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Media reports allege Team Pacquiao supposedly asked about possible drug test failures
By Zach Arnold | January 8, 2010
Tim Smith in the New York Daily News and Teddy Atlas on ESPN tonight raised the following — Team Pacquiao allegedly asked the following to Mayweather’s camp a couple of weeks ago:
- What would the penalty be for a failed drug test?
- Would the failed drug test remain a secret?
Bob Arum, of course, denies that the questions were asked. He’s furious and denies the validity of the report.
The information in that NY Daily News article was denied in furious fashion by Arum and Pacquiao’s Team. The negotiations were never the same after that article came out. That particular article was included in Pacquiao’s defamation suit against the Mayweathers and Golden Boy.
Now that Atlas has gone on record and stuck his neck out regarding the validity of the alleged questions, will Team Pacquiao include him in their defamation lawsuit?
Topics: Boxing, Media, Zach Arnold | 41 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
If true, then Manny is a complete idiot.
All Pacquiao has to do is agree to give a little blood beforehand and then he gets $40 million plus?
“If true, then Manny is a complete idiot.”
In fairness, none of us know the facts, even those who have been supporting Pacquiao unconditionally.
“Detective Roadblock Says:
Anyone who goes for Floyd’s drug testing argument is a mark. And that’s being nice.”
“I don’t know why Pacquiao is balking at taking a blood test, as thinking people with an intellect and with an honesty to go along with that intellect, one of the things you would have to say…..is he guilty of something? You would have to say that, you are not accusing him of that, you are not convicting him of that, you don’t have the information to do that, but when he says no to such a test, and then you have to wonder why? Here is a guy who has moved up many weight classes, maintained his speed, maintained his strength, and of course maintained his success rate, and when he says no so suddenly, you have to wonder….. why are you saying no?”
– Teddy Atlas
I usually respect teddy atlas but in this case he’s way out of line…
And I dont really get it. He is saying that Pacquiao’s agreement to test randomly up to 24 days out, and immediately after the fight, makes you wonder if Pacquiao’s moving up in weight successfully is the result of PEDs.. But what PEDs exactly can help you within 30 days of the fight, and not be detected after the fight? I’m not saying they, dont exist, but I dont know.
As far as the email allegations. It doesnt even make sense why Pacquaio’s camp would ask if they could keep the results a secret?? Do they really think Mayweather is asking for blood testing so that he can keep the results a secret??? That doesnt even make sense.
“I agree with Mayweather and his camp. They’re doing the right thing. They should take all the precautions to make sure that everything is done right. It’s good for the sport.”
– Andre Ward
Andre Ward is living proof that just because you win a gold medal, doesn’t mean you have the brains to comprehend the inner workings of your own sport.
No athlete should have the ability to dictate the drug testing policies on an individual basis. Plain and simple. It’s not only not FMJ’s place to ask, but it’s a not so subtle way of accusing Manny that he is doping.
Derek Jeter can’t request that Cliff Lee be drug tested to his standards before he goes to an at-bat with him.
Tom Brady can’t request that a member of a defense line be drug tested to his choosing before he lets them run after him and try to sack him.
And Lebron James can’t request that Kobe Bryant have drug testing to his liking before he plays him in the NBA Finals…
In no sport is this acceptable. In no sport can one athlete demand this of his opponent. It’s the overseeing governing body that has that authority, which in this case would be the Athletic Commission. And people often complain about the AC’s not doing enough, but their drug testing is on par with what the other major sports do.
Yet in boxing, somehow some people take Floyd’s side on this one. Too funny.
I’m guessing Atlas will be subpoenaed with regards to who his source is in on the e-mail claim.
In all the examples you list 45 Huddle–the testing procedures were bargained for–in each and every one of those examples. Hence, the players have already actually agreed to the terms imposed.
I also have to wonder why Smith (or the Mayweather camp) didn’t present a copy of this e-mail to the public if it’s a ‘holy grail’ that would prove their case. It’s not like it’d be very hard to present it if it was a legitimate document (unless it turns out to be a forgery which could lead to criminal complications beyond civil issues of defamation)…
Pac-man seems to be hiding something
“Yet in boxing, somehow some people take Floyd’s side on this one. Too funny.”
What is funny? Why would you denigrate someone else’s legitimate opinion simply because it differs from yours? You personalize these things and then end up throwing a drama queen fit and “quitting” the site. I’m sure you remember that. About a month ago, you claimed that you wouldn’t be posting here anymore. That lasted a week or so. And you’re in your mid-40s? Wow.
