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« | Home | »

JMM vs. Manny drawing 1.15M PPV buys & the great PED debate

By Zach Arnold | December 18, 2012

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Here’s the article from ESPN about the estimated buy rate. Here’s Dana White’s response trashing Arum for booking JMM/Manny 4 because Pacquiao should have gotten an easier fight. That sure doesn’t sound like the typical UFC PR line when it comes to matchmaking, does it?

Jim Lampley, on The Fight Game, had plenty to say about JMM’s win over Manny and the issue of doping in boxing.

Unfortunately, because of the presence in Juan Manuel Marquez’s training camp of a man who once admitted under oath to being a world-renowned purveyor of performance enhancing drugs, because of Marquez’s stunning appearance on the scale, followed by his stunning power in the fight, and because there was no drug testing beyond the Nevada State Athletic Commission’s one-time-only post-fight test, it suddenly became the public speculation centerpiece of the year’s most meaningful over-arching story in boxing, which is the sudden emergence of abundant circumstantial evidence that the sport faces a significant performance enhancement problem.

It’s no secret why boxing finds it so difficult to face up squarely and directly to its creeping problem with performance enhancing drugs. Other sports have been flagrantly guilty of that too, even though no other sport pays such a high price for a positive test. Only here does a single positive bring down an entire event, in the case of both Khan-Peterson and Ortiz-Berto earlier this year, a seven-figure event with a television date and advance publicity. But that in no way relieves the responsibility this sprawling, largely ungoverned enterprise has to protect itself and its participants from unwarranted mayhem. As the late Emanuel Steward observed, people aren’t hitting baseballs here; hey are hitting each other in the head. Whatever is the worst thing that can happen as the result of boxers employing modern medical science to strengthen their bodies, it hasn’t happened yet. But if nothing is done to further strengthen testing standards and applications, it surely will. And when it does, we won’t be complaining anymore that boxing can’t find its way into mainstream media. We’ll be there in a big way, and in no way to our credit.

Lampley named Dr. Margaret Goodman as his person of the year in combat sports. Roy Nelson is also in her corner when it comes to increasing the quality of drug testing in combat sports. Lampley said that Nonito Donaire is his fighter of the year because of the fact that he’s willing to go the extra mile to get drug tested. Dan Rafael echos those same sentiments in this posting.

Rory MacDonald called VADA testing annoying and a distraction. Matt Mitrione said the same thing, claiming that there isn’t enough money floating in MMA for fighters to use high-end designer steroids. Mitrione pushed the line that VADA hurt its credibility based on their dealings with Shane Carwin. Brent Brookhouse addressed this smoke screen last October and how the behavior of SEC-investigated Jason Genet is an example of what Brent characterizes as poor MMA fighter management.

Topics: Boxing, Media, UFC, Zach Arnold | 35 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

35 Responses to “JMM vs. Manny drawing 1.15M PPV buys & the great PED debate”

  1. Robert Poole says:

    First off Dana White is just straight out trolling now. The commenters in that article’s thread said it best: This is the guy who made Sonnen-Jones which is a bit of a soft touch for Jones and not a fight people were super clamoring for.

    As for PEDs, when I went to watch the PPV it was unanimous that nobody believed Marquez hadn’t been using. The fact that Marquez couldn’t pass the eye test means nothing when they have the ability to skirt legitimate testing. We all felt there was a very good chance he had juiced and we all knew he would pass a piss test because no way did he not know how to cycle with the guy he had in his corner.

    Blood testing is the only way to go. And in sports where most people are starting to become extremely suspicious of every athlete, someone needs to tell McDonald and Mitrione to shut the hell up. They look automatically guilty with the responses they gave.

  2. 45 Huddle says:

    For people who say steroids don’t make a difference…. This fight showed how it makes a huge difference….

    • David M says:

      Dude, are you fucking kidding? You say steroids dont make a difference all the time. You are like Dana White with your lying.

      • 45 Huddle says:

        Um, no.

        • david m says:

          You are a straight up pathological liar. Here are some quotes from you with a very simple google search:

          “Doctor’s say that as long as the TRT keeps them within the normal limits, it does NOt provide a competitive advantage.
          Listen to the doctor’s, not what you THINK is the right answer.”

