiz likely grabbed her by the arm and shook her. There is nothing else showing he did any other sort of damage.
If that is the case…. And if I was a betting man… I bet that is what happened after some provocing by her…. He deserves community service… Which is hardly news worthy stuff….
Like I said above…. you marry a woman like that…. drama will follow you around….
1)You just totally degraded/insulted/marginalized the alleged victim and thought up scenarios where it would be excusable to do it.
2) Maybe Tito’s just as big or a bigger drama queen?
3) Have you ever been physically assaulted by your domestic partner? Do you know anyone that has? How the hell are you able to judge what the “proper reaction” is in each particular case?
“She provoked him” = she got what she deserved. Nice frothing misogyny there.
They aren’t married.
Tito is a trained fighter and much bigger then her. If he hit her she would have been on the ground probably knocked out with a huge marks on her body. There is no other way around it. See what tiny Mr. Brown did to Rihanna to see what real domestic abuse looks like.
Yes, I know somebody who was abused badly actually. And that’s why I’m laughing at this one…. It shows none of the signs of it and all the signs of a drama queen women. Real domestic abuse is a serious thing. This doesn’t smell of real domestic abuse.
And you ignored my 4th point. Women are known liars with studies to prove it. Not just my opinion. And that is on serious things such as rape. Until the facts come out, Tito Ortiz is innocent…..
A few more things….
1) Bond has been set at $25,000 which is pretty low. Which means the facts probably don’t support a real beating here…..
2) Jenna Jameson was gang raped when she was younger. By like 8 guys or something like that. She has had MAJOR trauma in her past. That single episode is probably what led her to porn. I think it is pretty fair to generalize that basically all major porn stars are not right in the head. Which is why they went into the industry. Just because she was smart enough to make millions from the industry doesn’t mean she is void of the same mental issues the rest of those women have. Which makes her a non credible person when she calls the cops and then has no real bruises to show for it. Reports are that she didn’t even go to the doctors afterwards…..
Like I said… I know somebody who was the victim of real spousal abuse. And that is a sad hurtful thing for a woman to go through. This story has none of those signs.
So you can think I’m crazy for laughing about it or not taking it seriously… but I wouldn’t be shocked if the charges are dropped within a month.
I ignored your 4th “point” because I suspected it was going to be some horseshit “study”, which of course it turned out was a distorted/misinterpreted (by you and your source editorialist) “study” from Fox News of all places.
The “point” and its evidence doesn’t even deserve a rebuttal.
WTF is going on here?!? Why am I not surprised that Michaelthebox and 45 are the leaders of the “create fantastical scenarios where it is ok/justifiable to hit a woman”? That’s just f#ckin’ degenerate mentality…seriously you dudes have some women issues.
And LOL @ MTB – “OK, so you are biased and unreasonable. I won’t discuss with you any more.”
Yes – Mark is the unreasonable one, not worthwhile having a conversation with. I’d say someone that has some real life experience with the situation might actually be able to impart a little more wisdom and gravity to the situation than someone that hasn’t apparently had healthy interactions with too many women as it appears they’re too busy trying to come up with convoluted scenarios to justifiably assault them. (e.g. “She’s a crazy/slutty porn-star!”)
So whats your issue, Gaijin?
Do I have to repeat my entire conversation with bluekillerrose?
“In fact, to quote myself, “Its LIKELY that (Tito) beat up an unarmed woman”, and “its never ok to hit a woman who poses no threat, which I would say is 99% of UNARMED confrontations between a man and a woman”.
If Tito did indeed beat up a woman who posed no imminent threat to him, by all means toss him in jail and throw away the key. However, I feel very strongly against the automatic crucifixion of a man who has been ACCUSED, but not yet PROVEN to be guilty.”
I charge you to produce a single thing I said in this thread to suggest that Jenna deserved it, or anything other than the fact that there ARE potential scenarios where Tito is not guilty, and therefore we should wait until we get to know the facts?
This entire argument started because Mark said “Its never ok to hit a woman.” Even though most people would agree that striking in self defense under threat of death is acceptable, the argument continued because Mark continued to spin that it is impossible for a woman to ever be a threat to a man. Which is a stupid, insane argument.
And you’re too worked-up to realize I was talking about in the context of your typical domestic dispute. You start pulling up “Oh yeah, well what if she had an AK-47 in his mouth? What if she’s a suicide bomber? What if it’s a tranny?” Come on.
You were the worked up one, Mark. I have outright said multiple times that its likely that Tito is guilty, that he probably beat up an unarmed woman, and so forth. You were the one unable to admit that maybe, just maybe, we shouldn’t tar Tito without knowing the facts.
If you could just admit that now, we’d have no argument. But I expect you want to continue to condemn Tito.
