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Should MMA adopt a figure skating-style judging panel system?
By Zach Arnold | June 16, 2010
I had to make that the headline because it’s a part of the discussion brought up by the Pro MMA radio team recently in regards to a debate about just how awful the judging is these days in Mixed Martial Arts.
Every time I bring this topic up, I always say that I have no magical solution to fix the problem and the response to this comment usually consists of “UFC doesn’t mind the screw jobs, it helps their matchmaking out” and an example pointed to is the rematch between Mauricio Shogun and Lyoto Machida.
I don’t say this as a defense of the awful judging in Mixed Martial Arts right now, but I will say that bad officiating is a huge problem in all the major sports now. It’s especially bad in Major League Baseball and has gotten to the point where the commission has appointed hard ass Frank Robinson to keep tabs on out-of-control umpires. In the NFL, there’s about one controversy every week with someone like a Jeff Triplett type figure. In the NBA, we all know about Tim Donaghy and Joey Crawford. I could go on and on about this topic all day long (and sports talk radio usually does, anyways).
The passage you’re about to read continues multiple arguments and layers to each one. Take note of the argument about monitors, which is an argument that Joe Rogan has brought up before. Take note about a figure skating-style panel system where you have at least five judges and you throw out the top and the bottom score.
But there’s one argument by Larry Pepe and Neil Davidson that is unwittingly made and I want you to read the passage and try to spot it… It’s like the elephant in the room that people don’t want to acknowledge or don’t realize that they are, in fact, acknowledging it.
LARRY PEPE: “Now on the judging issue, Neil… something has to be done. I mean, you know, (Tony) Weeks obviously come from a boxing background. I’m sure he’s capable of scoring stand-up fights and boxing matches but that’s not what MMA is and if you watch that fight where (Evan) Dunham puts on a grappling clinic against (Tyson) Griffin for the second and third controls him from the minute they hit the ground to the end of the rounds, goes for submission attempts and Griffin does NOTHING. If you’re scoring one of those rounds, like it just screams to me a) that he should not judging MMA but more importantly, b) what does MMA have to do to start weeding out judges who clearly don’t understand what’s going on? I would suggest, like in other sports, that there has to be some type of accountability system put in place. I think that in a case like this, he should have to go into the commission’s office, he should have to watch that fight with them and explain how he scored those rounds and why and then I think some body or group has to sit down and say, ‘you know what, based on what we saw, based on his explanations, this person should not be you know scoring MMA because clearly they don’t get it’ and I think in MMA it’s more critical than boxing because you don’t have 12 to 15 rounds, you usually have 3 so if you blow one round like in this case you get the wrong guy winning the fight and for the athletes, which is what we should be focused on, they get two or three loses in a row and they’re done. So, the room for error is so much less and yet all we keep saying is, ‘don’t let it go to the judges,’ that’s like saying ‘don’t get sick because you can’t find a competent doctor.’ The answer is not ‘don’t let it go to the judges,’ the answer is what do we need to do to get better judges so that decisions like this aren’t at a risk for a guy like Evan Dunham?”
NEIL DAVIDSON: “Well, you make good points there, Larry. I’m hoping that some degree of accountability, I’m hoping some of that already exists, I’m not sure exactly what kind of accountability the judges have but I think one thing that’s going to happen as the sports get older, you will see people who grew up with it becoming judges. It was interesting that Bill Mahood was one of the judges on Saturday night. Of course, he’s a veteran fighter who is now obviously got into judging so I think that’s the kind of people that will help improve the standards ringside but I think commissions have to do something to weed out judges who are clearly not making the grade and I think we’ll also see a new breed of people coming through who do know the sport and I think that will help but you know it’s still hard to… it’s hard to, these are humans, so it’s subjective. We had another issue in the cage with a referee stopping a fight in the (Mac) Danzig thing which seemed very unfortunate and in the heat of the moment that happened…. … At that stage, I actually wished that they had some kind of replay or commission restarted the fight but that was another example of where something went awry, so young sport that’s still figuring things out but accountability and better judges are key.”
