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« | Home | »

Dana White excoriates Bob Arum, Gary Shaw, and Vancouver UFC 131 judges

By Zach Arnold | June 12, 2011

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How about we start out with this heartwarming reaction to the quality of judging at UFC 131 last night?

“I think it’s horrendous,” exclaimed Dana White in this post-fight video interview with Ariel Helwani at MMAFighting.com.

“It’s getting to the point now where I don’t even know what to say any more. You, you… It’s one thing if, you know, if you look at me and everybody’s going, ‘Oh, yeah, his business…’ Fans get pissed off and I get pissed off because these guys are hurting the fighters. It screws your record, it screws up your money, it screws up your legacy, everything, guys getting losses that shouldn’t have losses, you know, Bones Jones shouldn’t have a loss on his record right now, and the list goes on and on and that was a referee, not a, and I can go on for days what’s wrong with the officiating in this thing. The guys tonight and what’s even scarier is that we have fucking TVs in front of these guys. Maybe you couldn’t see it before, maybe the lights or you had a bad angle, you have a television in front of you now. Anybody who, the guys who did those 30-27s tonight should never score another fight again. I mean, you have to absolutely not know what you are doing to score that fight 30-27.

“There’s nothing that I can do. Listen, I’m out here again, I’m talking to the athletic commission, the commission that oversees me and regulates me… fix it.”

Which brings us to this passage from the interview:

ARIEL HELWANI: “Do the monitors work? Do you think they actually help?”

DANA WHITE: “Apparently not! Apparently they do not work at all, apparently they don’t. I figured if you had a hard time seeing the fight because maybe you got a bad angle, maybe it was something in front of you, but you know how many fucking bad angles you got to get to score some of those fights 30-27? And you had television monitors.”

ARIEL HELWANI: “In the mid-90s, you remember in boxing there were a bunch of bad decisions and everyone was saying, ‘this is fixed, this is bad.’ Are you ever afraid that we’ll get to the point where fans really start catching on and saying, ‘what’s going on here?’

DANA WHITE: “That’s what I was going to say to you. I mean, back in the day when we watched boxing, you know, you had these fights out there and you’d go, ‘fixed, this was a fix, they needed this guy to win so they did this and that.’ I mean, if people think that this is fixed and I’m not, when you fix fights you don’t run around bitching about it and pay the guys the money, more money than they, you know, Omigawa can say, hey, listen, Omigawa lost. It is what it is. I don’t believe that. I veto, man. I don’t think he lost. We’re going to pay your money and we’re going to treat you like you won.”

So, is the monitor experiment not producing positive results?

As bad of a mood as Dana was in about the quality of judging at UFC 131, he was in a great mood to address a recent interview by our friends at FightHubTV.com where they talked to Gary Shaw, Al Bernstein, Oscar De La Hoya, and Bob Arum about UFC recently purchasing Strikeforce. Suffice to say, Dana was ready to throw verbal bombs back at any remarks over that business deal from the boxing world.

GARY SHAW: “Great for the UFC, Fertittas, brilliant, brilliant move. For the fighters, terrible move because they don’t have another place to really go and bargain. So, you know, if you ask me as a businessman, I think it’s brilliant on the part of the UFC. I’m not even sure that when Strikeforce’s contract is up with Showtime that they just don’t fold it into the UFC at that point, let’s make it for PPV. For the fans, it’s bad. For the fighters, it’s bad. For the UFC, it’s terrific.

“Any time that you force fans to pay PPV for every single card you put on, then you’re screwing the fans. Not every card is a PPV value. Some are just general good TV value and then the special ones are PPV value, so I feel the fans get screwed.

“I think they’ll absorb them right into the UFC as soon as the contract’s up at Showtime. I’ll be surprised if the UFC changes their model and gives away fights for free, I don’t see it.”

AL BERNSTEIN: “Some would say, is it good? I’m not passing judgment one way or the other on UFC. They’ve been able to do it in that sport and have, to their credit, made it very interesting for the fans. The Strikeforce thing was a little different. That was the first time they’d actually have a true contender, somebody that would push them and would be, you know, worth while of thinking, ‘Oh, we have to buy these people, I’ve never bought people out before.’ But, you know, the question I guess and it’s a philosophical question, do you want competition or do you want someone to be able to put all the fighters together? Now, in other sports, clearly if there was no MLB or NFL we might never see the Dallas Cowboys play the Chicago Bears or the Oakland A’s play the San Francisco Giants or whatever, I could go on and on, because they might wouldn’t want to do it for some reason. You obviously want that to happen. But I don’t think boxing’s a situation where you can have a monopoly like that, I just don’t think it would fly.”