          “I believe it was close to 2 to 1 that fighters who got caught for steroids lost the fight.”

          “TRT, done within the limits, creates no unfair advantage for the athlete.”

  3. Alan Conceicao says:

    Unless there is a quantum leap in how combat sports are governed, my personal opinion now is that everyone in it (including some of the promoters, wink wink) should be assumed guilty unless proven otherwise.

  4. Chuck says:

    I always had the opinion that Donaire is the man, and now I really think he’s the man. Barring his stance on PEDs (which I totally agree with), he is fighter of the year because of his in-ring accomplishments. Sergio Martinez, Andre Ward (only one fight this year though), and JMM are behind him, but this was Donaire’s year. Carl Froch is probably up there this year. And good for Roy Nelson as well. Me and a couple of my judo buddies had a conversation a few weeks ago on what MMA fighters are definitely clean. The only names we really came up with for definitiveness (others came up, but with asterixes) were BJ Penn and Roy Nelson. We also came up with Shinya Aoki, but we don’t know for sure (would we ever?). Maybe even Ben Askren.

    Boxers? We have Donaire, Mayweather, probably the Klitschkos, probably Miguel Cotto. Any others?

    • Alan Conceicao says:

      Vitali admitted to using steroids early in his career, generally when kickboxing. Given how muscular both are and that they box primarily in Europe (where testing is often times the responsibility solely of the promoter) it is possible they’re clean, but I point to my above statement. Vitali was a injury prone fighter up till his return in 2008, FWIW. Just sayin’.

      Donaire and Mayweather are mighty vociferous about it but I think Berto was too up until he was popped. Just sayin’.

      • Chuck says:

        Ah, didn’t know that about Vitali. I was thinking between the two Klits, that Wlad would more than likely be the clean one of the two. If he was that is. Yeah, he was very injury prone then, but now not. That could mean either he was dirty, and steroids put too much strain on his body (just check out Triple H from some years ago and his various knee problems) or that he is dirty now and the “vitamins” are getting him to recover quicker and better.

        About Berto…..he still claims it was that he was tainted or whatever with bad “supplements”. Same thing happened with James Toney after his win-that-became-a-no-contest over John Ruiz back in 2005. Fighters just have to be smart about what they take. Or they shouldn’t take anything at all to be TRULY clean. Or maybe fighters should fight more than two fucking matches a year so that way they would be tested more. Harry Greb used to fight 30+ fights a year, and he had only a handful of losses on his ledger, and is considered in the top ten boxers of all time by most people’s standards. What’s these guys’ excuse?

        • edub says:

          He has talked about using (Vitali that is), all the way back in the 90’s. If I had to make a guess, I’d say him and his brother are clean fighters. Could be wrong though.

          Donaire has gone through the most testing out of everyone, but his relationship with Conte makes even that almost void.

          Berto and Marlon Byrd are both COnte guys, and failed tests withing the past couple years. However, both have said the products they failed for didn’t come from him (as he made sure to tell the world about after they failed). Again, who knows?

          I always thought it was strange when Mayweather took all day to give the testers a urine sample for a fight a few years back (one that had a “24/7″ attached). Don’t know if that means anything either.

  5. Alan Conceicao says:

    Apparently CBS is happy with the 1.3 boxing drew Saturday afternoon and will be ordering more fights for next year. Boxing is doomed!

  6. Chris says:

    Dana White publicly ripping someone he doesn’t like? This being treated like some kind of real story is pretty amusing.

  7. liger05 says:

    1.15 mil is a good number but I think the previous fight could of turned people off. Maybe some thought Pacquiao wins again regardless after what happened to JMM before. I really think they way they should of promoted the fight was that JMM was robbed plain and simple.

    As for the PED debate, I find it quite ironic that fight pundits like lampley as well as fans are questioning whether JMM was juicing?

    When Team Mayweather were questioning whether Pacquiao was juicing and wanted random testing fans, pundits, journalists etc were all out saying floyd was ducking manny and there was no need for random testing as the commission tests anyway.

    • Robert Poole says:

      That’s because Mayweather was using steroids to duck Manny not because he actually did them. Manny agreed to the last testing requests Floyd made but it didn’t matter anyway because he had no interest in fighting him. The reason JMM’s possible PED use is being called out so strongly is because unlike Manny, there was a very noticable size increase over the course of the one training camp and here’s a guy who in three previous fights never came close to knocking Manny down, doing that and then knocking him cold in ways JMM doesn’t usually do. JMM is a volume puncher RE: his knockouts, not a one punch KO artists.