LARRY PEPE: “Yeah, I think it’s key and I think the common thread, Neil, you bring up the Lavigne situation, I bring up the Weeks situation… the common thread usually when something goes wrong is a lack of understanding for the ground game. That’s the common thread because Joe Rogan is screaming, ‘he can’t possibly be out because his neck is exposed.’ If Yves Lavigne was well-versed in jiu-jitsu, he doesn’t make that call. If Tony Weeks knew anything at all about the ground game, he doesn’t make that call and I think the problem is that we have too many people in the judge and referee positions who really come from boxing so they understand the stand-up, they don’t understand the ground and I think when we have judges that make public statements like Cecil Peoples did after (Lyoto) Machida/(Shogun) Rua that leg kicks don’t win fights. Really? Ask Pat Barry’s last three opponents. Ask Urijah Faber against Jose Aldo. I mean, it demonstrates, I don’t have anything against any of these people personally, but this isn’t ‘I want to be friends with them,’ this is ‘I want the athletes to be protected and given every chance to fight fairly and safely in the cage’ and then I want the people who are scoring them and affecting their futures and their family’s financial status and everything else to do it in a way that’s consistent with what MMA is and I think we’re seeing too many examples… We saw it a couple of weeks ago with (Rogerio) Nogeuira and Jason Brilz. We’re seeing example after example and, yes we’re a young sport, but I think we’re at the point that more needs to be done to fix this issue because it’s becoming a glaring weak point in an otherwise fantastic sport.”
NEIL DAVIDSON: “I think you’re right in that in terms of we’re seeing more examples of that, in the Nogueira/Brilz decision you raise was a good one. Most people were shocked by that one and thought Brilz [won]. The one thing I will say in defense of Yves Lavigne is that I’m not sure he was able, I think he was being shielded from that other side of the neck which was free and when he did raise Danzig’s arm it did seem limp, it wasn’t, it didn’t seem to offer any resistance so he was trying to make the decision. He thought the guy was out and he was looking after the safety of the fighter. I’m sure Danzig will be taken care of and they’ll have a rematch so that’s a slightly different situation but I think we’re at a point now with the scoring that we’ve had a body of these contentious decisions now and each time one comes up they’re going to be more questions raised and it’s going to create a bigger stink and something will have to be done.”
LARRY PEPE: “Yeah and Neil, you’re point to Yves, is well-taken. I’m less incensed about Yves because you always err on protecting the fighter. In that situation like you, I think there should be a mechanism where that fight can be re-started. I think when a mistake like that is made, he’s done it before Yves… we saw it I believe in the Aaron Riley fight with Shane Nelson and they had to rematch that fight as well because he stopped that early. I think in that situation there should be a mechanism where by the referee with the opportunity of instant replay can say, ‘you know what? It shouldn’t have been stopped, we’re going to restart the fight,’ because fighter safety comes first. When it comes to the Weeks thing, listen, I may be screaming you know and I may be in the minority, but that just incenses me to no end because there’s just no way that I can watch the second or the third round and come up with any argument for Tyson Griffin. So when I see that, when I hear that leg kicks don’t win fights from a judge who judges all the time, I sit there and say, ‘c’mon, isn’t it time, haven’t we grown enough that we deserve better?’ ”
NEIL DAVIDSON: “Yeah, I think you’re right… the problem is that it is subjective, you know, you just have to look at figure skating the way they’ve changed the scoring, adding judges, throwing out the bottom score, the top score, things like that, so other sports have gone through it and MMA is a tough sport to judge but I think there has to be more education, more accountability.”
LARRY PEPE: “Well, how about we have five judges and throw out the high and the low somehow? I don’t know. We need to do something. We need to get better judges. They need to have monitors. The fact that they don’t have monitors and somehow from 40 feet away you’re trying to see what somebody’s doing on the ground without a monitor is insane. You and I cover these events, Neil… what percentage of the event do you end up watching the guys versus looking on the screen because you can’t see what’s happening?”
NEIL DAVIDSON: “It’s true. People say you must have a great seat in press row and it is a great seat, but there’s a lot of obstacles in front of you and when you see those judges on TV, they’re doing a lot of peering trying to see things and also if you ever watch Dana White, he never watches the fight.”
LARRY PEPE: “Exactly!”
NEIL DAVIDSON: “He’s always buried with his head looking at the television so I think that’s a good point.”