OSCAR DE LA HOYA: “Well, look, I mean… MMA is just a whole different, you know, animal compared to boxing. What we can do is just do our own thing, you know, with Golden Boy, is just try to make the best fights possible. We want to work with all the promoters, we want to work with every promoter and we are. We’re working with Gary Shaw, we’re working with Lou DiBella, we’re working with every single promoter out there except Top Rank which doesn’t want to work with us, so it’s very unfortunate but, you know, we’re in this business for the long run. I’m 38 years old of age, Richard my CEO he’s also very young, we’re going to promote the sport for a long time so we’re going to continue doing what we’re doing and eventually boxing will have the best fights possible.”

BOB ARUM: “Well, I don’t know what the laws are, but there seems there’s an anti-trust problem somewhere, but all credit to UFC for buying out Strikeforce, that’s a great way to make your competition disappear.”

***

What’s intriguing about the comments is that they may be the wrong messengers, but Shaw is spot-on. Al Bernstein is entirely reasonable in his assessment. Oscar wanted no part of any flame war with Dana White. Bob Arum was Bob Arum. So, all things considered, it wasn’t exactly earth-shattering commentary. However, Dana was clearly ready to proverbially go for Shaw’s throat in response.

“I don’t think I’ve ever been happier that you asked me a question as I am that one. Number one, Gary Shaw’s a moron, OK? First of all, this guy’s going out and copying everything that I say. He’s like, ‘Oh, they put on too many PPVs and they don’t give any free fights.’ What the hell are you talking about, you moron? First of all, Gary Shaw, what did he do, he’s done three fights this year and when I say that, fights that he actually promoted himself that were his actual fights and all three of them were on Showtime. Showtime is not free, okay? We’ve done 11 fights this year and four of them were free on free television, actual free television, free cable, OK, Gary, you idiot? You’re so dumb, I can’t even believe that I’m [responding to] your [response].

“And then the other one, Bob Arum? Let me tell you what about Bob Arum. First of all, Bob Arum is copying, you go to a Top Rank fight now, they’re copying everything we do, right? Now, Bob Arum is also the guy who, you know, he’s out there crying ‘Anti-trust! Anti-trust!’ Bob Arum, go back and look through the records in an interview that he did, he was laughing at the Fertittas for investing in this company, he was laughing at them, basically saying, ‘they’re idiots, they’re losing oodles and oodles of money.’ Now you’re crying anti-trust, Bob? Bob, you weren’t smart enough to do this. You weren’t smart enough to do what we did to buy a company like this and basically change the fight industry forever and now you’re crying anti-trust? You guys sound like a bunch of crybabies.

“And, another one, Al Bernstein. I’ve known Al Bernstein for a long time and he’s towing the company line talking like, ‘I don’t know if this good or whatever.’ OK, Al, I see how it is.

“[Arum is] definitely taking a shot at us and what’s funny is, every time these guys have fights I pay for tickets to go to them. When they do their PPV numbers, I’m like, ‘good for them, I hope they do 2 million buys,’ you know what I mean? But if you look throughout the history of boxing, these guys have been crybabies, you know, they’ve always been crybabies. They’re the biggest bunch of babies you’ve ever met. Bob Arum, the guy who was saying, ‘oh, the Fertittas are idiots, they’re losing ‘oodles of money in this,’ now he’s crying ‘anti-trust’ and he’s copying everything we do? You weren’t smart enough to do it, Bob.”

The most telling and peculiar response, however, was to a question Ariel asked Dana towards the end about ‘the government’ investigating the UFC. If you aren’t a hardcore follower of the sport, you would have no idea what Ariel is alluding to (if you are a casual MMA fan). He’s alluding to the reports by MiddleEasy.com about the FTC investigating Zuffa, LLC for anti-trust matters reportedly regarding Xyience, PRIDE, and other business dealings.

Dana channels his inner Vince McMahon in response to this question.

“I don’t think it’s just boxing people, I think people are out there poking around. Let me tell you what, there’s a lot of people because this thing has been so successful, there’s a lot of people out there who, uh… who come after us and are taking shots at us and… the reality is, we took something that was absolutely dead and turned it around and turned it into this and it was done by investing a ton of money and the Fertittas actually having the balls to do it and to stay behind this thing when it didn’t look like it was going to turn around. And all these people now that are taking shots at us and coming after us and doing what they’re doing are the people who were laughing at us 9, 10 years ago, you know? We’re the best at what we do, we’ve changed the fight business forever, we’ve revolutionized it, and, you know, all these other guys that weren’t smart enough to do it and didn’t see it want to cry about it now.”