I repeatedly wrote that none of us knows what is going on behind the scenes in these negotiations. All I’ve done in addition to that is taken a sentence or something that’s been reported along the way and shown that it’s not an entirely unreasonable point of view to hold Pacquiao accountable for any failed discussions.
“Andre Ward is living proof that just because you win a gold medal, doesn’t mean you have the brains to comprehend the inner workings of your own sport.”
You have posted that you’re in your mid-40s and you make a living by working as a substitute public school teacher. Surely you’re not suggesting that you understand the inner workings of boxing better than Andre Ward.
If Manny passes the test, Floyd will accuse him of using masking agents. He never wanted this fight. Money just wants to fight the Welterweight versions of Peter McNeeley
Fluyid,
You are gullable…
As for the Floyd drug testing demands…. It’s not like I’m taking my own opinion and saying that is the law of the land here. I am looking at every other major sport in America and seeing how they do things. This is truly a first, and something that would be laughed at by most other sports.
“In all the examples you list 45 Huddle–the testing procedures were bargained for–in each and every one of those examples. Hence, the players have already actually agreed to the terms imposed.”
Wrong. In baseball, the players didn’t want testing. It was the government’s pressure that forced them. They had very little choice in the matter.
Wrong. In baseball, the players didn’t want testing. It was the government’s pressure that forced them. They had very little choice in the matter.
You’re right: They might have had standards applied to them. But they still went to the negotiating table with their union to come up with a testing system approved by the players union and MLB. Fact is that drug testing is just as much something you can alter the specifics of in a contract as are glove type or ring size.
I’m not at all surprised that Manny’s people would ask that re: release of information. Why wouldn’t they ask about specifics, particularly if worried? I don’t believe Arum for a second when it comes to his refutation that this was asked. He might not have done it personally, but that doesn’t mean someone else didn’t do it on his behalf like Michael Koncz didn’t (and very well could have). Heck, Arum lied initially that Floyd never offered the 14 day window and then later went back on that.
What is the point of drug testing if u keep it a secret???
What is the point of drug testing if u keep it a secret???
How much exactly was everyone going to be paid? You don’t know. I don’t know. If Manny tests positive, its kept secret, and Floyd is handed $5 million dollars out of Manny’s pocket, you’d never know the difference unless you were told.
We could have had one of the biggest bouts in boxing’s history, now we have this s***.
“If Manny tests positive, its kept secret, and Floyd is handed $5 million dollars out of Manny’s pocket, you’d never know the difference unless you were told.”
Or Manny suddenly develops a case of the swine flu or something.
45,
I apologize to you for the tone of my last post. It wasn’t written in anger, but there is a definite degree of agitation.
I’m a Pacman fan and don’t particularly care for Mayweather’s antics, but Manny is hiding something. If Floyd said “I lost the last time I took a blood test” he’d be ripped to shreds but nobody wants to even question Manny? It’s a freaking needle. Either he’s a sissy afraid of getting a needle or he is using something illegal. Give him a lollipop, let his mommy in there to hold his hand and get it over with if he’s clean. We know people cheat the system so acting outraged when someone points this out is ridiculous.
There are any number of reasons to reject blood testing as a practicing fighter without the commission dictating it. Floyd has put out that he offered a 15 day non testing window leading up to the fight which physiologically would be enough to not really effect anything.
But that means 1. You believe a guy who is basically a pathological liar when he says that was offered. 2. You are forgetting that athletes are the most superstitious people on earth. 3. Boxers/fighters are even more superstitious than other athletes and 4. People from SE Asian culture are even more superstitious still.
So you have a Filipino boxer, who the last time he had blood drawn before a fight was the first fight against Eric Morales. A fight in which he lost and and Manny said having the blood drawn made him feel like crap. Now there is a logical reason for that and its that he was cutting a lot of weight. Having even a LITTLE blood drawn while cutting serious weight and not being able to eat or drink water can amplify the effects dramatically. Good luck however, convincing a Filipino boxer it was only because he was cutting weight when it was done. The effects would be much more subtle this time as Manny isn’t cutting as much weight but getting him to believe that would be pretty hard. So it would have a psychosomatic effect on him.
Gayweather and Co. know this. They are very good at psychological warfare and they figured Manny would cave. The only problem is they are broke and Manny is not. Manny didn’t need the fight and told them to go pound sand up their ass. Then sued them to boot. This whole thing stunk from the beginning when Mayweather immediately agreed to a 50/50 purse when he had been saying forever that he was getting a 60/40 split if the fight ever happened. Floyd never wanted this fight and the final reason why is this.
Any drug that Manny could train on without blood testing,(only EPO or blood doping as there is an HGH urine test now), would not have time to take full effect to help him train harder for 2 weeks of camp leading up to the final week of relaxing and prepping mentally for the fight. Honestly it would probably hurt Manny as his body would be used to training with the more oxygenated blood and he couldn’t fight on it because of the post fight blood test.
