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Manny Pacquiao breaks Oscar De La Hoya’s fighting spirit and will
By Zach Arnold | December 6, 2008
Freddie Roach won’t have to give up his cut of his share of the money from Manny Pacquiao, as Mr. Roach correctly predicted that Oscar De La Hoya would fight old against Manny Pacquiao. He did. Pacquiao won tonight’s fight after the 8th round by TKO. It was total domination.
Bob Arum is one happy man right now. Hatton vs. Pacquiao will either happen next year in the UK or in Dubai, depending on which boxing promoter you want to listen to at the moment.
Meanwhile, tonight’s undercard on the De La Hoya/Pacquiao show is getting ripped to shreds.
“He’s not The Golden Boy. He’s the black-and-blue boy right now.” — Teddy Atlas on Oscar De La Hoya, ESPN. “He did not use his height advantage. He didn’t even use his strength advantage. It didn’t look like De La Hoya was ready for his fight mentally, physically.”
“This fight chases him out the sport. He’s hurt the sport. Everybody looks for the De La Hoya fight. It’s like when you go to the movie theater and they show the same movie. It’s good that you get rid of him a little bit and you allow the public to see all this great talent. I think it’s now time for him to move.” — Not 100% word-for-word, but about as close as I could get while typing in real time.
(Using Teddy’s logic, if he was in pro-wrestling the 1980s he would have been complaining about Hulk Hogan being bad for business. After all, he wrestled generally the same formulaic match while drawing tons of cash at the box office.)
Atlas predicts that Mayweather will fight Pacquiao in ’09.
The Sweet Science has a full recap. Here are comments from Pacquiao’s mother about her son’s win.
‘Do you really think Americans will pay $55 to watch a 135lb Filipino destroy other 135lb fighters?‘
Topics: Boxing, Media, Zach Arnold | 52 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Too fast and ODLH didn’t have the reflexes.
One of the greats. Mexican killer. What a performance. I know DLH is 35 but Manny was brilliant. Absolute class. Oscar could not avoid that left hand all night long.
Could be Hatton next for Manny. Anyone think PBF could come back and fight Manny.
Undercard was weak but man I dont care. That main event was well worth it for me!!
Every single fight shown were complete white-washes. What are the odds? Unfortunately very good…
The only undercard fight on paper that looked somewhat competitive was Lopez-Medina and Medina ended up taking his paycheck pretty quickly, preferring not to get battered silly a few more rounds. And Manny gave Oscar perhaps a worse beating than Floyd did against Gatti. Manny will fight Hatton and (assuming he wins) Floyd in 2009. If Floyd doesn’t come back, he may fight Marquez a third time. Not really sure what big matchups there would be other than that (besides maybe Cotto; Margarito would not be a super draw fight of any sort and Margarito would be a bad matchup for him given his fighting style, size and strength).
Wow, what a performance. Pacquaio made it more of a speed mismatch than a size mismatch. Pacquaio’s strategy was very similar to his strategy in the David Diaz fight earlier this year, which was an equally one-sided beating.
Pacquiao’s performance tonight was one of the most masterful performances I have seen in combat sports in many years, especially given that just last year De la Hoya had a very competitive fight with Floyd Mayweather.
Also, if you saw the ESPN and ESPNews pre-fight coverage with Teddy Atlas on Friday and Saturday, it was very clear how much he personally hates De la Hoya. I’m not sure what his reasons are, but it must be something major between the two of them because he despises him and he could not have made that any more clear in his pre-fight commentaries (ie, “I think there’s something wrong with him emotionally!” or “I think there’s something wrong with him psychologically!” or “I think he’ll find some way to screw it up just like he always finds some way to screw everything up!”).
I am going to find it very amusing if the very same people in the mainstream media outlets and on message boards who raved about the quick and decisive finishes on the UFC 91 card proceed to condemn the quick and decisive finishes on the boxing event. Of course, the big difference is that the UFC filled all of the time with prelim fights instead of the announcers talking.
Personally, I don’t think it’s anything that anyone should be raving about whether it’s MMA or boxing.
It will just be interesting to see if the principle of swooning about a high number of quick and decisive finishes is consistent. Somehow, I’m thinking it won’t be.
I think Luke Thomas’s opinion on the card is irrelevant, the guys site covers MMA not boxing so that reflects his basis for judgement. I’d much rather have sloppy undercard squash matches finish quickly and explosively and see Lampley and crew filibuster then have dull dragged out matches. Nobody considers or cares about undercard fights when purchasing a boxing PPV and usually end up with a slew of shitty decisions, anytime a fight ends decisively it is better then a decision.