Not exactly a flat-out denial. I was waiting for Dana to go into 100% Vince mode circa early 1990s when the Feds went after him over steroids and how “he beat the Federal Government.”

On an extra side note, the legal battle between Zuffa and Ken Pavia progresses.

Topics: Canada, MMA, Media, UFC, Zach Arnold | 48 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

48 Responses to “Dana White excoriates Bob Arum, Gary Shaw, and Vancouver UFC 131 judges”

  1. Zheroen says:

    What is this “free cable” of which Dana is speaking, and how does one go about obtaining it? My subscription rates seem to go higher and higher. Also, $10 extra for an entire month for Showtime vs. $45 for a 3-hour UFC PPV isn’t exactly highway robbery in comparison.

    • Mr.roadblock says:

      Where do you get $10 Showtime? I shell out $27 a month to DirecTV for HBO + Showtime.

      • Zheroen says:

        Insight Communications in the midwest. I actually just double-checked my bill, and it was $12…my bad.

        • mr. roadblock says:

          It’s all good. I wanted to know so I could complain to DirecTV. Sometimes if you complain enough with them they’re nice to you. I pay $13 for Sho and $14 for HBO.

    • Steve4192 says:

      He means basic cable. There is no incremental cost for watching the UFC on basic cable beyond the cost of cable itself. Also, let’s not forget that the UFC does about a dozen prelim shows on Spike per year and offer a ton of free fights on facebook/youtube (unless you want to bitch about the cost of your ISP).

      Dana is right. Shaw’s statement was idiotic.

  2. Nottheface says:

    I think what Shaw was discussing was more the idea that for the $150 you now spend to see a years wort of Strikeforce cards headlined by Fedor, Overeem, Diaz, Melendez, and Hendo (plus boxing, original programming, and softcore porn) you’ll now get 3 ppvs. Or do you foresee the UFC putting a Overeem vs Bigfoot bout on G4?

  3. Dave says:

    There is no reason to act like Gary Shaw is entirely wrong.

    UFC has run four cards in as many weeks, three of which cost money, none of which even came up on my radar to shell out money to watch. If you are a hardcore completist being a UFC fan will make you broke.

    • RossenSearchTeam says:

      There are too many.

      I guarentee it will eventually come to a head.

      But Zuffa is doing a proper job of riding till the wheels come off.

      Not Too fast, Not too slow.

      Thats the trick.

      Personally, I’m looking forward to the fallout and undertow.

  4. RossenSearchTeam says:

    “…and I get pissed off because these guys are hurting the fighters.”

    As much as dana is characterized as a selfish scamp, I really believe that he loves and admires the guys.

    He’s a functional fanboy, almost to a fault.

  5. 45 Huddle says:

    How is Gary Shaw right?

    The UFC has never had any real competition in America ever. And their only international competition was basically gone by the end of 2006 (Pride).

    And yet from 2005 to present day, the UFC has:

    1) Increased fighter pay

    2) Increased the number of fighters on their roster.

    3) Increased medical benefits.

    4) Paid out additional bonuses to fighters not in their contracts.

    5) Expanded the sport internationally to potentially give more markets to create revenues.

    6) Expanded the number of weight classes they used from 4 to now about to be 8.

    The list goes on and on.

    The last 6 years of history have shown that the UFC’s dominance has BENEFITTED the fighters 10 times more then it has hurt them.

    Perhaps from a guy like Gary Shaw’s perspective…. Who doesn’t treat his fighters properly, thinks that if he was in that position he would put the squeeze to the fighters.

    But White and Fertitta have had ultimate power for years…. And things have never gotten bad for the fighters.

  6. Phil says:

    What is the point in having competition to make the salaries go up if the competition is going to ultimately fail and go away?

    People love to mention supply and demand when it comes to salaries, but shouldn’t it be obvious to everyone by now that there isn’t the demand necessary to support non-UFC mma?

  7. mr. roadblock says:

    If Bob Arum wants to talk about anti-trust why doesn’t he get real and talk about how he only books Manny against guys he controls. Don’t diss the UFC and then set Manny up in creampuff fights like the current Shane Mosley and JMM at 10 pounds higher than he’s ever won a fight at.