  8. Robert Poole says:

    BTW what ratings did UFC on Fox pull that night? I am curious if they did well also.

    • 45 Huddle says:

      UFC on FOX 5 did 4.4 Million Viewers. The 4 hour FX Prelim show beforehand did 1.2 Million. Here is the breakdown of the FOX Shows…

      UFC on FOX 1 (Velasquez vs. Dos Santos): 5.7 million
      UFC on FOX 2 (Evans vs. Davis): 4.7 million
      UFC on FOX 3 (Diaz vs. Miller): 2.4 million
      UFC on FOX 4 (Rua vs. Vera): 2.4 million
      UFC on FOX 5 (Henderson vs. Diaz): 4.4 million

      You have to wonder that if they can pull in over 4 Million per show on FOX each time…. If they would be making around the same amount of money as they would compared to putting on PPV’s for some of these smaller weight classes.

      If they are getting 250,000 PPV Buys for a Title fight…. After the cable companies take their cut, they would get about $6 Million. My guess would be that they are getting at least $4 Million per FOX show…. Maybe more. And I’m sure they get some extra money for the 3 hours on FX.

      Anyways, this is my long winded way of saying that with the smaller weight classes not selling well on PPV…. I wouldn’t be shocked to see up to 8 or so show a year on FOX and a reduction in PPV’s. It would help Zuffa out long term as it is a lot of exposure compared to being on PPV.

      • Alan Conceicao says:

        The Fox money is in the contract: X number of cards for X amount of money. If they can manage to satiate Fox with crap cards here and there done on the cheap for them, great. That means they can keep running just as many PPVs, which means more money. No matter how many cards Fox buys a year, there’s no incentive to stop running 12 PPVs a year until the buys drop below where they are already.

        • 45 Huddle says:

          That is not true.

          In 2010, Zuffa did 6 PPV’s in the first 4 months of the year.

          In 2011, Zuffa did 5 PPV’s.

          In 2012, Zuffa did 4 PPV’s and had to cancel one because they couldn’t find a main event… But really planned on 5.

          In 2013, they have only planned for 4 PPV’s in the first 4 months. This is something they have not done since 2009.

          I think it is obvious that they are starting to realize that they have a limit on the number of big shows. And what does it matter if the money comes from FOX or PPV. If it is about the same, it makes no difference to Zuffa. Plus, it has long term positives to stay more on FOX. But they don’t have the ability to do 8 FOX shows and 15 PPVs a year.

          And this idea that their deal is set in stone is just not true. White has already gone on record to say that the deal might be getting even bigger.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          LOL trying to disqualify the difference between this year and last because “they intended to run more!” They’d intend to run as many as they could get away with. If they don’t have fighters to make fights they won’t do them.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          Also I’m not saying the deal is “set in stone”. I’m saying if that Fox greenlights 8 for 2014, they’ll still want to run 12-15 PPVs like they always do anyways because the 8 Fox shows are basically guaranteed and the PPV money is extra dough on top of it. The UFC obviously doesn’t care about what kind of quality they put on Fox.

  9. liger05 says:

    It’s irrelevant if you believe Floyd was using it as an excuse to duck Pacquiao. He asked for random testing and at the time the majority of fans, journalists, pundits etc had didnt care about testing in boxing getting better. All they would say is ‘Floyd is ducking Manny’ when as I said it shouldn’t of mattered as better testing is a good thing.

    I agree JMM doesnt have one punch power but at the same time I could argue fighters do not move up from flyweight through to welterweight and sustain the punch power Manny did.

    What was the last fight Manny even looked liked that fighter with dyanamite in his hands? The Margarito fight?

    I dont know who has juiced and who hasnt but what I do know is the is drug testing in boxing should of been way better (other than floyd’s fights) long before JMM brutally knocked Pacquiao out. Fighters have failed tests before and fighters have admitted using PED’s before yet nobody seemed to care but now they do? That makes no sense to me.