Everybody knows boxing puts nobodies on undercards, so no point trying to dwell on such a thing.
Great main event, very very satisfying to watch. This offers the flip side argument of the whole size debate now how everyone complains about Brock, Semmy, or Oscar beign too large for their competition. Maybe the first two but in other instances beign the smaller faster man equals death to your foe.
Apples and oranges. Both can be incredibly boring if are drawn out decisions but boxing definitely has more of a snore factor, unless of course two guys wind up dry humping each other on the ground.
A finish is always the best, it’s the fact UFC consecutively calls their cards biggest of all time and stuffed with the best fighters, boxing doesn’t, they advertise the main and dont get as pretentious as UFC.
I don’t think they are really complaining about quick finishes but rather the fact that the televised undercard were (pretty much) all on paper complete mismatches that weren’t worthy of being packaged on PPV. Of course, with a big drawing card like Oscar, it doesn’t really matter who is on the undercard because they are all watching to see him fight.
In terms of business, it’s a smart idea to have a few low cost fights if the main event anchor is big enough a draw to pull in the viewers. It’s when you get to lower to mid drawing cards (like the recent Jones-Calzaghe card) where an argument can be made to splurge a bit more on at least a semi-main that will attract some more viewer interest, but even in cases like that you are likely trying to pull in from the hardcore Boxing base rather than the casual fans that go watch an Oscar fight.
Wow.
Talk about going out UGLY!
Not only did Delahoya get battered one sidedly & go out with a whimper on his stool, but he left a horrid taste in all the PPV customer’s mouths by offering perhaps the all time WORST undercard for any major PPV event. E
Ever.
And that’s saying something given the long history of weak undercards that Golden Boy & Pac-Man’s promoter Arum have established over the years.
But, the stench of this one is going to linger long & hard. And, when combined with the uncompetitive nature of the main event in which a softened up by the VERY good life, multi-MULTI-millionare businessman named Oscar Delahoya showed up in the ring instead of the semi-retired fighter by the same name only to serve as Manny’s heavybag for eight rounds, I think there are going to be legions of VERY unhappy fans who shelled out $55 to bear witness to this travesty.
Sure, the die hard Pac fans won’t complain too much because of their elation over the result, but that still leaves many, many boxing fans & casual fans who will remember this & be quite reluctant to spend that sort of money on a boxing PPV again any time soon. ESPECIALLY in this economy.
Oscar did a lot of damage to his legacy tonight both as a fighter & as a promoter.
Jim,
Funny you mention about weak cards being promoted by Bob Arum. Yes you are VERY correct for the most part. But Bob Arum also has those independently done boxing ppvs that are usually VERY entertaining and have strong under cards. Like the first one he did with Manny Pacquaio vs. Jorge Solis as the main event, and Jorge Arce under that fight. it was a tremendous event (so I have heard at least). But. the flip side is that he usually puts on boxing ppvs with Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. on the main event. Oh well, I guess you gotta take the bad with the good…
Thank god I didn’t pay for that. I’d rather watch EliteXC’s 1st show on endless loop than see DelaHoya fight again. For that matter, I am so over boxing. Out of probably 30 bars in my town I found one playing it. Most of them would have had a UFC event. I’m not fighting it anymore, MMA only for me….Sorry Arum/King fleece someone else from now on.
That was incredible. Excllent matchup. I predicted Manny would win, but I was surprised what a one sided beating it was. DLH was never in the fight. Manny had it wrapped up in round one. DLH looked like a guy fighitn a souhtpaw for the first time. Continuusly catching 2’s flush to the face.
No question Manny is pound for pound the best in the world. Say what you will about DLH being washed up. Manny waxed his ass. I’ve stated several times on this site that I don’t believe in “fighter math” (i.e. figter A beat fighter B and fighter B beat fighters C so Fighter A would beat Fighter C). That said, Manny demolished Oscar. I thought Oscar beat Floyd (the judges gave Floyd a split) and Hopkins lulled Oscar into opening up and being vulnerable for a liver shot. DLH though he only fights once a year or so has been competive with the top guys out there, until tonight.
Manny will crush Hatton. Hatton moves straight forward just like Oscar. You can’t fight Manny like that. Manny is as fast if not fsster than Floyd. I think Manny stops Hatton inside 6 rounds. Also tonights performance makes Manny vs Floyd a $20m fight for both guys and gets Floyd back in the ring.
