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Strikeforce promoter Scott Coker under media scrutiny over matchmaking
By Zach Arnold | May 3, 2010
This is a long article. Grab a cup of coffee and take your time. Read it in full.
This has been a rough year so far for Scott Coker in terms of matchmaking with Strikeforce. He’s taken a beating offline and online ranging from the likes of hardcore MMA fans to UFC President Dana White. Most of the heat directed at Mr. Coker has been about the CBS Nashville event on April 17th, which featured three title fights that on paper had a good chance of going the distance and they all ended up going the full five rounds each. An interpromotional feud between DREAM and Strikeforce ended up having no juice whatsoever and now DREAM finds itself in some trouble.
The spotlight and fallout from the main event featuring natural 170-pounder Jake Shields defending a Strikeforce 185-pound title against natural 205-pounder Dan Henderson fighting at 185 was the proverbial icing-on-the-cake. Going into the fight, it was well-known that Shields could possibly be on his way out of the promotion. So, naturally, he got booked in a main event slot on CBS. His opponent was Dan Henderson, the incoming hero from UFC who had taken out Michael Bisping — but that was nine months ago, a distant amount of time period in the mind of most casual fight fans. Strikeforce and Showtime invested serious money into bringing Dan Henderson into the fold. UFC President Dana White claimed in the media that he was happy that Strikeforce signed Dan Henderson because it meant that they would have to eat a big contract.
Along with eating that contract, the Strikeforce promotion ended up tasting Henderson’s defeat to Shields on CBS. The show drew a lousy rating and to top it all off, there was a melee afterwards between Mayhem Miller and the Cesar Gracie camp. The end result of that is that nobody involved in that fracas is getting booked anytime soon in Strikeforce — including Miller (for the promotion’s 6/16 Nokia Theater event in LA) and Diaz (for a late June booking in San Jose).
Instead of being grateful about being the Strikeforce champion and being booked on CBS, Shields showed up a week later sitting next to Dana White at Arco Arena in Sacramento for Zuffa’s non-branded (WEC) PPV. Shields had no respect or fear of Scott Coker at all in order to pull off that stunt while still under contract.
After getting burned on the strategy of booking the smaller Shields against the bigger Henderson, Scott Coker has doubled-down on the booking philosophy by putting another disgruntled Strikeforce fighter in a fight against a heavier opponent. Robbie Lawler, who fights for the H.I.T. Squad camp out of the St. Louis area with Matt Hughes, ends up going up in weight to fight Renato Babalu (going down in weight) at a catch-weight fight of 195 pounds for the Nokia Theater show. What is that about? Lawler had been disgruntled in the past with the way things were going with Strikeforce and Matt Hughes voiced some of those concerns publicly. The heat was supposedly squashed, but putting a sometimes-Welterweight but occasional Middleweight against a natural Light Heavyweight is not exactly the most favorable of conditions to put Robbie Lawler in. Will it backfire on Strikeforce?
Next, there’s the controversy about Brett Rogers, who lost to Fedor on CBS last October, getting a Strikeforce Heavyweight title shot against Alistair Overeem. Overeem, who is one of the aces of DREAM and one of the top stars of K-1, hasn’t fought for Strikeforce in a long time but is still the promotion’s champion. With DREAM facing trouble for their 5/29 Saitama Super Arena event, it’s not inconceivable that Overeem could get the call to that fight on that show just two weeks after fighting for Strikeforce in St. Louis against Rogers.
The debate over Rogers getting a Strikeforce title shot spilled over into a recent conference call that featured Scott Coker. From the conference call:
Press Questioner: “In the past cards it seemed like you weren’t holding back and you weren’t trying to groom anybody, that you were trying to put the toughest fighters against each other. With regards to Demoliton Man it seems like Brett Rogers there might be tougher opponents with regards to Mr. Randleman as well.”
Scott Coker: “So you’re saying that Alistair Overeem isn’t going to be a tough opponent for Brett Rogers?”
Press Questioner: “Nah, I’m saying does Brett Rogers really deserve to be in that cage with the Demolion Man?”
Scott Coker: “Yeah, absolutely. For Brett to go, how many people have lasted a round and a half with Fedor and you know I think it’s going to be a great fight. And all these fights, believe me, they all you know have been under scrutiny more inside our organization than anybody else and I think we’re going to have some amazing fights and I think you should probably make your decision after you see the fights.”
Press Questioner: “OK, sir, will do.”
Rarely do you hear Mr. Coker get testy, but he was certainly more on the defensive than I’ve ever heard him during any sort of interview.
Rogers, for his part, has been answering the tough questions from the media about why he’s getting a title shot against Alistair Overeem and why he has such natural disdain for K-1’s #2 heel (behind Badr Hari).