    • edub says:

      “It’s irrelevant if you believe Floyd was using it as an excuse to duck Pacquiao. He asked for random testing and at the time the majority of fans, journalists, pundits etc had didnt care about testing in boxing getting better. All they would say is ‘Floyd is ducking Manny’ when as I said it shouldn’t of mattered as better testing is a good thing.”

      That’s not true though. There were plenty of people who thought it was a good idea when Mayweather was calling for random drug testing. IT was just painfully obvious Floyd had no interest when he kept changing the argument. First it was he wouldn’t work with Bob. Second it was the drug testing needs to happen. Lastly, it was he won’t take a split and Manny will get a flat 40 mill.

      May’s requirements for fighting Manny changed multiple times. The way it was done also was completely tasteless.

      The Marquez situation was completely different in that the only similarity was the suspicion from both sides. Manny didn’t have the quick jump in size, or work with a former Balco employee either.

      • Alan Conceicao says:

        The Marquez situation was completely different in that the only similarity was the suspicion from both sides. Manny didn’t have the quick jump in size, or work with a former Balco employee either.

        You mean like going from fighting at 129 against Marquez in the second fight to 134 against David Diaz for his first bout at lightweight, and then going straight to welterweight and weighing 142 against De La Hoya?

        • edub says:

          Are you trolling here?

          It’s common knowledge Manny cut a shit load of weight for his last fight at SFW. He hit 135 after cutting 4-5 lbs, and 142 is 7 pounds more than that. Are you trying to say a jump from 139-140 lbs to 142 lbs is a big jump?

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          You just said Manny never had “a quick jump in size” while we went up two weight classes in the span of a year. Meanwhile, Marquez weighs one pound more than he did in the 3rd fight and clearly, indisputably, he is on steroids and Manny isn’t. That’s absurd.

        • edub says:

          I just pointed out that Manny never had a quick jump in size. You just said two weight classes like its supposed to mean something when Manny clearly weighed around the same weight in both the last SFW fight and and the LW fight. And weight maybe a pound or two more in the De La Hoya fight (without having much more muscle definition).

          Then you say: “Marquez weighs one pound more than he did in the 3rd fight and clearly, indisputably, he is on steroids and Manny isn’t. That’s absurd.”

          Completely glossing over the part about JMM’s body change from pudgy LW to full fledged WW (or cutting JWW).

          He’s been smaller than Manny in every fight but the last one (where they were close to the same size). He was clearly more muscular this fight.

          Plus nobody ever said it was indisputable evidence. Stop moving the goalposts to make a point.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          No one cares enough to sit through pictures of what Manny looked like in 2008 between his fights. Look, do I think it is possible Marquez might have used PEDs? Yes. But this talk about it being off base to suggest that maybe Floyd Mayweather’s assertions about Manny couldn’t be possible are ridiculous to me. It is impossible to say that Manny doesn’t look different between those fights in 2008. I just went and looked myself using the magic of Google. But if you want, you can always have an excuse – he was dehydrated, he had a better tan, whatever. Manny today is a chiseled, full grown welterweight who started at 108lbs. Compare him physically to Joan Guzman, who started as a big time weight cutting 122lb fighter and now looks comparatively rotund at junior welterweight, and he has a bigger frame than Manny.

        • edub says:

          “No one cares enough to sit through pictures of what Manny looked like in 2008 between his fights. Look, do I think it is possible Marquez might have used PEDs? Yes. But this talk about it being off base to suggest that maybe Floyd Mayweather’s assertions about Manny couldn’t be possible are ridiculous to me. It is impossible to say that Manny doesn’t look different between those fights in 2008. I just went and looked myself using the magic of Google.”

          So you start everything off by contradicting yourself by saying nobody cares to go back and look at pictures, then immediately do it to try and make a point. Alan, never change.

          Again, let me reiterate for the underdeveloped, the issue with Mayweather’s accusations was never it wasn’t possible (or even that it wasn’t likely). It was always that Mayweather’s agenda was clear in that he wanted tarnish Pacquiao as much as possible in the public eye. The majority of people are smart enough to know Pac man using steroids is a possibility. The assertions from Mayweather were never about cleaning up the sport in terms of Pac man. They were about discrediting his run from 2008 on.

