Friend of our site

MMA Headlines


Josh Gross

MMA Fighting

MMA Torch

MMA Weekly

Sherdog (News)

Sherdog (Articles)


Liver Kick

Fightsport Asia

Caged In

MMA Junkie

MMA Mania

Bloody Elbow



MMA Ratings

Rating Fights

MMA Convert


Fight Medicine


MMA Frenzy


Kevin Iole

Yahoo MMA Blog

MMA Betting

Search this site

Latest Articles

News Corner

MMA Rising

Audio Corner


MMA Dude Bro

Sherdog Radio

The Fightworks Podcast

Eddie Goldman

Pro MMA Radio

MMA Torch

Video Corner

Fight Hub

The Fight Nerd

Special thanks to...

Link Rolodex

Site Index

To access our list of posting topics and archives, click here.

Friend of our site

Buy and sell MMA photos at MMA Prints

Site feedback

Fox Sports: "Zach Arnold's Fight Opinion site is one of the best spots on the Web for thought-provoking MMA pieces."

Site Meter

« | Home | »

Andy Foster in California doubles down on using anonymous judges for performance reviews

By Zach Arnold | February 21, 2015

Print Friendly and PDF

First, a summary of events that transpired at the February 18th Los Angeles meeting for the California State Athletic Commission:

Onto the details…

John Frierson re-appointed to CSAC board, no longer Chairman

Mr. Frierson read a prepared statement:

“First, I want to express my thanks to our Executive Officer Andy Foster who I believe has done an excellent job for this commission. When he was, when I was elected Chair a number of years ago the Governor instructed me — instructed me — that this will be, he would like diversity on this commission and in the boxing (sphere here). Period. And we have followed that. I am pleased that Mr. Foster has stayed in line to that end.

“On February 6th, I was re-appointed to the commission by Assembly Speaker Toni Atkins and that’s through 2019. And if I stay through that whole time, I’ll be 89. But having said that, I’m stepping down as Chair today. But not from the commission. I have worked with many of you and many of the commissions but this one is the best and I want to thank everyone at this table very much. We don’t always agree but most of the time we end up on the same page. I just want to thank you, Andy, and I want to thank the rest of the commissioners.”

To the surprise of no one, Governor Jerry Brown’s conduit to the CSAC board John Carvelli was appointed Chairman. We reported on Carvelli’s financial & lobbying records last year. Carvelli’s dental HMO, Liberty Dental, uses the same lobbying firm as the UFC in Sacramento.

Top athletic inspector assistant to Mark Reylea, Rick Estrada, given an award

Declaration by Andy Foster:

“In brevity, Mr. Estrada is literally the best ring measurement, he takes care of our rings when he’s there. He does all that. He does the drug testing. He’s been out with me on Sundays when we’ve went and looked at all these other things. He goes with me to press conferences. He’s done drug tests. He’s… he is… if I call Rick, it gets done. And so I just thought he deserved some recognition.”

John Frierson gave Andy Foster an award. John Frierson was given a special gavel.

DCA’s top lawyer asserts control

Doreathea Johnson, who runs the show for legal affairs at Consumer Affairs, was in attendance at the Los Angeles meeting. DCA boss Awet Kidane declared to the Athletic Commission that he wanted a withdrawal of the Therapeutic Use Exemption proposal for testosterone. That request was granted. Doreathea Johnson wants a working group to deal with DCA legal to handle any such future changes. This TUE policy was the baby of Dr. Lemons, who is now gone. John Carvelli declared that Dr. Lemons “has retired.”

Doreathea had trouble pronouncing Martha Shen-Urquidez’s name.

Andy Foster using Matt Podgorski’s Pod Index report

The Executive Officer declared that CSAC has a contract with Matt Podgorski’s Pod Index LLC company to produce reports when needed.

Regarding the scoring by judges Tony Krebs & Raul Caiz Jr. for the Tyson Cave/Oscar Escandon fight last December on ESPN, Andy Foster stated the following:

“Unfortunately, we were off compared to the Pod Index and also to the media scoring the fight and also to Teddy Atlas at ringside.”