The two fights I’d watch coming out of this are Manny vs Floyd and Oscar vs Hatton (which would be a war between 2 proud but flawed champions).
“Do you really think Americans will pay $55 to watch a 135lb Filipino destroy other 135lb fighters?”
The whining over at BloodyElbow.com is simply hilarious. They all sound like a bunch of 13-34 year old whiny white boys, who are clueless about boxing.
Manny is a phenomenal fighter, who continues to prove his naysayers wrong. Sure, he beat an older version of De La Hoya. But the “youth vs age” argument, especially in the fight game has been around since the beginning of time. If Manny was an American white guy who resembles Lidell or Couture, I am pretty sure the white masses will praise him as the next Captain America for Boxing.
I don’t want to sound blunt but Boxing really needs to rally behind an AMERICAN WHITE HOPE to bring back the 18 to 34 white male demographic that the UFC has in their grasp. A demographics that has grown the UFC to phenomenal heights.
For every Rashad Evans (Black Man or Minority) the UFC Promotes, you’ll find 3 to 4 Chuck Lidell’s, Randy Gouture’s or some MMA White Hope to attract their white fan base.
The UFC is not stupid. They know where they’re specific demographic money maker lies. The UFC fanbase want to rally behind a personality or fight they can easily relate with. And I’ll tell you one thing, White fans can easily cheer for Mr. White America “Couture” than some perceived blackman or thug, like Rashad Evans. Like or not, race & nationalistic pride will always play a factor in the fight game. This is why the UFC has done so well. They know who’s watching and buying most of their PPV’s. And I’ll tell you one thing, it was not the minorities who purchase the outstanding De La Hoya and PacMan fight last night.
Would love to see Pac versus Floyd. Pacman was pure symphony in there. DLH looked angry, stubborn, and out of his class.
The best fight boxing can make is Manny vs. Paul Williams.
Golden Boy…. Make It Happen!!!
If Mayweather doesn’t return, I see this as the last of the major PPV Buys for a while. Manny doesn’t have tons of crossover appeal like Oscar or Floyd did. His PPV’s will still get solid buyrates, but nothing at huge levels.
After seeing Manny Pacman’s ring generalmanship and working his speed, those hands, etc. I can’t understand why most MMA fans can’t see any redeeming value in boxing. Seeing Manny Pacman work his magic in a one-sided match even is a lot more fulfilling than seeing two MMA fighters put out sloppy C-level kickboxing. Obviously I would have preferred to see a more competitive boxing match. And if Pacman vs Hatton happens at 140, we will see just that.
I didn’t expect De La Hoya to lose but that’s because I expected him to come into the fight weighing 160. When I saw that De La Hoya weighed 147 unofficially to Pacman’s 148 1/2, I knew that he was going to get served. Golden Boy shouldn’t have lost all that weight. He should have lost only a bit of weight during training, then dehydrate himself to 147 before putting all that water weight back to 155-160. He’s too old and too slow but if he at least came in 155-160, he would have had his size at least. Then he could have the chance to bully Pacman around. But coming into this fight, he didn’t have the size. He had nothing on Pacman. Totally outmatched.
Lester,
While I certainly “get” what you’re trying to say, I do have some issues with some of what you said.
Regarding the perceived whining about last night’s card, so far no one that I’m aware of has complained about the outcome of the contest or the fact that Manny won ( other than those who would’ve liked to have seen a more competitive fight for their $$$ ). Infact, the vast majority are thrilled with Pac-Man’s victory.
The issue with the PPV was the near vomit inducing nature of the undercard & the arrogant way in which is was presented to us.
It was like going into a restaurant for a steak dinner & being served stale bread, a salad of wilted lettuce & some generic boxed mac & cheese as side dishes because the staff figured you were paying for the steak & it didn’t matter what they served you along side it.
It’s simply unacceptable.
And, as far as boxing’ supposed lack of “white hopes”, there are probably more white fighters at the top level & white stars now than at any other time since the forties or fifties.
Think about it, the Klitschkos & Valuev/Changaev rule the heavyweight class, then there’s Calzaghe, Pavlik, Hatton & so on & so forth on down the line.
As for the UFC fan’s perception of it’s black fighters such as Rashad Evans as “thugs”, I give them more credit than that. Sure, the majority of the UFC’s top attractions are white, but the sport of MMA has plenty of African-American stars. With more to come I’m sure.
LOL @ Huddle having an online orgasm at what he sees as boxing’s “last big ppv”.
Hatton vs. Pac will draw huge buys, Pac vs. PBF will also draw big buys.