    Saying UFC and anti-trust is ridiculous. UFC isn’t doing anything to block the option from TV or having a 30 different owners collude to drive down wages. It’s tough to make money in MMA. That’s why so many companies hit the scene then go under.

    Gary Shaw can shut his fat trap too. His match making has hit the skids the last couple of years. Showtime gives him carte blance with boxing. He had a tremendous run from ‘04-’08 with boxing. But he’s put on stinkers the last year and a half to two years.

    In fact Arum put on Showtimes best fight in years with Rios vs Acosta. And second best with Juan Ma vs Salido. Though he should have put Juan Ma in with Gamboa and let us see that fight.

    Shaw wants to talk value? I was thinking about cancelling Showtime and saving $13/month before Arum brought fights over there.

  8. jack says:

    I know its off-topic but since you brought it up…this whole arum/pacquiao criticism that I hear is ridiculous..

    Guys pacquiao controls?? Mayweather just fought the exact same two guys and I didnt hear the amount of criticism I have for the pacquaio matchups.

    Pacquaio beat mosley 10X worse than Mayweather did, and in fact Mayweather was rocked by Mosley. He also never hurt or dropped mosley, and mosley didnt try to quit that fight (as he did against Pacquiao)…

    I dont love the marquez fight but its the biggest money-maker out there. Should he be fighting sergio martinez? or a little-known welterweight that wont generate any PPV buys? You cant blame Arum and pacquaio for trying to make money and take fights that are worth their while.

    • mr. roadblock says:

      You misunderstood me. I’m talking about guys ARUM controls.

      Manny’s last 5 fights have been Cotto, Clottey, Margarito, Mosley and the upcoming Juam Manuel Marquez III.

      Cotto and Margarito were good matchups. I have zero problem with them.

      The other three fights were setup so Bob Arum doesn’t have to share money with anyone other than Manny Pacquiao.

      Bob Arum isn’t doing what’s best for boxing or the fans. He doesn’t give a flying F— about either of those two things. He just wants more cash. That’s fine. It’s a free market in the fight game. But don’t turn around and criticize the way UFC does business.

      • Alan Conceicao says:

        I’m not going to get upset at Arum for signing Marquez for a huge sum of money when his promotional contract came up with GBP. Same thing happened with Mosley, actually. Ultimately there’s no one else that there’s any interest in seeing a fight against Pacquiao, particularly under the Golden Boy banner (the only real “competitor”). He made deals happen with promotional free agents – its certainly different than buying out your competitor in my mind.

        • edub says:

          Victor Ortiz would do just fine. The interest you speak of is the boxing audience that was there prior to PACMAN MANIA (and half of them scoff at it as being a huge mismatch because of the weight today). Not the current version who could sell a million buys fighting Jan Zaveck.

          They’re all different versions of evil in the fight business. While Dana and the Fertitas make more off their stars than Arum does (by a small amount), Arum routinely sets up his fighters with soft competition, hold fighters hostage who want to get better competition, involves himself in terribly inappropriate behavior with athletic commissions and sanctioning bodies.

          Let’s not kid ourselves, if Top Rank (Arum), Shaw, or GBP (Oscar) could have got the deal Zuffa did they would have jumped at it in a heartbeat.

  9. jack says:

    One more thing…45Huddle is wrong. Period.

    More competition among promoters IS better for fighters. Thats a fact.

    Citing the fact that fighter purses went in the UFC over the years means nothing. The purses should have gone up. But are the fighters earning what they truly deserve in terms of what they actually bring to the table, and the PPV buys that their name recognition earns? Absolutely not.

    UFC (and thereby 45Huddle) claims that their promotional skills and the UFC name/brand are what makes people buy PPVs. Looking at the past few years of UFC PPVs unequivically disproves that theory. The big name fighters are the ones that drive the PPV buys…not the UFC brand. Period. Sure, the UFC promotes them, but ultimately a PPV gets a million+ buys because of who is fighting..not because of the UFC name.

    With more promotions (that arent owned by UFC) the fighters would have leverage to demand more (rightful) money. Thats also a fact.

    45Huddle likes to deny the realities of the fight business because in his mind, regardless of logic, the UFC is always right…

    • 45 Huddle says:

      Your comment doesn’t jive with reality. It sounds nice. I can see how somebody can come to your conclusion. But history has shown your perception of reality is flat out wrong.

      More competition does not bring up salaries. It never did for 5 years with the IFL, Affliction, WFA, and Strikeforce.

      All those high salaries put companies out of business. There isn’t a market for multiple big time MMA companies. And history ha proven it.