“I’m going to just let the fans know, this is not something that I just said, oh, all of a sudden I want to fight Alistair for the title,” exclaimed Rogers last March in an video interview for the MMA Die Hards site. “I’ve been calling him out before the Arlovski fight, OK? So, I mean, I took on Arlovski, fought Fedor you know, people kind of sleeping on that part, that little period right there. So this is nothing new, this is something has been going on for quite some time and I mean, like I said, he’s been holding the title for about a good two years, he went out East you know put on a plan over here, don’t want to come over here, I’m not understanding why… [pause] but, it is what it is, if he comes over here I’m going to knock him out.
“It’s just one of those matches that works well with me because I’m coming of a loss to Fedor Emelianenko last November but it’s one of those lesson-learned fights you know, it’s a tough fight, fun fight, but at the same time just a little disappointed in the outcome. Alistair, he’s just one of those guys that you know, kind of cocky, you know he has the title holding, the title he’s been holding for about a good two years, you know it’s about time to come out East and kind of rumble with the boys over here. I don’t know, I just I’m trying to prove the world that you know I am the Heavyweight that’s going to be there and going to maintain his status as far being one of the best.”
In comments made during an official Strikeforce interview, Rogers was a little bit softer in tone… but started dropping his hints about Overeem’s diet.
“Alistair Overeem, I give him credit, he’s been in the game for a long time, but it’s one of those situations where I’ve been trying to go after him for a while, the last year, so I hope he’s ready, I’m going to be ready. I wanted to fight him before I fought Arlovski because I know he was holding the belt, you know he’s been the belt holder for Strikeforce and he feels that he can go out of town, you know, to bulk up his pockets… and people still don’t know really of him, so I mean I’ve just been trying to get him over him so I can get that title so I can sit on top. As far as people saying I’m not ready for this, we’re just going to have to see on May 15th. It’s definitely going to be a different game.”
I give Brett Rogers some credit. He did put on a good showing against Fedor and he managed to surprise a lot of people in how long he went. That said, let’s not make him out here to be Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira when Nogueira and Fedor had some classic fights during their PRIDE days. Sure, comparing Brett Rogers to say Tim Sylvia is one thing, but not exactly Nogueira-level at the moment.
Rogers has been doing his best to trash talk Overeem and get under Overeem’s skin. Except, I don’t think dropping the Vitamin S bomb on Overeem is going to exactly do much to make him mad.
“There’s definitely some differences,” Rogers stated in an MMA Fighting interview a couple of weeks ago. “Just because he’s so, one of those cocky arrogant dudes that he feels that you know that he’s a God because of his appearance and you know if it wasn’t because of his Eastern diet I’m pretty sure his appearance wouldn’t look the same. So, it is what it is, I’m natural you know, natural-hearted, strong person and I mean we’re going to see who is going to win when it comes to May 15th.
“The key to defeating him is just out-working him, get him gassed and embarrass him and knock him out.
“I don’t understand how a Heavyweight can hold a title for you know two years and not defend it, you know, so that’s one of my frustrations with him and I’m just going to have to use that, use it against him when he comes over to the States on the 15th.”
In an amusing question, Rogers was asked the following and replied this way:
Question: “You know how MMA fans are, always looking for something to complain about, and when this fight against Alistair was first announced, they’re like, ‘Well, he just lost to Fedor, why’s he getting a title shot.’ How would you respond to that?”
Rogers: “Because I’ve been wanting this fight ever seen last May you know this is before the Arlovski fight and I’ve been calling him out, you know he’s been back and forth with words online and just never showed up, it’s always something, it was always some excuse, so you know I’m just pumped, I’m pumped now that I get the chance to take the title and hold it and prove to the world that I am the Strikeforce heavyweight champion.”
Back to the conference call that was alluded to up above… also on that conference call was one Kevin Randleman, the man who dropped Fedor right on his head only for Fedor to get back up and win the fight. Mr. Randleman came to Scott Coker’s defense when the press questioner asked Mr. Coker why Rogers should be in the ring with Overeem.
“Scott Coker has done one heck of a job at keeping his company pure. He’s stuck to his guns, he hasn’t let anyone influence into changing and he’s done his homework, he’s done his thing the whole time and that’s the beauty of fighting for a company like Strikeforce, you know, he’s letting the fighters fight each other and he’s had a lot of good 205 fighters. You got Gegard and Mo and you got Roger (Gracie), you’ve got myself (Kevin Randleman), you got Feijao, I mean I believe that the 205 weight class in Strikeforce is going to weed itself out eventually but there are a lot of great champions in there and I think that Roger Gracie can be a champion, I know I can be a champion and Feijao and Mo Lawal beat Gegard. I don’t believe that this is a conservative card. I believe from looking at it, it’s a phenomenal card with the guys that are fighting because everyone’s got a lot of talent and in the progression of our sport, everybody’s getting better and if you’re not practicing every aspect of the game it’s going to show when the cage closes.”