“[The Pod Index report] is an educational tool. We had the judges go back and re-score the fight, Mr. Krebs and Mr. Caiz Jr. Their findings, I’ll let them tell you what their findings are when they approach the commission.”

Dr. Christopher Giza raised concerns about the Pod Index report. The same concerns we raised regarding the use of anonymous judges and what styles those judges prefer when scoring fights. This process treats them as de-facto arbitrators.

Andy Foster replied:

“They’re anonymous on purpose but they’re licensed officials in other states. They’re typically officials that work high-level fights. So that’s all I can tell you. They’re licensed. They’re experienced. But they’re kept anonymous on purpose.”

Legally-speaking, that is a terrible argument to make and one that would not hold up in court if any official was disciplined based on the findings of a Pod Index report. Yes, one could make the legal argument that any judge affiliated with a major boxing sanctioning body has legal standing in California. However, the fact that such judges a) are anonymous and b) being granted authority for essentially a job performance exercise is an absolutely terrible precedent to set.

If the judges being utilized by Pod Index are high-level, then they should have no problems attaching their names to their score cards.

Judges Tony Krebs and Raul Caiz Jr. were summoned to speak in front of the Athletic Commission. To his credit, Krebs questioned the merits of the five judges used in the Pod Index fight review. He challenged the anonymity. He challenged the fact that the five judges could watch the fight in slow motion on TV. He raised questions about the perspectives of the judges being relied upon in the report.

In response, Andy Foster admitted that he thought the Cave/Escandon fight was close but that something went very wrong.

This is not an exercise to bash our officials. This is an exercise to improve our officiating and you’ll see more of this when we have a controversial score, it’s important for the officials to not just talk to me about it but occasionally talk to the commissioners about it because training and this type of stuff is important for us to move forward as a commission. This is a transparent body and I’m not certainly being critical but this is a fact. The winner of this fight propelled his career to epic proportions, very good. I think you guys would both agree with that. The loser of this fight did not.

The reason I’m saying this is we as a commission and you as the officials hold the livelihood of these athletes in your hand. I’m not being critical. What I’m saying is, we have to got to train as a commission. These fighters train for 8 weeks, sometimes 10 weeks, sometimes even longer in camps and we need you guys as the professional officials of this commission, the largest athletic commission in the United States, train and put in the same dedication, put in the same effort of being in the gym, scoring TV, doing these types of things and you’ll see more of these type of exercises coming out of the office, OK?”

Someone should tell the Executive Officer that the Athletic Commission is required to provide training to the licensees every six months. It’s in the code.

California Business & Professions Code section 18731:

18731. (a) In addition to the other requirements of this chapter and regulations adopted thereunder, no referee or physician and surgeon shall be assigned to a boxing contest if he or she has not completed a clinic offered by a provider approved by the commission.

(b) A referee or physician and surgeon shall complete a clinic within the preceding six months of a boxing contest.

It is the job of the Commission to provide the proper training to officials. If officials are not adequately trained, that falls on the Athletic Commission. Additionally, if a licensee has received the proper training from the Athletic Commission and cannot do their job, you petition the Athletic Commission as a body to suspend or strip their license. You do not issue arbitrary & unilateral temporary suspensions, even if the licensees are considered independent contractors and not employees. They are still representing a state regulatory body when performing their job duties.

The Executive Officer invited both Tony Krebs & Raul Caiz Jr. to attend an ABC training seminar with judge Duane Ford in San Diego this Summer. Andy Foster indicated that he wanted all California officials to attend this particular seminar.

Topics: Boxing, CSAC, MMA, Media, Zach Arnold | 2 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

2 Responses to “Andy Foster in California doubles down on using anonymous judges for performance reviews”

  1. rst says:

    Good lord!

    I’ve been waiting for the legendary silva to say something after being caught multiple times dead to rights.
    And he finally says “the tests haven’t been proven yet”?
    I never liked that dude.
    He’s talented as a fighter but he seems like a twit as a human being.

    On one hand I never thought he deserved the praise he got,
    on the second hand it irritates that he’s getting the reaction he’s getting.

  2. Andy Clueless Foster Sucks. Now he is running a survey. Tell him how bad he sucks.


To prove you're a person (not a spam script), type the security word shown in the picture.
Anti-spam image