      Fighters want leverage? Start a union. That is their leverage.

      All competition does is fragment the sport and make investors lose millions.

      • The Gaijin says:

        Uh…but you’re neglecting to mention that the fact that there were other organizations that existed as quasi-competitors(e.g. PRIDE, BoDog, IFL, WFA, Affliction, Strikeforce) was most likely a big reason that the salaries in the UFC went up as quickly as they did.

        It’s all nice and well to point out that fighter salaries have risen in the UFC, but you’re ignoring that they were in (probably a pretty big) part due to UFC being forced to “share more of the pie” with fighters because other organizations were offering big(ger) money (despite being unsustainable to their business). I really doubt they’d have shelled out some of the long-term, bigger money contracts that they’ve inked if they weren’t worried someone might try to steal a fighter(s) that could have hurt UFC’s business – too bad for their competitors they picked all the wrong guys (Lindland, Arlovski, Sylvia, Henderson, Fedor).

        • 45 Huddle says:

          This is the same UFC who pays out more then fighters are required to he paid because they either enjoyed the fight or feel they got the bad end of a decision.

          Pay was increased because White and Fertitta are fans of the sport and wanted to compensate fighters for it.

          Once again, years of history to back this up.

          And there is no competition today and those practices are still going on.

        • The Gaijin says:

          “Years of history back this up.”

          Years of history of trying (and succeding) at thwarting upstarts and “competitors”. You’re deluding yourself if you think this isn’t the case, look at the NBA/ABA or WHA/NHL as other examples of this, without those “competitor leagues” salaries would NOT have rocketed up like they did (and have in the UFC’s case).

          There’s a litany of reasons why the UFC structures their contracts the way they have, including these “locker room” bonuses. To make negotiations very heavily slanted towards themselves come the time.

          And Hughes and Couture and maybe a few more fighters were given huge raises at one point when there wasn’t even negotiations coming around.

          Zuffa had the money to bump up pay for the top tier guys and decided to.

          And don’t tell me it was because of competition. Hughes was a zero percentage flight risk. And Couture had already been through that contract war and was no threat to try it again.”

          They signed a number of long-term deals with guys like Hughes, Couture, Ortiz, Franklin, Lesnar, GSP, BJ, etc. And you’re just flat out making shit up now – all these guys had varying lengths of contracts when they re-signed, and for the most part (e.g. not BJ/GSP/Brock) guys that without competitors NEVER would have gotten the sweatheart packages they did if they weren’t worried about them going over to “give a rub” to other orgs fighters or have a final run in another org. This was done for both cost certainty and long-term strategy.

          Hughes could have definitely been a flight risk b/c he’s never getting another WW title shot in the UFC, but they saw the utility in paying him off and giving him fights with Serra, Renzo, Almeida (Renzo’s boy)and BJ on the retirement circuit rather than risking him going to Strikeforce or elsewhere. Same with Couture, I’m sure he could have easily walked into a lucrative and somewhat buzz worthy fight with Fedor (albeit with less lustre after Brock beat him) and they didn’t want that happening.

          That’s complete b.s. that they just felt the need to “bump pay up for the top tier guys, b/c they could” and not to lock-up all name value guys that weren’t champs that might walk and give legitimacy to another league. Your recollections are coming through some extremely rose-colored glasses that, of course, neatly fit into your view.

  10. jack says:

    45Huddle…you are completely misunderstanding the point.

    This is not about the average fighter increasing his salary…obviously I’m not talking about that level of fighter when i’m discussing a million+ PPV buys.

    The average fighter salary is fine in MMA, I’m talking about the big boys making what they deserve, as they are the ones driving the big PPV numbers.

    And the fact of the matter is that competition DID result in the increase in salaries for many top fighters. Just ask Randy Couture, Andrei Arlovski, and Dan Henderson. All three of those guys used the competition to drive up their salaries (using Afflication (x2) and Strikeforce, respectively)..

    • 45 Huddle says:

      And like I said…. A union…. Not a fractured sport is the answer to making those changes.

      It means all the best in one organization so they all fight each other…. But still with increased pay.

      The more organization route is a proven failure.

      • 45 Huddle says:

        And Hughes and Couture and maybe a few more fighters were given huge raises at one point when there wasn’t even negotiations coming around.

        Zuffa had the money to bump up pay for the top tier guys and decided to.

        And don’t tell me it was because of competition. Hughes was a zero percentage flight risk. And Couture had already been through that contract war and was no threat to try it again.

        Zuffa has diligently done right by their fighters for years.