I don’t know if I’d say that Scott has kept the company’s matchmaking pure, especially when you can turn on the television every Thursday night on Fox Sports Net/Comcast Sportsnet and every Friday night on Telemundo to watch Bellator’s weekly tournament series where guys really are fighting each other based on who won tournament fights. Perhaps you can slight Strikeforce for booking Gina Carano against Cris Cyborg, but it’s hard to knock the promotion for doing that given that those two women are the most well-known in women’s MMA outside of die-hard MMA fans.
However, there is the case of Herschel Walker. He beat up an unknown named Greg Nagy last January in South Florida. It was a fight that had everyone buzzing for both the right and the wrong reasons. (It was also the same show that featured New York Jets football coach Rex Ryan flipping the bird to a heckler.) I guess by definitely you could say Mr. Walker is the kind of fighter you book for a “freak show” match, though I do wonder if he could beat Giant Silva. Walker is a unique case for Scott Coker, as he is an athlete in his mid-to-late 40s who is in excellent shape. However, not everyone is Randy Couture and in the case of Walker, you are one punch or one blow away from having a really bad situation on your hands with him.
In a recent interview with MMA Fighting, Walker indicated that he would come back for at least one more fight.
“I got to work a little bit even though I was still training but I you know I have a food company so I got back to doing that and I’m getting ready to get back into the gym to get serious about back into training again and get ready to see if I can do another one. Yes I will fight again, I hope to fight again. I’m doing the same thing that I did before, leaving it in Javier (Mendez) and Bob Cook and Dave Camarillo at AKA (American Kickboxing Academy) leaving it to their hands. I’m still young, I enjoy this, I’m still young so I’m still learning but I leave it to the trainers and all the fighters at the gym.”
The problem with booking Walker is that for as an amazing of a story as he is in terms of being so athletic at his age, he’s not a guy who can be a cornerstone of your heavyweight division. He’s not a guy who you can build around in the future. He’s more or less a special attraction. The problem for Strikeforce is that their “special attraction” has more star power than just about anyone else in the company.
Walker indicated in the MMA Fighting interview that he would probably fight towards the end of the year, meaning he may be good for one fight a year.
“It’s going to take place probably toward the end of the year. One thing that I want to do is I want to step up a little bit. I want to thank Greg (Nagy) for giving me an opportunity to fight. My next fight, which I want to step up a little bit more and if I’m going to do that I’m going to have to train a little bit longer. You got to take this seriously, it’s a serious sport, it’s very tough, it’s tough being a fighter and for myself I want to be able to step up so I’m going to have to train a little bit longer next time.
“One thing that I have to do is get back into the gym, I mean that’s the most important thing to get back into the gym and see if I can do it. I still say I can’t have pride thinking that I can do it. I did well my first fight by winning but I made a lot of mistakes, so the second fight I’m going to be able to get into the gym and really work hard and let them say whether I can fight again and if I can say what type of opponent I’m going to get.”
To his credit, Walker did receive a lot of positive reaction amongst general sports writers who looked at him and thought he was going to get slaughtered in the cage, even if he was put in the cage against a tomato can.
“Well, you know, I got a lot of positive things. You know you get some negative things from your true fight fans who say, ‘OH you got a longs way to go’ and that’s what I said when I first came into this sport, I got a long ways to go. This is a very serious sport and I think guys got to take it serious. My football fans, they absolutely cannot believe that I even do this and you know a lot of them want to get into it, that’s what so strange about it. They want to get into it and I said guys, if you want to do it, you have to get into a gym. I don’t care who you are, what grade of athlete you are, you got to get into the gym if you’re going to do this sport. This is a very tough sport, the guys that have been doing it have been doing it for a long time. You know they’re professionals and you know for my fellow partners that are fighters, they were happy that I did it. They said that I looked good for my first fight. They thought that I would be nervous and you know what’s strange about it, I said this is competition. I didn’t get into it as a job. I know this couldn’t be a job for me. It’s something that I wanted to compete at, you have to have fun at it, and that’s what I want to tell all the people out there, all the fighters. If you’re not having fun at this, don’t do it because it’s too serious, it’s too hard. If you’re not having fun, don’t do it. If you’re going to have fun and do it, that’s when you want to keep doing it.”
Before his fight with Greg Nagy, Herschel gave off the warning siren that he was fighting just for fun and that he had no intentions of quitting his food company. Herschel deserves everyone’s respect, but he’s not a guy that you can build your operation around. Unfortunately, Scott Coker doesn’t have the star power nor the depth to run as many cards as he is running and manage to prevent chaos from happening. In the case of Mr. Walker, he may one fight left in him or he may have five fights left in him. The problem is, nobody knows — including Herschel himself.