Sure it won’t draw Anderson Silva levels of buyrates (/sarcasm) but I’m sure they’ll manage to get by somehow.
Jim,
You’re missing a big point in your thoughts on “white hopes”. They need to be American white hopes, of which Pavlik is the only one. I’m pretty sure the “Great White Hope” was *mainly* applicable to the heavyweight division…and while the Eastern Europeans are ruling with an iron-fist, you’re unlikely to find too many US boxing fans who care.
Yeah, “great white hope” usually means “great White American hope.” Just because the European champions may be white, doesn’t mean that white Americans really care about them. They have been isolated from Europe for so long that they don’t really care about Europe, Europeans or what goes on there.
“After seeing Manny Pacman’s ring generalmanship and working his speed, those hands, etc. I can’t understand why most MMA fans can’t see any redeeming value in boxing.”
I like to see fights finished. Most UFC Title Fights end with a finish. Watching a guy with a lot of speed, but not enough power to rock ODLH even once during the fight is kind of boring. Kind of like how watching Fabiano vs. Tamura for nearly 15 minutes almost put me to sleep. Both fights show great technique, but without the real sense of danger throughout either of the fights, it becomes very boring to watch.
The Gaijin,
You have bashed my views on boxing previously as well. Dave Meltzer ran a very good article which has actually repeated many of the things I have been saying.
http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=dm-boxmma120708&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
I find it funny that of the only two money fights you can speak of in boxing, one of them is with a retired fighter. That alone shows how bad boxing is doing right now.
Anderson Silva might only get 300,000 PPV Buys, but he did it with a nobody in the main event. RJJ & Hopkins couldn’t get close to that number with fights that were supposed to be larger in scale.
The UFC might never do a Tyson or ODLH number for a long time. But they have consistantly good PPV numbers. And for overall health, I would rather take a strong 350,000 PPV average (minus to UK shows), then have one huge PPV a year, with the rest hurting to get solid numbers. And honestly, that is the future of boxing (looking at it as the glass being half full).
Huddle: It’s to be expected that you’ll see less knockouts in boxing. In a sport like boxing where they pit skilled world-class competitors against one another, it becomes difficult to churn out knockouts. It’s not like in MMA where most fighters don’t even have a rudimentary understanding of striking defense. Thus exposing their chins for a flash KO. The skill level of striking in MMA is quite poor compared to professional boxing, muay thai or even K-1. MMA’s strong suit has always been grappling. Wrestling and Jiu-jitsu. Chances are if you have real potential as a boxer (not a wash-out like Chris Lytle, Marcus Davis or Alessio Sakara), you’d stick with pro boxing. If you had real potential in pro muay thai, you’d probably be doing muay thai or K-1. MMA gets high-class grapplers but they usually get the left overs from the striking arts.
Also weight plays a factor. You’re going to see more KOs at higher weight classes than in the lower weight classes and this is true for both boxing and MMA.
a few more points:
Boxing has been established in American Culture for 100 years. So they have the chance of pulling fans from all age groups, making higher PPV numbers easier to obtain.
The UFC has already gotten 800,000 and 1 Million PPV Buys, and have done so without the 45+ age demographic. That is amazing. Wait 15 years when the UFC can pull in buys from all age demographics…. They will be dominating boxing even more then they are now.
1 Big PPV does not make a sport. The UFC kills boxing with consistancy, better cards, and more awareness with fans who will be around in 20 years. That is why the signs are all there of boxing dying (at least in America).
PBF is about as retired as a pro wrestler is “retired”. And he’s most certainly far less “retired” than Randy Couture in his various incarnations of “retirement”.
The fact that Hopkins and RJJ didn’t “draw” means nothing. RJJ has been shot as a legitimate fighter in the eyes of fans since he was smoked out at LHW against Tarver and Johnson and fighting shows in Idaho and Mississippi prior to this. Granted he was fighting a great fighter, but one with little fanbase or recognition because he’s fought once in the US. And as hall of fame a boxer as Hopkins is, he’s never been a PPV draw because he’s the most boring/mugging boxer in the history of boxing and people have been burned buying his crap fights long ago.
As for Meltzer as your QED on this, that’s cute :). Meltzer is a pro wrestling die-hard, who made the transition to mma to keep himself relevant. And while he’s a knowledgeable mma guy, he knows NOTHING about boxing. Not to mention he’s firmly in the UFC’s back pocket so he can keep his press pass and get all the scoops (“He currently covers the sport [of mma] for Yahoo! Sports, a UFC partner.”). The article is nothing but a press piece for the UFC, with multiple one-sided negative quotes from Mr. White.