        This idea that all of a sudden no competition is around and now the top fighters won’t get what they are worth is crazy talk with absolutely no basis.

  11. jack says:

    The top fighters STILL are not being paid what they deserve.

    The fighters are the ones risking life and limb to put on fights…not Zuffa…so they should be making the majority of the money…like in boxing, where the top fighters earn what they deservce.

    You act like Zuffa should get a prize for actually paying their fighters and increasing their pay over time when they prove to be money-making assets. What exactly is so impressive to you about this?

    I would take your opinion much more seriously if you werent a UFC fanboy mark who has never EVER expressed any opinion counter to the UFC and merely tows the UFC party line, kissing their asses and blindly complimenting EVERY decision they make.

    It is a VERY basic principle in business that competition is healthy for business and critical for improving the environment for customers and employees.

    The idea that competition will improve the salaries of top fighters is in fact not baseless, and I just proved it above. All you are doing is countering that UFC increased some fighters salaries. That in no way refutes anything I said, and certainly does not disprove that competition is good for workers. You are just blinded by the UFC testicles hovering over your mouth..

    • cutch says:

      That would be true if they were draws on their own, Fedor was the best fighter on the planet for years and has only been reasonably succesfull.

      Affliction’s buy rates are proof of this (Edgar-Maynard easily out drew their buys, largely because of the UFC brand) and while good, it’s not like Strikeforce’s ratings were amazing and I have no doubt if the UFC wanted to put on a loaded show on CBS or Showtime it would much better.

      • edub says:

        What Cutch said.

        The fighters aren’t making the boxing type money because they are not the draw. The UFC brand name is the draw.(and as a side not, why do we want mixed martial artists to make the type of money Pacquiao and Mayweather make?)

        • Chuck says:

          Why shouldn’t the top MMA stars make the Pacquiao and Mayweather money? What’s so wrong about that? I highly doubt UFC’s business would topple because of the increased wages. The only threat there is ticket prices would probably go up a little.

        • edub says:

          Because the more money comes up, the less people fight per year, and the more the UFC (and by extension MMA) becomes boxing. Nobody else in Top Rank is making half of what Pacquiao averages per fight.

          The more money comes in the less people will have to fight the best competition.

        • Chuck says:

          There’s no evidence to support that. Most of the top boxers fight twice a year on average. You know how many times a year most of the top MMA fighters fight per year? Twice on average. Exact same. Just check out fighter records (Manny Pacquiao and the Klitschkos on the boxing front, GSP and Anderson Silva on the MMA front). It’s not just a money thing. The higher up on the food chain someone is, the less they perform. Even the top wrestlers in WWE and TNA do less house shows and international dates than the average mid-carder. Some of them at least (just look at The Undertaker, HHH, Rey Misterio, Sting etc. John Cena and Kurt Angle are exceptions. Angle might not be an exception for long though).

          As for your second point……again that is more just a “top fighters can do what they want” bullshit because they are on top. They can afford to pick-and-choose who they fight. And politics. Especially politics. And the fact that not all of the top boxers are under one promotional umbrella. It’s all spread out amongst Top Rank, Don King, Golden Boy, Universum, Lou Dibella, etc. The UFC has about 95% of the best fighters out there (including Strikeforce) and can make the best fights. This all goes back to politics of course. Fighters making big money is a small problem at best.

          Again, the only major issue with inflated fighter salaries is inflated ticket prices. Just check out Yankee stadium tickets….

        • edub says:

          You are correct about Manny, but not about the Klitschko’s. I don’t even have to check Wlady’s record to see that he only fought three times in the past 2 years. Vitali has fought a couple more, but they were against guys like Albert Sosnowski and Shannon Briggs (however he did at least take on Odlanier Solis, who is a credible fighter, just was unlucky with the knee injury).

          I guess I should have been more pointed in speaking directly about the fighters in question. They do fight a similar amount of times, but when they get upwards of 10 mill to fight tomato cans, they will do it sometimes. Just like Manny fighting Mosely and Marquez back to back.

          I just think if we see fighters in mma start to get huge wages by competition from rival promoters, it will send our sport away from the best fighting the best (which happens more often than not now).

        • Wlad fought twice in 2005, twice in 06, twice in 2007, three times in 2008, once in 2009, and twice last year. He has one year out of the last 6 where he only fought once.

          The sport isn’t paying guys like that and we’re still getting match making that is anything but the best vs. the best. Look at Evans/Davis and Rampage/Hammill for recent examples. Mystery cancellations and illnesses have increased dramatically over the last 6 months and no one can seem to figure out why when its really obvious.