I’m sorry that your family member went through something so terrible. But please understand that her situation does not represent every situation out there.
Come to think of it, I don’t even give a shit if you condemn Tito. Its your refusal to even CONSIDER the possibility that he’s innocent, to the point of yelling at anybody who brings up the possibility, that is so repugnant. I’m extremely glad that people like you do not run the judicial system.
Jesus christ man you’re getting slaughtered for stuff you didn’t even say.
Also to the moderators, how is all that crap allowable. I mean yea 45 is an idiot and the scenarios he tries to creat are unreasonable, but what the hell did MTB say that was so appalling. You guys clearly have a bias towards certain people on this site.
To everyone who wants a real life situation where the poor womanwas in the wrong I’ll give you one:
I was in the military and I had a friend ( we’ll call him Smith ) who was married. We got home from deployment, and it was found out that she had been cheating on him. In fact she had the guy living in his house with his two children. He decided to brake up with her. Get a divorce, and take custody of the kids. They were still in the same house for a week while he waiting for her to go back home. On a night in that week she got drunk tried to get back with him, and he ended up having to force her off of him. They got into an argument, and the police were called. When the police showed up she claimed he hit her. He was taken into custody, and was charged. While he was in Jail she epmtied they’re bank account, and moved with the kids back to Maine ( From Ft. Benning GA ). The last I heard he still hasn’t gotten the children back, and he could never get any of the money back( a little over 20 grand ).
This is not the first situation I have heard like this, and it’s more prevalent than people think. When cops arrive on site for a disturbance somebody has to go to Jail, and it’s usually the guy.
Now if you want to crush me do it. As said earlier this very well might not be the situation, but it happens more than people think.
Notice I never said Tito was GUILTY of anything…there was and isn’t enough evidence to make any type of informed opinion on the topic.
I was referring to the ridiculous “25% of women are liars” (I knew it was going to be some horseshit study – and low-and-behold it’s a fucking biased “Fox News” editorial piece, that 45 of course totally misrepresented to justify his statement), Jenna is a crazy woman/has mental issues/is a porn star so…/probably provoked him and the over-the-top “what if” she pointed a bazooka at his nuts justifications for hitting a woman.
I agree with you that Tito doesn’t deserve people pre-judging him based on TMZ’s reporting – and we shouldn’t be ready to automatically crucify him.
It was the almost immediate anti-woman brigade that was really getting my dander up.
Then please, state where I posted anything misogynistic.
Otherwise, for painting me with that brush, blow it out your ear.
You’re right – I somehow managed to group something 45 had said with what you had said, in the mish mash of “what if she’s running at you with a knife all hopped up on goofballs?” and “women are crazy lying scumballs, who need to get tossed around when they lose their temper”.
I apologize for blasting you, although I don’t really get why you seemed to be so intent on creating scenarios where you could find a consensus that it’s ok to hit a woman.
Yes, you got me. Guilty as charged. I am also unreasonable for making a Black Belt Magazine joke that flew over edub’s head.
It’s true, I don’t live in the real world. You know, the real world where 98 pound women are threatening, you can cast judgment on women being crazy because of her former occupation, and a quarter of rapes are all lies (love to see the source of that one. Mike Tyson?)
Yep, the real world. Find out what happens when people stop being polite and start getting real.
Yeah, you’re right. I forgot to include the situations like if you were dating Aileen Wuornos, if a woman has access to nukes, birthday spankings, or when women turn into she-wolves on their periods like that one Megan Fox movie. You’re right.
Dear Mark,
Fuck you in your ear.
Sincerely,
Reason
Funny its a joke when you get called on it. “Haven’t you ever taken a self defense class?”
Man you have some great points and funny posts, but really this was just idiotic.
Having a family member abused is nothing to be messed with though. Sorry you had to go thru that.
Jenna Jameson said Tito “lash out at me”…. He didn’t hit her…. If he did, she would have said so.
Like I said above… None of this has the signs of true domestic abuse…. She is a f#cking drama queen who gives real domestic abuse victims a bad name.
I was talking about the initial reports, which were she had bruises and he was taken into custody. Put two and two together. Then it devolved way past the Tito-Jenna situation into a bunch of hypothetical “what if’s” and misogynistic venting from various people.
I really do hope he didn’t do it. Beyond all the BS for the cameras and his UFC 108 post-fight antics Tito seems like a good guy even though I’m not a fan of him. And I don’t dislike Jenna, having read some of her autobiography she has come through a lot in her life. And certainly I don’t want MMA opponents to hold his alleged actions up as a reason all fighters are scumbags.
Yelling? More like bemused, sometimes shocked awe at the absurdity of it all. You’re the one who said you’re done typing to me over the interwebs and have continued to do so for quite some time. Hmm.