And the other thing none of us know… For most blood work you have to fast for 8 hours before. If Manny had to fast for 8 hours prior to any of these multitude of blood tests that would be horribly distracting to his camp as he’s naturally a smaller man compared to Mayweather and needs to eat constantly to maintain size at 147 during training camp.
Superstar boxers dictate unique stipulations all the time, including Manny. I’m not sure what baseball has to do with this at all. As I see it asking for unique testing for this fight is no different than superstar boxers asking for a unique catch-weight, a specific ring size, a specific glove, etc. The story here is that both of these fighters are spoiled superstars who are used to getting the exceptions they want over opponents with less leverage.
Why didn’t this ruckus occur when Manny made Cotto and DelaHoya fight him at catch-weights? Because those guys manned up and did what was asked for their insane pay days. Now with an even bigger pot on the line, Manny’s position is disturbing and childish. If he has nothing to hide he should be a man and take the tests, then win the fight. I’m no longer as big a fan of his as before. I’ve never liked Mayweather but I can’t pretend he is in the wrong here just because I don’t like his personality or his motives.
Oh and Andre Ward has probably forgotten more about the trials and tribulations of the boxing industry than any self-proclaimed expert on this board.
Arum admitted the 14 day window was offered and turned down. Manny isn’t some stupid primate who believes in witchcraft, either. C’mon. You’re basically making Pacquiao into a noble savage who fights and needs someone equally noble like Bob Arum or Michael Kontz to help make his decisions. That is preposterous and insulting. News flash: You believe the guy who’s booking Antonio Margarito/Carson Jones for Manny’s undercard without any second thought. News flash: You believe the guy who’s booking Antonio Margarito/Carson Jones for Manny’s undercard. Pacman’s people are’t to be trusted.
Blood work is a red herring. You think they make cyclists fast if they’re taking blood before a time trial stage? Ridiculous.
Hit paste twice when writing in that sentence. Oops! Oh well. Point stands. Arum has no credibility, particularly in regards to Mayweather.
Alan first off, athletes are extremely superstitious and I wonder how familiar you are with traditional culture from SE Asia. You realize there is a reason people in SE Asia still traffic in Tiger Genitalia. Its because in traditional medicine there its a cure-all. Manny isn’t from the backwoods but alot of that still goes on out in the Philippines.
Here is a list of 20 ghosts/demons that are common superstitions in the Philippines.
http://www.philippine-portal.com/arts-and-culture/traditions-and-customs/superstition.html
Here’s more Filipino superstitions. Bizarre ones like singing while cooking means you will be widowed or propping your chin on your hands will be bad luck.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/filipino_american_lifestyle/110149
Here is just one more example. Maybe you should get more ethnic friends dude. It amazes me that you didn’t know this about Filipinos and makes you seem very ignorant when you think there isn’t a tremendous influence of folklore and superstition on their everyday life.
“Whenever you come to visit the Philippines be aware that many Filipinos still hold on to folklore that doesn’t have any scientific or logical basis. You might want to be polite and respect some of the local lores and superstitions so as not to offend the locals.
Some Filipinos comply with these superstitions for the sake of camaraderie. But there are people in the Philippines who ignore these superstitions sensing them to be downright ridiculous.
We’ll discuss some of the many superstitions that relate to a wedding in the Philippines. Some of these may come as a shock and some may even raise an eyebrow. Just don’t make fun of it or laugh out loud in front of the folks as that is considered being rude.
Let’s say you’re invited to a wedding in the Philippines. When considering gifts, knives and other sharp or pointed objects are considered bad gifts. It is a common superstition that these gifts lead to a broken marriage.
On the other hand, the other half of this superstition holds that if you give a chamberpot (locally known as “arinola”), this brings good fortune to the newlyweds.”
A VERY shortened list of Filipino superstitions. Since my other post didn’t come up I’ll say it again. You sound ignorant talking about Manny not being superstitious and not taking into account the culture he comes from which is perhaps the most superstitious on Earth
Others include:
1. If you see plastic flying in the air, if you catch it, it will make you strong.
2. If you are sweeping at night, you must say “Excuse me” to the spirits you may be hitting.
3. If lightning strikes a tree, you should climb to the top and get the “Eye of the Lightning” a tooth shaped part of the tree and make a necklace out of it. It will make you strong, when your chicken is to go to the cockfight, dip this eye of the lightning in it’s bath water and it will win.