        • edub says:

          Or look at GSP vs. anybody except Dan Hardy from the last 3 years. BJ Penn’s defense against a Frankie Edgar who could have been avoided. Frankie Edgar’s title defense against Gray Maynard. Anderson Silva’s title defenses against Chael, Yushin, Marquardt, Rich 2x, Belfort, or Maia. Brock Lesnar vs. Shane Carwin, Frank Mir, and Cain Velasquez. Junior Dos Santos vs. Shane Carwin…the list really goes on and on. But of course you knew that, that’s why you only brought up two fights(or announcements) from the last three months.

          And Rampage doesn’t make a mil to show, and TV rights to fight Matt Hamill like Vitali did to fight Albert Sosnowski or Wlad did to fight Samuel Peter so I don’t know why you even wrote that down.

          “Wlad fought twice in 2005, twice in 06, twice in 2007, three times in 2008, once in 2009, and twice last year. He has one year out of the last 6 where he only fought once.”

          And…. none so far this year.

        • Chuck says:

          Wlad is fighting David Haye next month. After that (as long as he wins, or if he loses, as long as he’s healthy and not hurt) will have time to fight a second time this year. Hopefully….

        • Alan Conceicao says:

          Those are recent and perfectly valid examples. And no way in hell is Maia/Silva a sterling example of the UFC matching the best versus the best. Certainly they do it and certainly they don’t depending on the situation. Excuses that it is convenient to do so don’t count any more in MMA than they do in boxing.

          As for catching me that Wladimir will only fight once over the first 7 months of the year – well, I’m glad to know that’s what you consider a calendar year! Thanks for playing.

        • edub says:

          Yes there are examples in MMA. Just a hell of a lot more in boxing. In boxing you have Sergio Martinez stripped of a belt to put on a platter for Jr Chavez. In boxing you have Lucian Bute higher in some rankings than Carl Froch. In boxing you have Yuriorkis Gamboa and JuanMa under the same promoter and were #1 and 2 for roughly two years in the same weight class, and never fight. In boxing you have Bernard Hopkins avoid fighting Chad Dawson and Glen Johnson for years until he sees an easy target in Jean Pascal. In boxing you have Saul Alvarez with a legitimate title at 154 lbs by beating a natural 147 lber (with no world title)…. these are just off the top of my head. We can go check the numbers, and the amount of undeserving titlists and challengers in boxing will dwarf MMA’s. The excuses in boxing are sometimes similar to MMA? But acting like both doing it means both are on the same footing isn’t realistic.

          You said he had one year out of the last 6 where he fought once. You conveniently didn’t mention this year which is half over and he still hasn’t competed.

          We can keep playing for as long as you’d like.

        • Are you going to refer to the actions of sanctioning bodies or to matchmaking by promoters and networks? They’re two different things. Most of these examples make me laugh my ass off: Either JuanMa or Gamboa is the champ in that division. Hopkins waited for a “weak” opponent in the popular Jean Pascal after he beat Dawson? LOL. Complaining about Saul Alvarez’s title belt or *INSERT FIGHTER HERE* being stripped is like complaining about Zuffa promoting numerous sets of title belts under the same promotional roof.

          Whatever, dude. I conveniently left out this year, which half of which still exists of! As he fights his biggest name opponent…ever! LOL, really? Get back to me in 6 months if he A) beats Haye B) doesn’t fight someone else after beating Haye. Of course, if it he doesn’t fight due to injury or something (which is why he didn’t fight Eddie Chambers in December 2009), that doesn’t matter. It only matters when guys like Brock Lesnar get sick or hurt.

        • I meant “neither” as to the champ at featherweight, who is Chris John.

        • edub says:

          No you’re right Alan, you’re right.

          John is the “real” FW champ. Hopkins didn’t duck Dawson or Johnson. Saul Alvarez getting handed the belt for fighting Matthew Hatton is the same thing as Brock Lesnar’s life long disease flaring up again. Jon Jones is ducking Rashad Evans it’s not like he fought twice in the last 6 months against a top ten and best LHW in the world. Arum has never benefited from a close relationship with the WBA or WBC.

          I’m glad you could educate me.

        • Hopkins didn’t “duck” Glen Johnson. Johnson brought zero to the table for that fight. Same with Dawson. Pascal became the linear light heavyweight champ by BEATING DAWSON and also had people who would buy tickets to see him fight. Ergo, Hopkins came back. Now he’ll probably end up fighting Dawson before the year is out.