“Oh no there’s no doubt, fight by fight. You know as Dana (White), I’m going to go back to Dana… Dana says I’m an old man. I am an old man, but I can fight, because I haven’t seen yet Dana say ‘I want to challenge Herschel’ so that means I can fight a little bit but you know I take it fight by fight because what’s important is you know you got to keep integrity to this sport. I want to be able to compete at the highest level when I step into the cage, into the Octagon, I want to be able to compete at the highest level. I think when you get to the point where I can’t do it, I got to step away from it and you know I feel good, I think I can do it, but I still leave in my trainers at AKA’s hands that say Herschel whether you can do it or not. When I get into the gym I got Cain who I consider one of the best heavyweights in the business, if he’s not the best in the business, so he’s going to beat me up a little bit and he’ll be my measuring stick whether I can do it. You know I still got Swick and Thomson and all those guys, they’re my measuring stick so they will be the ones to tell me whether I can do it or not.”
When you look at the entirety of the booking problems that Strikeforce is facing, you have to ask yourself the following two questions:
- Do the Strikeforce title belts mean something in Mixed Martial Arts?
- Do you think Scott Coker has control over the matchmaking or do you think Showtime controls the matchmaking?
If you don’t think the title belts mean anything, then it’s hard to get worked up over a situation like the Alistair Overeem/Brett Rogers booking in St. Louis. If you think, like Dana White does, that Showtime and not Scott Coker runs the Strikeforce ship, then is it fair to criticize Coker and remark that he’s a regional promoter who can’t cut it in the big leagues? Unfortunately for Scott Coker, perception is reality and right now the perception is that Strikeforce is a promotion running too many shows in too many areas across the country and that the infrastructure isn’t there like it is in Las Vegas for the largely self-contained operations of Zuffa.
In the words of Bill Parcells, “you are what your record says you are,” and right now the record for Strikeforce indicates a struggling promotion that is trying to figure out exactly what their vision is for in competing in a marketplace dominated by UFC and Zuffa.
Topics: Media, MMA, StrikeForce, Zach Arnold | 20 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
In re: your comparison between “Buck” Rogers and Nog, the former did more damage in the 10 seconds of GnP he had against Fedor than Nog did in both fights against him. Those were one-sided beatdowns. Sure, Nog kept trying and never getting close to submissions, but the first fight was marked by Fedor breaking Nog’s orbital bone within 10 seconds of the fight starting, then pounding him to the point where the fight should have been stopped. The rematch was just Fedor throwing Nog down and making him stand up to get thrown down again. Nog never had Fedor in trouble in 40 minutes of fighting.
Coker is a cuckold; what more can you say about the guy? I feel bad for him. First the Shields fiasco, now Lawler is going to knock Babalu out, and his hw champion is probably going to find a way to weasel out of the fight. If by some miracle Overeem does actually fight and lose, it makes Strikeforce look retarded for having Buck Rogers get a title shot after getting KTFO by Fedor. Obviously it raises the quite pertinent question of where the fuck is Fedor? Strikeforce sans Fedor has no sizzle. I live in Nashville and wasn’t even compelled to buy a ticket to see their show sans Fedor.
If Strikeforce can’t get Fedor back, where is the hw division left? Is Werdum still fighting in Strikeforce? Who would get first crack at Buck? Herschel Walker?
When you look at the entirety of the booking problems that Strikeforce is facing, you have to ask yourself the following two questions:
Do the Strikeforce title belts mean something in Mixed Martial Arts?
No. They shouldn’t. The media should have destroyed them for having Fedor in a nontitle bout while Overeem wasn’t fighting for them, and should repeatedly note how worthless the other belts are and don’t.
Do you think Scott Coker has control over the matchmaking or do you think Showtime controls the matchmaking?
Showtime, in so much as they won’t tolerate spending big bucks on what Strikeforce was putting together before they came along. Those shows were horrendous one fight cards featuring club talent for the full undercard followed by an interesting headline match (unless it was a show at the Playboy Mansion, in which case it was 100% crap). We’re better off as fans with Strikeforce being told to provide an interesting product than if Strikeforce was simply handed a blank check and made more Bobby Southworth fights with it.
Spot on as regards the belts and the direction. I also agree with Alex Sean below in sentiment. OK Strikeforce is not the most sophisticated presentation and falls far short of the UFC, but they have indeed provided a few evenings of quality entertainment. Their stumbles are not as serious as is often made out to be on the internet.