          Also, I help you on one imaginary point you are sadly mistaken on:

          “Manny today is a chiseled, full grown welterweight who started at 108lbs”

          Manny today is a chiseled welterweight who barely hits the 147 lb mark at weight in. He started at 108 lbs when he had turned the ripe old age of 16 a month prior. That’s a full grown man who barely walks around at 150 lbs at 5′7 17 years after fighting as a teenager.

          Besides, might want to pick somebody better to compare Manny to than a guy who has missed weight half the times he’s fought in the past 5 years, and is routinely known as a under-achiever who lacks discipline.

          But hey, you’re you. Never let common sense get in the way of a point.

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          So you start everything off by contradicting yourself by saying nobody cares to go back and look at pictures, then immediately do it to try and make a point. Alan, never change.

          Yes, I did, spurred by this very conversation. Have you?

          The assertions from Mayweather were never about cleaning up the sport in terms of Pac man. They were about discrediting his run from 2008 on.

          This entire discussion about Marquez is “gotcha” journalism/blogging without any substantive evidence. It has nothing to do with cleaning up the sport. If it had been, we’d be having a discussion asking ourselves if perhaps JMM was merely trying to put himself on an even playing field against the likes of Pacquiao for a change. This is about pointing at Marquez, saying “Roid user!” and trying to look smarter than the next guy on the internet.

          Manny today is a chiseled welterweight who barely hits the 147 lb mark at weight in. He started at 108 lbs when he had turned the ripe old age of 16 a month prior. That’s a full grown man who barely walks around at 150 lbs at 5?7 17 years after fighting as a teenager.

          Pacquiao has weight in at 147 for the last two fights he’s had. He came in over 150 for the Marquez fight on the unofficial scale. To point fingers at Marquez alone is ridiculous.

        • edub says:

          “Yes, I did, spurred by this very conversation. Have you?”

          No, I only brought it up in the first place (yes I did). However, I didn’t pretend that it was beneath me to take two seconds to look up the pictures before I did it in the first place.

          “This entire discussion about Marquez is “gotcha” journalism/blogging without any substantive evidence. It has nothing to do with cleaning up the sport. If it had been, we’d be having a discussion asking ourselves if perhaps JMM was merely trying to put himself on an even playing field against the likes of Pacquiao for a change. This is about pointing at Marquez, saying “Roid user!” and trying to look smarter than the next guy on the internet.”

          The is wholly inept, and completely discounts the actual reality of the situation (making only one close to decent point in perhaps JMM thought Manny was using). Angel Heredia (whatever he’s calling himself these days) doesn’t exist strictly in internet conversations. JMM’s change in size isn’t imaginary journalism from people just looking to create a separate story. JMM’s jump in power, from a guy who scored not one knockdown of Manny in three fights to a guy who knocked Manny down twice with possibly the hardest two punches he’s landed in his career, isn’t made up out of thin air.

          “Pacquiao has weight in at 147 for the last two fights he’s had. He came in over 150 for the Marquez fight on the unofficial scale. To point fingers at Marquez alone is ridiculous.”

          That’s not what anybody is doing though. People have been having the Pacquiao conversation for years now. However, the Pac man conversation comes with a guy whose fought above 140 lbs for the past 4 years, fought at a catch weight of 150 once, and has hovered around 148-150 on the unofficial scale since 2010.

          Marquez’s stats point to a more rapid rise, his appearance has both grown and become more muscular, and this has all come starting at the age of 37 with a guy whos former job it was to roid people up and pass tests.

          That’s the only reason Marquez is getting more attention now.

  10. RST says:

    DanaJoe has his gall insulting other peoples matchmaking.

    This is the guy who insulted and made the most talented natural fighter in MMA fight a short notice fight that got him injured,
    and then makes him play soap opera with a TRT cheat just to prove that he can get his way.

    No real fans ever “wanted to see it”,
    except for a tantruming danajoel and his twitter groupies.

    Or how about propping up a favored fighter with fluff fights and a false aura while scheduling all the more deserving comp endlessly against themselves until they pick each other off before they can get a shot.

    Maybe thats what danajoel means by going back to the boxing model.

    And thats just two of the ways that danajoel’s ego and revenge based matchmaking ruin great fighters and careers while celebrating faux idols.

  11. [...] But Lampley’s most pointed comments came when discussing the future of boxing if this continues to be an issue (transcription via Fight Opinion): [...]

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