LARRY PEPE: “Yep, and Dana’s got the best seat in the house and Joe Rogan and Mike Goldberg whose responsibility is to call the fight for a million people or five million people watching around the world, they have monitors! So the only guys that don’t have monitors are the guys determining the outcome of the fight!”
I’ll give you a cookie if you answer what the proverbial elephant in the room is here…
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 24 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
“So the only guys that don’t have monitors are the guys determining the outcome of the fight!”
Commonsense is the phrase that comes to mind when I hear this. Really what the fuck is wrong with the athletic commissions.
Remember when Dana White had on the Mayweather/Hatton fight on his monitor during a UFC? I love how everyone assumes that UFC people are always watching fights on the monitor.
First of all… LOL!!! I hadn’t heard of that.
Second of all… well, technically, he WAS watching a fight ; )
Yes they should. And I think a 5 or 7 judge panel would elp as well.
There are a few:
“I think there has to be more education, more accountability.”
“all we keep saying is, ‘don’t let it go to the judges,’ that’s like saying ‘don’t get sick because you can’t find a competent doctor.’ The answer is not ‘don’t let it go to the judges,’ the answer is what do we need to do to get better judges so that decisions like this aren’t at a risk”
“the common thread usually when something goes wrong is a lack of understanding for the ground game. ”
“I’m sure he’s capable of scoring stand-up fights and boxing matches but that’s not what MMA is” -is probably the elephant sized one
“So the only guys that don’t have monitors are the guys determining the outcome of the fight!”
here it is!
Figure Skating is now point skating. So what people in favor of that system are arguing for is point fighting.
What do you think GSP, Fitch and Kos would do when they knew they were up 5 or 7 points in a fight? SNOOZEFEST!!!!
The other thing where Figure Skating is not analogous is that there is a ceiling to the points you can get and mistakes are deducted from that. The judges have the routine in advance and know if the skaters hit their marks or not. You don’t know what’s going to happen in an MMA fight. You can’t say oh well GSP went for a kick there and that was where he was supposed to do a takedown and then dry hump the guy -.75.
In regards to the Cecil Peoples and “leg kicks don’t win fights” comment – I have a friend who is a 3rd degree Shotokan karate black belt and he says the exact same thing. He thinks leg kicks are low impact strikes that are easy to perform, and don’t cause much in the way of damage.
Interestingly enough, Peoples also has a karate background. Perhaps in karate they do gentler leg kicks without the vicious Muay Thai “wind up”.
Cecil comes from a Karate background. Traditionally the leg kick is really a block or like a pawing jab to keep distance and set something else up. In Karate tournaments leg kicks don’t win fights. But MMA isn’t a Karate tournament.
Cecil Peoples is also flat out a plain old [expletive]. I’ve seen him on a number of occasions act like a total buffoon at fighters’ meetings. Especially on small shows when he’s giving out the rules he always says some tough guy remarks like, “If I tell you to stop and you ain’t stop I’ll knock you out in front of yo fans.”
I actually heard that moron say that (it’s a paraphrase what he said was even dumber I think he said momma at one point). You don’t act like that in front of guys who are nervous and trying to get out there and make a debut. Total dumbass.
I’m big on respecting my elders. But nobody from the 70’s-80’s point fighting days needs to act like they’re super bad. He’s not the only one I’ve seen/heard a million old guys do the same thing in the gym. Even in front of UFC champions. These dopes have no shame in their game.
BTW Zach, thanks very much for transcribing these interviews. I know it must take a lot of time, I personally won’t take the time to listen to them. Your efforts are really appreciated.
I’ve made this comment before here and I’ll make it again. Adding 5 judges will not help, you could have 11 judges and if they can’t see half the fight, then they are still getting it wrong. In fact statistically speaking adding more judges just adds a random element into the judging decision rather than any accuracy.
Kizer’s beef or rather his sound bite beef is:
I was paraphrasing but that was the gist of Keith’s argument. Obviously we can all see the idiocy of that statement but it was the best he could do to defend the status quo.
The judges need one monitor and it should be a ref-cam a la Strikeforce. The ref’s are constantly putting themselves in the best possible position (in theory anyway). That’s all the judges need in order to have a view of 95% of the fight rather than the current 50%.