I don’t understand how people can be upset about the title match. There are no better options, so Rogers is the best option by default. If they were going to strip Overeem they should have done it over a year ago, but even then I don’t think it was a realistic option because they let him go fight in Japan, I don’t believe he was signed for the whole time, and the belt was probably leverage in getting overeem back. People can question overeem’s credentials and proper ranking, but I think we can all agree that Coker should have been doing everything in his power to get him to fight for Strikeforce.
As for this title fight, who else should it be? Who are Strikeforce Heavyweights coming off of a win? Lashley? Walker? Werdum is out because they are holding out hope that they can get the Fedor/Werdum fight done this summer. The only other person to win a fight at HW on Strikeforce Card (not challengers) is King Mo. Now, it does look a little silly having someone who lost his last fight get a title shot, but Having a title fight and Overeem fighting is a much higher priority, and there isn’t a person who has won their last fight at HW more deserving than Rogers.
Excellent article, Zach. I did as you suggested and got myself a cup of coffee.
The Strikeforce belts mean absolutely nothing in MMA. About the equivalent of the NABF belts in boxing.
As Alan correctly points out it should be routinely noted how worthless the belts are and it isn’t reported like that. SF has been raised to a level of supposed importance by an activist MMA media that hates UFC and supports everything non-UFC. Strikeforce is a joke. They should be focusing on putting on good, competitive matchups that have a good shot at being exciting. But they don’t do that.
Alan also correctly notes how bad Coker’s cards were before Showtime got involved. The only good card the guy had been part of was the Shamrock vs Baroni event and that was all Gary Shaw.
As far as Overeem vs Rogers I am looking forward to that fight. The title is meaningless but it should be a good scrap between two big bubbas and someone should be getting KTFO’d.
A prime example of Coker’s ineptitude is the way he handled Jay Hieron vs Nick Diaz. Diaz flat out ducked Hieron and got rewarded for it. Coker let him avoid Hieron and be champ. How does Diaz reward Coker? By getting in a brawl and telling the Press that he wants to go to UFC. He should change his name to Scott Carpet the way these guys walk all over him.
As Alan correctly points out it should be routinely noted how worthless the belts are and it isn’t reported like that. SF has been raised to a level of supposed importance by an activist MMA media that hates UFC and supports everything non-UFC. Strikeforce is a joke. They should be focusing on putting on good, competitive matchups that have a good shot at being exciting. But they don’t do that.
For some people, this is part of it. I think a good part of it also is that for MMA’s internet fans, there’s a need to justify the current business model of MMA as being good for the sport in addition to being good for the promoter’s wallets. Part of that is to try and derive meaning from the meaningless – these straps of leather and metal that are supposed to be “championships” of some sort handed out by promoters.
I don’t necessarily hate the fights they did on CBS. I found them dull in action, but there were important questions answered there and the fights were between highly ranked opposition. I noted that Zach states one can slight Strikeforce for Carano/Cyborg…why? That was the most compelling match in women’s MMA history. Not doing it would have garnered far more criticism, especially with Carano looking to have one foot out of MMA.
I’m pretty interested in the heavyweight bouts they have coming up in a couple weeks. If it wasn’t for HBO having another stellar boxing card the same night (Khan/Malignaggi? Victor Ortiz/Campbell? Sign me up!) I might actually watch live.
Oh, where to begin….
1) The way they have treated Jake Shields and Robbie Lawler is nothing short of pathetic. Each of them getting naturally bigger opponents in order to beat them on their way out. I have no problems (and fully understand) them trying to get a “L” on their records out the door…. But at least do it in a respectable way…. Which is against somebody their own size. And it could bite them in the butt again. Babalu has a weak chin and Lawler hits hard.
2) The rankings of their fighters…. Including their champions…. is awful. Overeem in the Top 10 for beating Buentello years ago. Mousasi still being ranked in the Top 10 despite his only big win at LHW being against Babalu and then his horrible performance against Lawal. Diaz going as high as #6 on many rankings. It’s all a way for the fans and the media to push their one sided, anti-UFC attitudes. This is the same garbage we saw when Arlovski all of a sudden went to #2 in the world before his fight with Fedor. And to this day people are still saying Fedor has fought a Top 5 fighter in the last 4+ years (which he has not).
3) Look at Strikeforce’s Heavyweight Division. It really consists of Emelianenko, Werdum, Arlovski, Rogers, Silva, & Overeem. Rogers, Arlovski, & Silva are all coming off loses. Emelianenko & Overeem are nearly impossible to control. And Werdum still has the stigma of being a boring fighter who got wrecked by Dos Santos. And this is suppose to be their big time division.