“In a sport like boxing where they pit skilled world-class competitors against one another, it becomes difficult to churn out knockouts.”
It has nothing to do with the world class abilities. It is the size of gloves. It makes KO’s much less likely. It is completely unrealistic to see a fighter take 50 head shots from a world class puncher, and not be dazzed even once.
As for striking in MMA…. Your opinion on the poor striking in the sport will ALWAYS BE AROUND!!! The MMA fighters will never look as crisp as a boxer, kickboxer, or Muay Thia specialist. Why is this? Because they have to protect for the takedowns. As soon as takedowns come into the equation, the striking stances must change. A fighter can put the weight on their feet like they are trained to do in these purely striking sports. And therefore we get striking that will both appear to be sloppy and actually be more sloppy. To me, that is REAL FIGHTING.
Remember this… A boxer can make multiple mistakes and still be on his feet. A MMA fighter only has to make one mistake and be KO’d. That changes how a fighter strikes drastically. If anything, boxing is an inaccurate portrait of what real striking is all about.
LOL.
Boxer’s chins vs. the chins of even the strongest chinned mma fighter is an absolute laughing matter.
The un-KO’able Mark Hunt [and his K-1 counterpart Ray Sefo] have been brutally KO’d in boxing by absolute no-names.
Sorry, only Sefo not Hunt.
I would expect every MMA fighter who competes in boxing to eventually get KO’d. The stances are just too different to be able to become world class at both.
45, compare Lyoto Machida, a guy who does have good striking defense for MMA, to all the C-level kickboxing bums like Chris Leben who rush in brawling with their chins out. Then tell me that sloppy striking in MMA is all about the difference in stance.
The talk about Manny being a nondraw is hilarious. He’s already drawn higher than a number of UFC’s stars like Anderson Silva, Rich Franklin, and BJ Penn. Furthermore, that there is no historical precedent for a Manny Pacquiao to be a big money fighter stateside is equally absurd. He’s a modern day Duran.
45,
What the fuck?!?! Stance changes? That is absolute bullshit and you know it! It’s a fact that many MMA fighters (especially in the USA) aren’t great strikers, and has nothing to do with stance changes. I understand that you mean that most boxers and kickboxers are upright and on the ball of their feet, and MMA fighters (and most grapplers) are usually crouched down to prepare for takedowns. That has NOTHING to do with quality of a fighter’s striking. So the reason why Chris Leben is a no-talent fuck who kind of hits hard is because he prepares for takedowns? Bullshit!
It is understood why most MMA fighters of today are mediocre strikers is because when you cross-train, and learn many different techniques from many different disciplines, you will not get any one great consistent style for the most part. The techniques are watered down. Unless you are a freak of nature like Fedor or Anderson Silva of course. But most MMA fighters start out with either freestyle wrestling or BJJ, and then learn some striking for MMA matches. Bruce Lee had a quote many decades ago. It went something like “I do not fear the man who knows ten thousand different kinds of kicks. I fear the man who does the same kick ten thousand times”. Make sense?
So the next time you see some C-level scrubs throwing haymakers and windmill-punches like there’s no tomorrow, you tell yourself it’s because of “stance changes”. Oh, and by the way? When you do a stance change, preparing for a takedown, you usually don’t worry about striking your opponent. You would usually worry about your opponent trying for a double leg takedown, and you worry about sprawling. Oh, and I should mention that I used to wrestle, and I currently do Judo, and I used to box (I will eventually get back into boxing)among other martial arts so I at least KIND OF know what I am talking about.
Thanks Chuck. I will also make sure I check out your show tomorrow on NBC… Since it sounds like you do everything.
I’m not saying that a guy like Leben is a good striker. I think anybody can tell the guy is a brawler with a lack of real talent.
The main point is that boxing fans always talk about MMA having inferior striking…. And my point is that this argument will ALWAYS be present. Even in 15 years as the sport progresses. When you put takedowns into the equation, the dynamics of striking automatically change. A lot of those “sweet science” moves just can’t be used in MMA. And even their foot stance is bad because it leaves their lead foot open to leg kicks throughout the entire fight. Muay Thai is really the best striking art for MMA.
And this entire point was started with me rebutting the fact that this “beautiful display” of boxing should be appreciated by even MMA fans. When really, this is just not the case. Boxing’s style is just not effective in a real fight… Or I should say, NOT AS effective as wrestling, Muay Thai, or even BJJ.