*shrug* I stopped, and you chased me to another conversation, and I got drawn back in. Whoops.
If you can point out anything I said that is actually misogynistic, feel free. I’ll cheerfully apologize.
Can we agree that Tito is probably guilty, but its possible that there were extenuating circumstances, or that the severity was much less than implied?
If you’re upset about implying Jenna did anything to deserve it, go chase 45 around some more. Thats his view, not mine.
You’re right. You certainly didn’t say anything as batshit crazy as David M comparing domestic violence to a larger guy fighting a smaller guy or all of 45’s nuggets of knowledge. We’ll agree to disagree and move on.
To topics like where do we even begin on all the crazy shit 45 Huddle, the king of compassion has said today. 🙂
I’m patiently waiting for the facts to come out before I make an opinion. You’re a fool if you drew a line in the sand and already picked a side. Something as serious as this (for both sides really) shouldn’t be judged without knowing all the details.
Absolutely true.
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2010/04/26/court-records-tito-ortiz-previously-jailed-battery-causing-bodily-injury/
That makes the current charge look much worse.
Odds are he’s fucked.
>> Women are known liars with studies to prove it. Not
>> just my opinion.
45 Huddle, never before in your life have you been SO full of shit on any topic.
Yeah, I now realize he’s not a gimmick poster. He’s just nuts.
And what study is this? From the the My Girlfriend Cheated On Me Quarterly publication?
Haha. The MGCOMQ coming to newstands near you.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html
Gimmick posters don’t bring the facts….
This was the first article I found when I did a quick search on Google for it the study….
What I said was legit….
Overturned rape cases are mostly women who misidentified their attacker because they were beaten unconscious or drugged and were wrong identifying their rapist(s) but were still raped, like, for example, the Central Park Jogger case in the 80s. They weren’t out to get somebody in legal trouble like the Duke Lacrosse team incident. You pulled an opinion piece from Fox News from a writer who gave all the credit to the “25% of rapes are lies” to the Innocence Project, who deal with legitimate rapes with legitimate evidence of a rape happening and she even discredited the real “lots of rapes are lies” studies in later paragraphs.
You are giving those females far too much credit….
1 in 4 is so high that it can’t just all be mistaken identity… No matter how much the author tries to justify it.
The are deceiving because they just want somebody to pay…. Not because they care about the truth.
There are a lot of normal good women out there. Jenna Jameson is not one of them.
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2010/04/exclusive-interview-jenna-jameson-changes-mind-trying-work-things-out
Jenna is already talking about working it out “for the sake of the kids”.
Hmmmm… I wonder why…. Perhaps she knows he story won’t hold up….
Seriously man…. Don’t be so stupid. This was obviously Jenna being a drama queen. It had all the signs of it. From the lack of hitting…. To the lack of bruises…. Now she is already trying to get back with Tito….
TRUE domestic abuse is a serious issue and not to be taken lightly. As I have said multiple times here…. This was not really domestic abuse…. And every time a new piece of information comes out, it furthers my point.
And now you can both go F#ck yourselves. Stop talking sh!t about me when you don’t even do a quick google search to see if what I said was legit or not. I backed up my claim about the rape victims in a heartbeat. You might not agree with my viewpoint, but there is legit information to back it up.
I’ve said from the start that this doesn’t come across as serious domestic abuse…. And the more information that comes out, the more I’ve been shown to be right.
OK.
1. The choice of source is interesting. It’s the “i-feminists” page of the Fox News website. The section is wholly dedicated to attacking anyone or anything that shows there is still discrimination (and violence) against women. The author, Wendy McElroy, specializes in this garbage, try googling her and tell me if she’s a credible source.
2. The piece itself doesn’t even support your claims. You said studies prove “women are liars”. For one thing, the piece isn’t even about “lying”. It’s about misidentifying the suspect. Can you even read? Try again:
“the category of ‘false accusations’ does not distinguish between accusers who lie and those who are honestly mistaken. Nor does it indicate that a rape did not occur, merely that the specific accused is innocent.”
You are giving those females way too much benefit of the doubt…. As is the author…
Like I posted above…. Jenna is already looking to make things work with Tito Ortiz.
Just another example of a crazy woman…. Either she wasn’t abused like she said she was…. And she is crazy for making it up….. Or she was and she is still going back to him…. Which would still make her crazy.
Every time a new piece of information comes out, this becomes more comical. She’s a joke who give real women with real problems a bad name.
Update on Ortiz/Jameson situation
A few notes from TMZ.com and others:
*Jameson has filed a restraining order against Ortiz
*At last report Ortiz was still in a Huntington Beach, CA, jail and being held on $25,000 bond
*It is believed she claimed Ortiz threw her to the ground, not hit her
*She claimed Ortiz has never physically attacked her before, and “will never again”
*Dana White was quoted by TMZ.com saying that, “We’re going to be fair, but we could cut him.” He said he wanted to wait until police reports on the case are in. “Other than going on a killing spree, being accused of domestic violence is the worst thing you can have going for you,” he said.