          No one is saying that boxing belts being given out is the same as illness or injury, but its sure as fuck the same thing as MMA belts being given out. And yeah – Jones won some meaningful fights, then ducked the top contender. Isn’t that what you accuse Hopkins of doing after beating the middleweight champion of the world?

        • edub says:

          Because he didn’t duck anybody. Your example is a guy fighting twice in a two month period, and not wanting to fight again 5 months later. That’s an unintelligent opinion you are producing strictly because it is one of the only examples of a guy in the UFC not fighting the top contender in the past 2 or 3 years (The others being HWs not fighting Fedor, Anderson taking on Cote, Maia and Leites; and Penn fighting Edgar) . Where in boxing I could point to about 100 over the same time frame.

          Glen Johnson was the #2 LHW in the world after KOing Griffin and Moore. Hopkins had the opportunity to fight him, and for one he called him out, and two he was the #2 person in the division. He didn’t, and instead waited a year to fight Joey Calzaghe. This was after fighting a blown up middleweight in Winky Wright. After that Dawson and Johnson fought in a title eliminator which Dawson won. At the same time Hopkins was #2 in the world still, and coming off an upset over Kelly Pavlik (another blown up MW). The Ring and one of the trinkets tried to put together a unification fight of 175 between Hopkins and Dawson because Calzaghe retired following his blow out of RJJ. Hopkins passed and instead fought Journeyman Ornelas at Cruiserweight. He ducked both.

        • edub says:

          First off, no it was at LHW not at MW. Second, No that’s not the same thing at all. Jones fought twice in a two month period of time. He didn’t want to fight 5 months later. Rashad didn’t want to wait for September to make the fight so he kept the date where they had originally agreed to fight. Bernard took years in between fights, and instead of fighting the #2 ranked Johnson after beating Wright fought Calzaghe. A couple years later after he beat Pavlik he was again in line for a shot at the legitimate LHW title against Chad Dawson. Instead he took another year off, and went up against a Journeyman in Enrigue Ornelas, then the corpse of RJJ (who had just been knocked out in the first round).

          The instances of belts being given out in MMA can be compared to boxing; what you keep avoiding is the sheer amount of time it happens in boxing is probably 10x more than it happens in just the UFC. It’s like comparing a grape to a watermelon.

  12. RossenSearchTeam says:

    Hmmm, ya think (and I’m being a naughty pessimeist here) that the wonky judging is a reaction/demonstration against having monitor stuck in front of them?

    IE: “Are you telling me that I dont know what I’m doing?!”

    (Which is pretty much the deal.)

    If I was a paranoid person, I might suspect that the boxing judges are a union.
    Just like politicians, just like the Mob, Just like judges and lawyers, just like everybody else…

    But thats only paranoid.

    The Judges are awesome guys who know alot and care about MMA!

  13. Nepal says:

    The following is from FightLinker.

    “Update on the shitty judging: Nelson Hamilton was the one who scored the Mark Munoz fight 30-27. Dave Hagen gave the Nunes / Florian fight to Florian 30-27. Hagen also gave all three rounds of Omigawa / Elkins to Elkins.”

    • edub says:

      Thank you for posting that. Nelson Hamilton is kind of surprising, he’s usually pretty good (and he got the winner right anyway at least). Dave Hagen I will now remember for a while.

      Dave Hagen.

      • The Gaijin says:

        Am I dreaming or hasn’t Nelson Hamilton handed in a lot of crap scorecards in recent memory?

        Machida vs Shogun I: 48-47 Machida
        Leonard Garcia vs Korean Zombie: 29-28 Garcia
        Shields vs Kampman: 30-27 Shields
        Rampage vs Machida: 29-28 Rampage
        Munoz vs Maia: 30-27 Munoz.

        At least you could defend the Machida and Rampage decisions/scores if you tried.

        • edub says:

          Wow. When you put it like that, he shouldn’t be judging MMA fights at the highest levels.

        • The Gaijin says:

          Actually I misread the Rampage vs. Machida – I believe he was the dissenting judge (gave the nod to Lyoto). And to backtrack a little bit on Nelson, he was the only one who gave Griffin the nod (30-27) in the bizarre Nik Lentz SD win.

          http://www.mmadecisions.com/index.jsp

          Here’s a pretty cool site that you can see each judge and their decisions and it highlights any fights they were the “dissenting” judge in a SD. It’s also great for looking at scorecards from guys like Douglas Crosby!

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