4. Is you step on a “Nuno” (spirit) you will become sick or wounded.
5. If you drop a fork on the ground accidentally you will have a male visitor.
6. If you are pregnant you can not attend a baptism of another baby or your child and the other will become rivals. (One version says you can’t be the godmother)
7. Don’t sing while cooking or you will become widowed.
8. Don’t rest your head on your chin or you are awaiting bad luck to happen.
9. Don’t sleep with your feet towards the door or you are waiting to die.
This is only a very short list as Vampires, ghosts, demons and spirits of all size and shape are commonly believed.
NOW it posts… grrrr
Again, your long rant is borderline racist in what seems to be a desperate attempt to slam “Gayweather” for asking a guy who’s increased his mass roughly 50% from the start of his career to take a blood test for roids. Manny isn’t some illiterate, headhunting villager incapable of using or being tested for steroids, nor are any other boxers in the Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, etc.
Again – Learn something. Maybe travel. Superstitions in the Philippines are deeply rooted part of their culture. It has nothing to do with him being some savage as you put it. Filipino’s are superstitious because of the way they are raised. Manny had blood taken before and lost. I guarantee in his mind he’s become superstitious about having blood drawn before a fight and attributes the loss to that even though his weakness was caused by a combination of fasting/not drinking water and having blood drawn.
“Learn something” LOL. Okay, let’s do that. Here’s something for you to learn:
http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World_Anti-Doping_Program/WADP-IS-Testing/WADA_Int.Standard_Testing_2009_EN.pdf
You find me in that where it says fasting is required before bloodwork and I’ll admit I’m totally off base and that Manny’s “fears” exist. Because I looked: Sitting in a relaxed position for ten minutes doesn’t sound like fasting to me. This ain’t a cholesterol test.
And to correct your numbers, increased his mass about 40%, (he cut a few pounds to make 106 now cuts almost nothing to make 147), from the time he was a malnourished 16 year-old eating on the money he got selling stolen cigerettes.
Henry Armstrong – (5’5 1/2″) His recorded pro career, (when they walked into the ring at what the scale reports), begins when he is almost 19. He fought his first pro bout at 120lbs, 5 months shy of his 19th birthday. 21-24 years old he is fighting at 130-135. About 25 he starts fighting exclusively at 135 lbs. Just before his 27th birthday he starts fighting at WW and weighs around 140. At 30 years old he is weighing in between 140-145 lbs for his welterweight fights but can still cut down to the mid 130s for LW fights.
Heaviest weight of his career was 148 lbs at 29 years old for 1 fight.
Manny Pacquiao – (5’6 1/2″ His first recorded bout is just after he turned 16. He weighed 106. When he turned 18 his avg. weight for fights is 113 lbs (weighing in the day before). Just before his 20th birthday he captured the WBC flyweight title at 112 lbs. He made weight at 112 just one more time before missing weight for a title defense and vacating less than a year later. He jumped directly to 122 the day after his 21st birthday. (So between 16 and 21 he went from weighing 106 lbs to not being able to cut to 112 anymore and skipping 2 weight classes in between.) A month before he turns 25 he moves to 125. At 125 he beats Marco Antonio Barrera and hits the national scene. (At this point he is making real money now and can actually afford proper nutrition and conditioning programs.) Just after turning 26 he has moved to 130. At 29 years old he moves up to 135 for his 1 fight with David Diaz and then jumps 142 for the DLH fight in which he steps on the scale almost completely hydrated and unofficially walked to the ring at 148.
At 30 years old he weighs in at 144 for Miguel Cotto and I don’t remember if they did an unofficial walkout weight but seem to remember 149 lbs. (and FTR Cotto and Pac’s body measurements are almost identical).
So to recap
H.A. 5’5 1/2″ (weighing in the day of): 19 – 120lbs, 25 – 135lbs, 27 – 140lbs, heaviest weight of his career walking into the ring 148 lbs at 29.
M.P. 5’6 1/2″ (weighing in the day before): 16 – 106, 18 – 113, 21 – 122, 25 – 125, 26 – 130, 29 – 135, 30 – 144
Pac and Henry Armstrong are the almost identical in their post-poverty weights throughout their career with Pac having an extra inch on him, the only difference is Pac cut weight for the first 12 years of his career and Homicide Hank didn’t. At 130 they are at the same NATURAL fighting weight.
So for anybody else that doesn’t know shit about boxing history there you go.
At 30 (years-old) they are the same Natural fighting weight. Typo there at the end.
and… since you wanted to be a smart-ass maybe you should have read that link you posted
“7.3.3 The DCO shall provide the Athlete with the opportunity to hydrate. The
Athlete SHOULD AVOID EXCESSIVE REHYDRATION, having in mind the requirement to
provide a Sample with a Suitable Specific Gravity for Analysis.”