“Like or not, race & nationalistic pride will always play a factor in the fight game. This is why the UFC has done so well. They know who’s watching and buying most of their PPV’s. And I’ll tell you one thing, it was not the minorities who purchase the outstanding De La Hoya and PacMan fight last night.”
Ummm, for the youth, there is almost a reverse racism, where it is cooler to be black. And this concept of color mattering in MMA…. This is just not true. Those young fans are the Obama Generation…. Fans who see color and race as much less of a factor then their grandparents.
“Muay Thai is really the best striking art for MMA.”
Excuse me? Please explain how GSP and BJ have basically won and defended their titles using almost exclusively a jab? Hell even Lesnar set up that big right hand after a jab basically getting Couture to duck right into his overhand, the entire purpose of the jab.
And these guys don’t even know how to jab yet, so just imagine how effective it could be when properly applied.
Look at that Jamie Varner did to Razor Rob, basically a wrestler boxer vs muay thai and he wrecked his world with one twos, like what happens to most Muay Thai guys when they fight someone with a jab.
Currently the jab is the most effective, somewhat under utilized weapon in ALL of fighting, and that means if your brawling someone on the street corner or in the highest level of combative sports.
Will this fight be a big seller and/or generator of hype for boxing?
“The Jan. 24 world welterweight title fight between champion Antonio Margarito and Pomona’s “Sugar” Shane Mosley has been moved from Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas to Staples Center, fight officials said Thursday.”
http://www.latimes.com/sports/printedition/la-sp-mosley5-2008dec05,0,5638626.story
Fluyid, lets just say any Mexicans living in Cali (35% total population) who may have bought tickets to Affliction are either currently seeking a refund or trying to sell them to a freind.
This fight means alot more then Fedor vs Arlovski to all hispanic population and their adamant support of a true Mexican fighter. Hell even Tom Attencio is probably gonna watch Margarito over Fedor since he seems to have a little latin blood in him.
Terrible for Affliction, even I question wtf is going on over there.
Affliction, like any potential rival to the UFC, seems to be snake bit.
I think this will be a great fight. Moseley goes in to fight. He doesn’t look to tie a guy up repeatedly or to run. This should be a throwdown.
One thought I had regarding all this talk about undercards: I think it makes a difference that the UFC commentators really sell the undercard, while they almost seem like mild annoyances to the boxing commentators. I think that has an effect on most viewers.
In other words, I think most viewers feed off of the excitement and interest generated by the announce team. When Joe Rogan screams about how “SICK!” a wild-ass punch that KO’s an outmatched opponent is, most viewers don’t seem to mind that the fight was a mismatch. They instead rave about the winner’s “SICK!” skill and how he’ll someday contend for the title.
On the other hand, when the boxing announcers yawn their way through an equal level of mismatch on a boxing PPV, that same viewer comes away bored.
fluyid, you are correct this fight will be excellent, and honestly id probably rather watch it then Fedor, i hope the timing works out that we get to watch Margarito vs Mosley overlapping the undercard matchs and that both main events arent starting at 11pm est like boxing usually does.
As for the pretense in the UFC and MMA in general, its disgusting. Some may bag on Lampley and Merchant for shilling over “HBO house fighters” but i’ve never seen or heard anything as bad as what comes out of Dana, Joe, Goldy, or anyone associated with UFC. To them everything to do with UFC is superlative, like they’ve just seen it for the first time. The worst subjectivity on HBO would probably be Emmanuel Steward, but atleast he has hands on knowledge he shares. Something Rogan is very good in grappling, but terrible at everything else.
Look at the numbers Meltzer released last year. Pacman did 350,000 (in a strong economy sure). After beating De La Hoya, I wouldn’t be surprised if he could outdraw all but 3-4 UFC fighters (Lesnar, Liddell, Couture, Jackson maybe if you have a strong card like UFC 92.)