Strikeforce’s biggest problem is that they TAKE, TAKE, TAKE from the sport and then don’t add anything back to it in return. What fighters have they taken from scratch and really built up? They are good at signing ex-UFC talent and trying to repackage them. They are good at taking DREAM Champions and using zero build up to get 1 horrible fight out of them. And to make matters worse, not only do they not build up…. But the what they do use…. They use up SO QUICKLY that it actually hurts the sport overall more then anything (see the demise of DREAM Champions as example).
We are already at the point now that they used up all of their resources and got nothing out of them. Melendez & Diaz are left with no real challengers. The Middleweight Division is in shambles. Who is Lawal going to fight next? I really have absolutely no clue. And their Heavyweight Division is a mess due to Fedor and Overeem being such pains.
All of these problems stem from Fedor Emelianenko. If they never signed him, they wouldn’t have expanded so quickly, and they would have been able to get all of their ducks in order before making a big push. They really should have used the entire 3 years of their Showtime contract to build things up organically (see WEC as an example). Instead, they signed Fedor Emelianenko…. The rest of the big contracts followed…. And they have no organizational skills to make up the difference.
If I am Scott Coker…. I use 2010 to get out of all of the bad deals I made. Either dump fighters or have them fight out their bad contracts and get rid of them (like Henderson). I then start from the ground up. Build each division up properly. Test the athletes from day one and have them really showcase their skills. Watching the way they have handled guys like Kennedy, Souza, Cavalcante, & Woodley has been cringe worthy….
I don’t think the answer is to just put on “good fights”. The casual fans still need to know who the champion of each division is. But they need to make those belts the centerpiece of their organization. They have 7 champions. Those champions need to be fighting 3 times a year on Showtime. They need to build some rythm to their shows. Use the WEC model of a Title Fight and Unofficial #1 Contenders fight as the co-main event. If they do this model for even 1 year…. People will be amazed at how well organized they would look all of a sudden.
And one more thing…. They need to shrink their “territory”. They should not go to the East of the MS River. They should concentrate on 5 or 6 key Western or Middle America markets and strengthen them slowly as well.
There is a spot right now for Strikeforce filling a niche. They just need to be smarter at accomplishing it.
You know I understand that your job when covering a story is to not brush the bad under the rug, but it’s also your job not to brush the good under the rug either.
You’re sitting there and telling me that in a year where we have seen the quality of fights that we have, be it in terms of entertainment, box office, or importance to a division, Strikeforce has dropped the ball? Has Strikeforce made some mistakes? Of course. But this is their first year promoting at this level. If you look back to when Zuffa bought the UFC, their position was not altogether that different from Strikeforce’s is now in many ways and they made a lot of the same mistakes Strikeforce has (UFC 33, for instance).
Beyond that, though, where’s the acknowledgment for what they have done well? Where’s the credit to them for putting together box office fights like Fedor/Rogers or Cyborg/Carana? Where’s the credit to them for putting together exciting fights like Smith’s bouts with Le and Radach or Manhoef vs. Lawler? Where’s the credit for the vast number of bouts from Melendez vs. Ishida/Thompson/Aoki to Diaz/Zaromskis to Babalu/Mousasi that have been hugely important to MMA and, in most cases, were great fights as well?
I don’t understand this mentality wherein people want to put “what’s good/bad for the sport” or what promotional mistakes/successes a company has made before the actual sport itself. I thought what actually mattered the most were the fights? Is a company accountable for their errors in areas? Of course. But to talk about this past year as a failure of sorts when all they have done is give their audience fights that were incredibly important or exciting just seems ridiculous to me. Maybe I’m an idealist but I just think there are some things that are more important to the sport than how many advertisements you pay for.
All-in-all, it’s really unfortunate that this obsession from journalists and hardcores to “legitimize” MMA in American culture has led the followers of this sport to condemn Strikeforce for promoting important fights between great fighters reasonably poorly while praising the UFC for promoting horrendous fighters like Kimbo Slice well. And here I actually thought it was the fights that mattered.
They get ZERO credit for Carano/Cyborg. That fight was gift wrapped by EliteXC for them. They didn’t even promote the fight properly.
“I don’t understand this mentality wherein people want to put “what’s good/bad for the sport” or what promotional mistakes/successes a company has made before the actual sport itself. I thought what actually mattered the most were the fights?”
Just because you’re not seeing the big picture here, doesn’t mean Zach Arnold is wrong.
This stuff matter for the actual fights. When EliteXC went under, what happened to their last show planned? All of the fighters were left with nothing. And what happened when fighters like Shields and Lawler tried to get out of their contracts? They were held up in limbo for months as everything got sorted out. It held up the fights. And despite Shields and Lawler wanting to go to the UFC, they couldn’t because some other promoter they didn’t even sign with originally got their contracts. Once again, it effected the fights.