This generally is mainly for urine testing but also applies to blood testing because that’s how cycling teams beat EPO tests. Cyclists were, (I’m not sure as of now, but prior to everybody in the sport besides Lance being caught), tested as team and the main guys that were blood doping would take IV’s immediately before getting a sample taken to lower their hematocrit levels.
Oh and since I’m not positive of their procedures and its possible they can send an inspector, (and I couldn’t find it in the regs), I’ll not say in absolutes… But this is supposed to take place at a specified doping control station on an on-call basis, (Which in the Philippines is managed by and located at the Philippine sports commission in Manila, on the north island, while General Santos City is on the southern tip of the south island.) This would have much larger implications and inconveniences on Manny since he runs his camp in there than it would on Floyd who would be training in the US and could be a testing center within the hour. It also dictates in there you must submit to an 18 month period of monitoring with time and place of your daily activities and a 60 minute window for testing. I wouldn’t submit to that shit for 18 months either on some other fighters demand for 1 training camp.
Being superstitious is a lame excuse, no matter where you grew up. This is 2010 and the fight is in the USA. It isn’t ignorant or insensitive to point out facts > fantasy.
I’m glad Manny is taking a superb challenge with Clottey though. It doesn’t entirely undo this debacle but at least he continues demonstrating outstanding heart and courage.
You’re allowed 3 whereabouts failures for on-call drug tests in 18 months. No wonder FIFA and UEFA rejected WADA.
Your evidence that he has to fast for 8 hours (or more) prior to testing is that he’s not allowed to *excessively* hydrate? That is absolutely ridiculous, and you know it.
Pac and Henry Armstrong are the almost identical in their post-poverty weights
This is ridiculous. Manny was “post poverty” fighting at 122 and 127, Henry Armstrong was a lightweight. 10 lbs in those classes isn’t a menial issue.
Alan you officially know nothing about the history of boxing… Armstrong was fighting at 135 the hours after the weigh-in. He wasn’t cutting 15 lbs then re-hydrating over night. He was cutting 7 or 8 lbs, drinking water and getting in the ring. Manny was cutting to 130 and walking into the ring at 144lbs.
To quote an article at BoxingScene:
“The official scales are misleading in this time.
Pacquiao is roughly the same size, as a small welterweight, as men like Barney Ross, Jimmy McLarnin and Jose Napoles were in their day. Like Pacquiao, McLarnin started as a teenager near Flyweight yet scored big knockouts on all points of the scale. While Pacquiao was as low as Jr. Lightweight as recently as 2008, and is succesfully competing at Welterweight now, those were weigh-in weights rather than in-ring weights.
For the first fight with Juan Manuel Marquez in 2004 at Featherweight, Pacquiao hit the scales at 125 lbs. He entered the ring, (according to the unofficial HBO scales), at 137 (or Jr. Welterweight). By 2006, for the third fight with Erik Morales, Pacquiao had moved up a weight division and weighed 129 officially and 144,(A Welterweight), unofficially.
Other notable spreads for Pacquiao include:
129 and 145 for the Juan Manuel Marquez rematch in March 2008
142 and 148 1/2 for the Oscar De La Hoya fight in December 2008
138 and 148 for the Ricky Hatton fight in May 2009”
The man has been a WW for quite a while and was young, poor and malnourished when he started his career at 106.
Between 25 and 30 the man gained 11 lbs lol. WOW that’s AMAAAAZING. You’d almost think the human body was meant to do that.
The man has been a WW for quite a while and was young, poor and malnourished when he started his career at 106.
He had more than enough money to eat when he was fighting at 120 against Emmanuel Lucero and Agapito Sanchez. How many other super bantams have made successful transitions to welterweight in the last 30 years? Wilfredo Gomez only got as far as 130 and was a massive puncher. Same with Morales.
Between 25 and 30 the man gained 11 lbs lol. WOW that’s AMAAAAZING. You’d almost think the human body was meant to do that.
Gaining 20 pounds of pure muscle and losing none of your quickness from the age of 23 to 30 is pretty impressive.
I should say its “pretty impressive when 20lbs is 1/5 your body mass”.
I hate to pile on ‘ol skwirrl here, but another thing to learn 4 u:
http://translate.google.de/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faz.net%2Fs%2FRub9CD731D06F17450CB39BE001000DD173%2FDoc~E1632C5206D4C4830B5D6295783DB5773~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html&sl=de&tl=en
Turns out that Arthur Abraham and his promoter Sauerland have been pushing for NADA based blood testing for quite some time. I guess they have no idea how boxing works either?