Equally obviously, Larry nails it here.
The obvious question here is: What is the accountability at the commission? Do they have a mechanism like this in place? I guess the answer is no because if they did, they would be bleating to the world about what kind of great education the judges have to go through and what ongoing level of continued education they have to stay current. Their silence on this issue is telling and deafening.
I’m surprised that no one has spotted, yet, what I spotted in this long argument about improving officiating and judging.
Hint: It’s a classic argument that’s been recycled for years online.
Open scoring system?
If not. JUST TELL US!!!
We definitely need the outfits, and the music.
And monitors for the judges.
I dont know about the 5 and throw out 2 thing.
Sounds weird and elaborate and just as capable of squirilly tallies.
The best possible training and screening process for judges, monitors, and figure skating outfits IMO.
The new replay deal is a good step in the right direction.
Roadblock says it already: Points scoring is a stupid, stupid idea. And as I’ve said before: Amateur Boxing has 5 judges. Scoring is open and real time. Scoring is based on hard, unquestionable criteria. It is still screwed up. You are never, ever going to have a perfect system.
What you can do is continue to train judges and hope that they are unwilling to “do business” on behalf of promoters or managers in addition to being better educated about the sport. In the meantime, look, its the early days. Once upon a time, Wyatt Earp was a boxing referee. You aren’t always going to get the best guys at this stage.
Neil didn’t say anything to me on this, but I got what he was trying to say and it wasn’t necessary switching to a points system.
What he was trying to say with his figure skating system example is that let’s say you have five judges and they score a fight this way:
Fighter A 30-27
Fighter A 29-28
Fighter A 29-28
Fighter B 29-28
Fighter B 30-27
His notion is that if you increase the judges (say from 3 to 5), you can toss out the “high and low scores” (the 30-27s) and you’re left with 3 scores in the middle and that’s what you base the decision on.
When you pull a slot machine, your odds of winning do not increase with each pull. They stay the same, because each pull of the lever is a completely independent event. When you talk about increasing the number of judges at events rather than increasing the skill level of judging, you’re not doing anything to better the odds.
Re-read it and didn’t notice any elephants of any flavor. You can share your pearl of wisdom now.
When they are talking about how people at ringside can’t see through the cage to know what’s going on, it’s about as big of an inadvertent advertisement for the ring over the cage as you could get.
In many ways, what they said is what has been said about the pros of a ring and the issue of ‘sight lines’ that has been debated for years.
Just too many restarts.
Although as we was with Saku vs Ralek bad restarts even happen in cages…
Cage > Ring.
For MMA at least.
I dont care how well the nose bleed seats can
see anything if it means detracting from the
actual acts of the fighters.
Whats happening between the two fighters in clear view of the PPV camera should be the main concern before the live gate.
Tangling and restarting MMA for ropes makes a lesser actual fight IMO.
Improve the judges and their tools, dont dumb down the arena and the sport to make up for being lazy or unqualified.
So the elephant is ‘rings vs. cage’???
That is a very old and very tired argument that goes back years. You may be a proponent of rings but I’m quite sure that you recognize rings have as many ‘issues’ as a cage does.
Dang, I was hoping I really missed something meaty there…
We know each platform has flaws. The question is which platform has flaws that are the lesser of the two evils.
Given the fact that people have trouble seeing all of the action up-close through a cage at ringside… I’d say the ring provides a much easier platform the fans, judges, and commentators to do their job.
In the years PRIDE existed, nobody ever sat there at a show and said that they had trouble watching the show — including the judges.
Which one’s flaws are the lessor is indeed the big question. It is one that been debated seemingly forever without an answer.
However even in PRIDE, the judges can’t see ground fighting techniques if the backs of the fighters are towards the judges. A ref-cam would alleviate that problem and it would do so for either a cage or ring.
For sure the visibility/fan friendliness of the ring is unquestioned. The anti-ring proponents have their valid arguments too so the lessor of the 2 evils is still personal perspective.
[…] he doesn’t want them using monitors when they can. Larry Pepe of Pro MMA Radio explains why this is retarded. They need to have monitors. The fact that they don’t have monitors and somehow from 40 feet away […]