TOP N. AMERICAN BUY RATES, 2007*
• 1. Boxing: Oscar De La Hoya vs. Floyd Mayweather, May 5: 2,400,000
• 2. Boxing: Mayweather vs. Ricky Hatton, Dec. 8: 850,000
• 3. WWE: Wrestlemania, April 1: 760,000
• 4. UFC: Chuck Liddell vs. Quinton Jackson, May 26: 675,000
• 5. UFC: Tim Sylvia vs. Randy Couture, March 3: 540,000
• 6. UFC: Couture vs. Gabriel Gonzaga, Aug. 24: 520,000
• 7. UFC: Liddell vs. Keith Jardine, Sept. 22: 475,000
• 8. UFC: Tito Ortiz vs. Rashad Evans, July 7: 425,000
• 9. UFC: Anderson Silva vs. Travis Lutter, Feb. 2: 400,000
• 10. UFC: Georges St. Pierre vs. Matt Serra, April 7: 400,000
• 11. Boxing: Manny Pacquiao vs. Marco Antonio Barrera, Oct. 6: 350,000
• 12. WWE: SummerSlam, Aug. 26: 344,000
• 13. Boxing: Miguel Cotto vs. Shane Mosley, Nov. 10: 340,000
• 14. UFC: Anderson Silva vs. Rich Franklin, Oct. 20: 325,000
• 15. WWE: Royal Rumble, Jan. 28: 314,000
I don’t see any reason to purchase Affliction on PPV. The 5 reasons are:
1. I have a fighting fix the same night with HBO Boxing.
2. I have a MMA fix the next night with the WEC.
3. Josh Barnett vs. Gilbert Yvel. Not to mention that the rest of the undercard isn’t anything special.
4. UFC PPV the weekend before.
5. UFC PPV the weekend after. A stacked card I might add.
BBB,
GSP’s jab alone doesn’t win him fights. It’s the threat of the takedown. It is those awesome leg kicks. He is much more then just a jab. And one fight like Varner/McCullough doesn’t prove Muay Thai is a worthless art in MMA. Overall, their striking stance translates better to MMA. That is how it has been for Thiago Alves, Anderson Silva, and various other fighters.
Lastly, the jab is just not a boxing technique. It is most striking arts. However, when an MMA fighter throws the jab, he is not setting his feet like a boxer does. If he did, he would be taken down more often (minus GSP, who is a genetic freak and is nearly impossible to be taken down).
Big Bill Bob, they have the jab in Muay Thai, along with all the other punches. Your argument makes no sense. Are you categorizing every punch as “boxing”, despite the fighter’s background?
Margarito vs. Mosley is no reason to skip the Fedor vs. Arlovski fight. Both fights pit #1 vs #3 in the world. If you only want to buy one PPV for January, then you can make the case for UFC 94 > Affliction.
But if you are willing to buy 2, UFC 94 and Affliction are the clear choices. Both UFC 93 and Affliction undercards aren’t that great and Fedor vs. Arlovski > Franklin vs. Henderson. Besides after Freddie Roach was right about Pacman, maybe he’s right about Arlovski having a chance against Fedor. Should be a competitive fight. I’m pumped for Fedor vs. Arlovski. The true world heavyweight championship match.
Btw is Margarito vs. Mosley going to be for the Ring welterweight title? Considering that Margarito just beat Cotto, it should be.
be like water, my friend, be like water
“Big Bill Bob, they have the jab in Muay Thai, along with all the other punches. Your argument makes no sense. Are you categorizing every punch as “boxing”, despite the fighter’s background?”
Actually, something about Muay Thai that most either don’t know or ignore to know………most Muay Thai guys can’t punch worth for shit. Especially jab. There, I said it. I love Muay Thai, but most Muay Thai guys can’t punch worth for shit. And most Muay Thai guys usually neglect to low kick, well, that’s mostly because low kicks in Muay Thai matches don’t score with the judges. Just watch old Muay Thai matches (Youtube is your friend here) you will barely see punches nor low kicks.
“Thanks Chuck. I will also make sure I check out your show tomorrow on NBC… Since it sounds like you do everything.”
I will be awaiting your feedback!
I see what you are saying about guys bracing for takedowns, but the fact is that the main reason most MMA fighters can’t strike well is because they weren’t properly trained for it. I agree that it is not usually a good idea to be upright and try to out-jab your opponent, especially if he is a good grappler. But most fighters throw looping round houses and windmills. It isn’t an issue of takedowns here. It is an issue of crappy or nonexistent training of striking. This goes beyond just boxing skills. Hey, Tim Sylvia usually gets away with standing up and just jabbing his opponents face off, and that fucker is 6’8″! He has long legs that are just BEGGING to be double legged.
I’m sure fifteen years down the road many MMA fighters will have striking almost on par with many boxers and kickboxers of all styles, but until then, the issue stands.
“be like water, my friend, be like water”
Hell yeah! Preach it, my brother, PREACH IT!
Bruce Lee may be overrated, but God DAMN he knew his shit! For those who don’t understand what Steve said, it means you should adapt and be flexible. Water changes form when it splashes against the rocks on a beach. it changes form when there is a tsunami. It changes with the calm after the storm. And it can be as hard as a rock (ice).