And when a company like Strikeforce continues to TAKE, TAKE, TAKE from the MMA community… And gives little back… That is not a good thing. In the matter of their 1 year, they have done the following…
1) Potentially killed MMA on Network TV for a very long time.
2) Taken DREAM Champions, didn’t even build them up to a new audience, and killed their credibility amongst American Fans with really ZERO in return.
3) By signing Fedor, they got in the way of what fans really want to see…. Which is Fedor vs. Lesnar/Carwin/JDS/Velasquez. Of course that doesn’t mean Fedor would have automatically signed, but at least he would have been dumped in the rankings instead of fighting non-top 5 guys and hanging out…. Really the worst of both worlds.
Strikeforce has done more harm then good for the MMA Community over the last year. They should hardly be praised. Much like Affliction before them…. All they have done is taken other people’s work and tried to repackage it as their own. But what they are really doing is just negative MMA Math. If you own a Christmas Tree Farm, you plant trees every year so in 10 years you can sell them. What you don’t do is allow people to cut down trees every year…. Don’t plant new ones…. And then use your neighbors trees to make up for the deficit. Eventually the resources run out…. AND THE GOOD FIGHTS RUN OUT.
Strikeforce is more a virus at this point to MMA then a contributor.
1) Potentially killed MMA on Network TV for a very long time.
I don’t know that you can blame them for that, or that their failure represents a lost opportunity for the UFC. The UFC is far, far off from a network deal that works for them, and that’s that.
2) Taken DREAM Champions, didn’t even build them up to a new audience, and killed their credibility amongst American Fans with really ZERO in return.
Completely irrelevant unless you have some particular urge to see DREAM stumble on. Their champions are equally irrelevant.
3) By signing Fedor, they got in the way of what fans really want to see…. Which is Fedor vs. Lesnar/Carwin/JDS/Velasquez. Of course that doesn’t mean Fedor would have automatically signed, but at least he would have been dumped in the rankings instead of fighting non-top 5 guys and hanging out…. Really the worst of both worlds.
This is true only if you have vested interest in a particular promoter’s business going well. You yourself even recognize the enormous and illogical leap made here. As is, Fedor will likely fight again, not on PPV, and very likely next month.
I don’t like Strikeforce in general, but I find most of the arguments against them spurious.
1) UFC 33. Was Scott Coker not a fan of MMA back when it returned to PPV? Any long time fan knew the cardinal rule…. Which is you don’t put on 3 title fights on 1 show. And why not? Because of exactly what happened at UFC 33 and now the Strikeforce CBS 2 card. And this just isn’t for the UFC. This is for any organization. Strikeforce puts a mediocre at best main event on with a bunch of names for the hardcores and not casual fans…. And then they get beaten in the key demographic by a UFC re-run. I can’t see any of the 4 major networks touching MMA for a long time.
2) A washed up fighter in Takanori Gomi was better promoted on a UFC Fight Night then Shinya Aoki and Marius Zaromskis on CBS and Showtime respectively. The titles aren’t as important as what was done with the DREAM Champions. Especially with Aoki… Here is a guy with a unique style. A guy who has a long history in Japan. Except for a few sentences, that was never really brought out to the casual fans. So here you have a guy who has been built up for 2 years in Japan…. And then with absolutely no hype… He is a footnote in North America in 30 minutes. He was completely wasted in the spot he was given.
3) That has nothing to do with a particular company doing well. It’s about seeing the top guys fight each other. Something, in general, we see at LHW, MW, WW, FW, and BW. And at LW, things are starting to come together quickly with Japan’s MMA Lightweights looking more irrelevent by the day.
1) So what should they have done? Not taken a CBS deal and the accompanying money? Thrown together some “action” bouts that would likely consist of early finishes? EXC did that and got slammed for it. They’re in a no win situation with a lot of people, particularly those who squarely see themselves as being part of Team UFC for whatever reason.
2) Gomi was signed to the UFC and appeared on a show that was watched by the same group of people that always watch free UFC shows. Big deal. Further, Aoki wasn’t a real world champion and neither was Zaromskis, but the thing that Strikeforce should have done is promoted more paper belts? Great.
3) It has everything to do with a particular promoter doing well. You just said its preferable that Fedor have not signed and just fallen into obscurity and out of the rankings.
1) Yes, they shouldn’t have taken the CBS deal. I know that is hard to understand for many…. That just because a deal is available…. doesn’t mean a company should take it. Strikeforce did not have the foundation to be ready for such a large stage. None of their divisions were worked out. None of their markets outside of San Jose were matured. Just putting on good fights doesn’t cut it. Like I have said above…. They should have stuck to Showtime for 3 years. Gotten everything in order. Slowly increased their staff. Slowly worked on specific markets. Get their divisions and their system of creating new challengers in order. Going to CBS with none of this in place was suicide….