*She was shopping today and was wearing a brace on her right arm and had her kids with her
Source: F4W
Pushing is very different then hitting.
This won’t result in any sort of jail time….
Luckily no one jumped to conclusions and ran to a website proclaiming that Tito beat up Jenna. Oh wait…
LOL aren’t you an adult?
That was the only news out at the time when I made a quick comment on it….
Your issues with women displayed today are astounding. Freud would be tickled pink to analyze you. I don’t even know where to start so I’ll just let comments like this speak for itself. You must lead a very sad life to get to the point of being so cynical about sexual assault victims of all things. But at least you’re stopping short of the “she was asking for it” defense, so that’s a plus.
There is no other man that I know of that is more for women’s equality…. And I live my life as an example of that.
But some women are crazy…. And those are the one’s I speak of here. Don’t confuse my lack of sympathy for the bat sh#t crazy women… With my true compassion for real victims and my strong believes that women deserve an equal chance compared to their male counterparts.
“I’m not one to promote violence against women… But you marry a porn star… You bring the drama into the relationship…. Stuff like happens.”
“Of course there are always those controlling men who just control and beat their wives for practically no reason. But that is the minority of cases. Most happen from an altercation…. And many times women are hardly innocent bi-standards.”
“Women are known liars.”
“You are giving those females far too much credit….1 in 4 is so high that it can’t just all be mistaken identity… No matter how much the author tries to justify it. The are deceiving because they just want somebody to pay…. Not because they care about the truth.”
Yeah, you’re a regular Gloria Steinem.
How long is this s–t going to be allowed to go on, with the same troll ruining the site? It’s not like only a few people realize he’s a troll. A lot of people have known it for a long time, and a lot of people have said it for a long time. And yet there he is, the same troll, still ruining the site with the same troll behavior, trying and often succeeding to get a rise out of people any way that he can.
It’s not like the ridiculous comments designed to get a rise out of people in this one specific thread are the only example of it. It’s not like this thread even represents 1/10th of it. It’s ridiculous that it has been allowed to go on for this long.
Top definition of “troll” on urbandictionary.com:
“One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”
Having a little fun, but hardly a troll.
People wanted Tito Ortiz’s head on a platter despite all evidence pointing towards Jenna Jameson being the crazy one. But somehow it is taboo to make fun of a woman crying domestic violence when it’s obvious she is full of it….
1) Jenna has no bruises on her.
2) Jenna is a known Drama Queen
3) Jenna is now unwilling to move foward and wants to make things better.
4) And now Tito Ortiz is coming forward saying she has a Oxycontin addiction which fueled this entire thing.
So where is my trolling? Just because you disagree with me, doesn’t make me a troll. The more facts that come out on this case, the more we all know Tito Ortiz was the real victim here. Like I said above, domestic abuse a is a serious thing for women. This is not one of those times. Jenna Jameson is a wack job who needs medical help.
Just because a woman cries for help, doesn’t mean the guy is the villian. Don’t be stupid. I know you like to hate on anything UFC…. And Ortiz is a UFC fighter…. So it makes sense that you would attack me for taking his side…. But the facts speak for themself….. Ortiz is not the guy at fault here….
I think relative few people called for Ortiz’s head on a platter (at least from what I read on FO) or tried to make him the villain and Jenna the helpless victim.
People took offence to certain people’s caveman mentality *cough* and ridiculously misogynystic ravings.
Exactly. The discussion started about Tito, I said it was wrong in general, outside of Tito Ortiz, to hit women, and then some people wanted to play “well, what about if a woman does this?” and others used it as an excuse to claim it’s not as bad if a woman insults you or threatens your safety by way of girly slaps. So really the topic wasn’t about Tito really until fairly recently.
I rarely read comments anymore on this site due to said trolls. If I wanted that I would just go to Sherdog. Free speech, free speech, for the dumb, for the dumb. This site was the last frontier for brilliant thoughts and discussion but after being overran with the likes of trolls, I can put it to rest. Other than that, keep up the good work Zach.
From TMZ: ito Ortiz and his attorney claim Jenna Jameson is addicted to Oxycontin — and they say that’s what led to the alleged incident that got Tito busted for felony domestic violence.
Ortiz dropped that bombshell during a news conference moments ago at a restaurant in North Hollywood.
Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/26/tito-ortiz-jenna-jameson-news-conference-oxycontin-felony-domestic-violence/#ixzz0mHApo94s
I would hope everyone would have learned already to keep their mouths shut about a topic as sensitive as this one until all the facts are in.