Chuck: Exactly my point chuck. It’s not about the stance that makes MMA striking sloppy. It’s that most of these guys are throwing these crazy haymakers and wild looping punches. This kind of sloppy brawling will leave you more vulnerable in an MMA fight than technically sound boxing or Muay Thai. If more guys fought smart like Lyoto Machida, then you could make a case about stance.
I think seeing Andrei Arlovski work with Freddie Roach is good for the evolution of the sport. MMA has lots of guys with world-class wrestling and killer jits but we need to see muay thai and especially boxing reach another level. Roach seems to believe that Arlovski could be a Top 10 Heavyweight boxer. I doubt it happens though. But it would be awesome if an MMA fighter could cross over to pro boxing and succeed.
Note: I at first thought Roach was saying Arlovski could be a heavyweight boxing champ when he said he could be a top heavyweight boxer but after looking at a radio interview with Roach, it turns out that Freddie meant that he could be top 10, not champ. Still a stretch though. Arlovski has the speed and athleticism but he’ll be 30 by the time he makes his pro boxing debut. Too late for him to be a ranked heavyweight boxer one day.
Dave2;
Good points about Roach and Arlovski. But remember, Roach was one of the VERY few guys that predicted correctly that Pacquiao would be way too fast for de La Hoya, and he was very correct. But Alrovski is a little too old to get into boxing now. Then again, Antonio Tarver was 29 when he made his pro debut, and he is a top ten guy at light heavyweight. And Ray Mercer was a month shy of his 28th birthday when he turned pro. And Arlovski has fighting experience and has proven to have good hand skills. So who knows for sure…
Roach is a smart man. But if you were to tell me that De La Hoya was going go into that fight weighing only 147 pounds instead of 160, which is what happened, I would have picked Pacman to win in a heart beat myself. I don’t understand why everyone is saying “Pacman beat the bigger man.” Pacman weighed in at 148 1/2 unofficially to DLH’s 147. If DLH was at 160 in the ring, he’d have more power and could bully Pacman. The only thing DLH had on Pacman was the height but Pacman easily neutralized that and I didn’t think height would be an issue anyway.
The Tarver and Mercer cases don’t really prove that you can get into boxing late and succeed. They got into pro boxing late but they had decorated amateur boxing careers before they went pro. They are both olympic medalists and Tarver has won Amateur and Golden Gloves championships.
Andrei Arlovski doesn’t have that kind of amateur boxing pedigree. He’s going straight into pro boxing as a 30 year old man. No way he’ll be top 10. But maybe Freddie knows something we don’t. Who knows. It certainly would be very odd and shocking if Arlovski found himself top 10 in Ring Magazine rankings one day.
IceMuncher somebody already answered you nicely for me, most Muay Thai practitioners can’t punch themselves out of a paper bag to save their life. In place of a jab most usually a teep/push kick is used to keep distance, or in the case of Kimbo use it to completely nullify their strike while delivering their own. And yes, the jab is synonymous with boxing because it is basically the main punch used and required, while muay thai offers eight striking points and focuses much more on them.
When you say that Antonio Margarito vs Shane Mosley is no comparison to AA vs Fedor you couldn’t be more wrong. You do realize that 147 pounds (welterweight) has been recognized as the marquee weight class in boxing for the past few years especially with the heavyweight drought? This fight is just as significant as Fedor vs AA with similar ramifications to see who is the best. I’d love to watch both on the same night and definitely want to see Fedor, but I consider what Margarito did in his last fight even more entertaining because he usually is apart real wars which really get you amped up, while Fedor is usually skillful domination rather then anything willful. I love when people face adversity and come back to succeed.
Mosley looked pretty bad in his last fight. To be honest, I think its a overrated matchup that exists solely because Mosley is a gutty fighter willing to seemingly take on anyone. However, unlike Affliction, it won’t be on PPV, and that increases my chances of watching it over Fedor/Arlovski (which I think is the best heavyweight fight possible right now) when the undercard for that show looks merely mediocre.
I actually didn’t say Fedor vs. Arlovski > Margarito vs. Mosley. I said this: “Margarito vs. Mosley is no reason to skip the Fedor vs. Arlovski fight. Both fights pit #1 vs #3 in the world. If you only want to buy one PPV for January, then you can make the case for UFC 94 > Affliction.”
I said that Margarito vs. Mosley was no reason to miss the Fedor vs. Arlovski fight. The reason being? Margarito vs. Mosley is free anyway. You can watch one live and record one or the other. I’m going to be watching both fights.