2) I don’t think you are understanding what I’m saying here. It’s not like they took some lesser known fighter and put them into title fights. They took guys who have a storied career in Japan. A good history. Fighters who took a while to build up there. And they used NONE of that to their advantage. No great video packages. No real hype at all. They took a real talent in Aoki, and just wasted all of it. That is completely unacceptable.
Look at how the UFC does it. When UFC 113 airs on PPV, they will already have the video package available for UFC 114. It will probably play once or twice during the prelims and the PPV itself. You don’t even see this sort of stuff with Strikeforce. You didn’t see Aoki being hyped up on their previous show. They are so disorganized that they probably didn’t even know he was fighting in April yet.
They completely wasted him with nothing to show for it. No increased viewers. No increased gate. They didn’t get him to look like a star before his fight.
3) We will have to agree to disagree on this one. We are seeing the same thing two different ways.
Yes, they shouldn’t have taken the CBS deal. I know that is hard to understand for many…. That just because a deal is available…. doesn’t mean a company should take it.
Three years from now they’d be in the same situation should the CBS deal even be available to them once they reject it. I doubt it was even a option to reject in negotiating for the assets of value from ProElite and the Showtime TV deal.
A good history. Fighters who took a while to build up there. And they used NONE of that to their advantage.
Its incredible. For years we hear repeated that no one cares about Japanese MMA in the US, and now we’re supposed to believe that some slick video packages would have somehow improved the ratings performance of the bout?
They did hype the main event of the upcoming show on their previous run on Showtime, which is about what the UFC does on preceeding PPVs.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one. We are seeing the same thing two different ways.
You flat out said that Fedor signing with Strikeforce was the worst option because he continues to fight relatively relavant fighters rather than the absolute top competition as percieved by the UFC’s fanbase. I don’t necessarily disagree with that. Its worth noting that it seems that by the time Lesnar gets back in the ring, Fedor will have fought twice during the period in which he was inactive.
Just to jump back in here without spending an hour quoting other people, I again make this point; Why is it the fact that we got to see Melendez/Aoki is overshadowed by the assumption that it could have been promoted better? Again, I ask the 45 Huddles of the world, what exactly are you watching the sport for? Fights or pre-match video packages?
The essence of booking is relatively simple:
You have two fighters who are fighting each other over a competitive grudge and/or a prize.
In the case of Aoki vs. Melendez, Strikeforce was supposed to push this as a DREAM vs. SF interpromotional match. The Japanese were trying to do the best they could on this front, but SF did absolutely no heat generation for this storyline at all.
To compound on the problem, the “prize” of the SF Middleweight title belt is a belt that isn’t taken very seriously by most MMA fans.
So, if you don’t hype up why there’s a competitive grudge between the two fighters and if the “prize” they’re fighting for is considered relatively meaningless, then you have a formula for the general public to look at such as a fight and think that the two fighters are nobodies that they’ve never heard of before and have no reason to care about. There was no emotional connection with the fans to give a rat’s ass about that fight.
Now, as far as Aoki and Melendez being both Top 5 guys at Lightweight, sure, it was an important bout, and I don’t think what happened detracted away from the perceived importance of it by insiders in the business. But for the average, casual fan, that fight was meaningless to them and that was/is a problem.
I don’t think you actually answered his question. And to be frank, I think he has a point.
As an aside, Fedor and Strikeforce have come back to terms on a contract. He’ll be fighting 6/26 against Fabricio Werdum. You have to imagine that Strikeforce is hoping for Antonio Silva and Overeem to both win and present them with some more options as far as heavyweight title fights are concerned.
As an addendum to this, it is being rumored for the same fight card a Scott Smith vs. Cung Le rematch. Why not? Smith would just get tooled by Nick Diaz and Robbie Lawler again and Cung Le was probably semi embarrassed that he tired out and then kayoed like he did against Smith. I have no problem with a rematch between the two. What else would be good fights for either guys? I’m sure Coker has no problem bumping Jay Hieron up to fight either one, or Robbie Lawler fight Cung Le (wouldn’t mind seeing that) or Melvin Manhoef fight either guy (again, wouldn’t mind those either).
Success for mma on cbs = #1 womens fight #2 HW fights/Fedor #3 Personality fights… Kimbo/walker #4 Diaz vs shamrock vs cung lee vs Scott smith style brawls.
Their last show had none of the above and held no interest to the the fair weather mma fans tuning in on sat night.
Imagine Oreo’s starts making cookies with no filling? hows that going to fly?
The signs Strikeforce stopped making sense came back when they sign the #1 hw and say they want to bring him up with a few fights before he fights the glass jawed slowvereem, who should have been stripped years ago.