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Talk Radio: Is Chuck Liddell the best Light Heavyweight ever in Mixed Martial Arts?
By Zach Arnold | June 14, 2010
In the UFC 115 ads leading up to the Vancouver event to sell the PPV, UFC marketed Chuck Liddell as the best Light Heavyweight ever in the sport. Hyperbolic talk or legitimate fact? The Sherdog radio crew says Liddell’s the best right ever (right now) in history:
TJ DE SANTIS: “We’re talking about how Chuck (Liddell) changing his training camp, was more you know serious and focused on Mixed Martial Arts. Do you think that’s something that Chuck never really did throughout his career and if he didn’t, I mean how good could Chuck Liddell have been when he was at his prime? I mean he was still pretty much unstoppable but I mean are we talking the best 205-pound fighter of all-time if he was you know really you know taking the sport seriously like apparently he did for this fight?”
JORDAN BREEN: “At this moment in time, I would still call him the best Light Heavyweight ever.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “Sure.”
JORDAN BREEN: “He has the greatest bulk of Top 10 wins and impressive performances against notable guys from his era that we’ve seen. I do think that will change, I mean the UFC just has so many top Light Heavyweights at this point in time that if we get a guy now, if you know Shogun put together a reign like Liddell his resume would just look insane so I mean that’s another argument.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “But still I don’t think Chuck was ever almost as good as he could have been.”
JORDAN BREEN: “Yeah, well I mean, I think that’s not even something generalizable to Chuck. If we knew all of the kind of things we know about Mixed Martial Arts now, you know how the game’s changed, what it really means to, I mean think about this for a second… I think an e-mailer brought this up to me recently. Think about the kind of work we see guys like Georges St. Pierre and Kenny Florian do with John Chaimberg for instance, you know in terms of like strength & fitness. Do you remember when Billy Rush was considered like cutting edge for MMA fitness?”
TJ DE SANTIS: “I mean Billy Rush was the first sort of Genghis Khan of MMA like they call Greg Jackson. I mean, everyone looked at Billy Rush as this you know sort of Godsend about you know athletic performance and conditioning and dieting and nutrition. I mean, he was looked at as the first real you know guy that everyone heralded as the first sort of sports scientist guy.”
JORDAN BREEN: “And let’s be realistic about Billy Rush — he was a failed fighter who basically just kept guys on a stringent diet and had them do some plyometrics.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “And made his guys cut a tremendous amount of weight as well, I mean the way he had guys cut water weight to make weight was almost sickening.”
JORDAN BREEN: “So, basically, we’ve come, that’s like 2005. In five years, we’ve come an enormous amount of way when it comes to the knowledge and preparation that these guys have on a technical, you know right down to the mechanical minutia of how to perform moves down to sort of more broad spectrum, how to run a training camp, how you conduct yourself with training partners, how you peak for a fight, what you’re doing in terms of strength & conditioning, what’s kind of exercises, so… I don’t have a doubt if Chuck Liddell was 25, 26 years old now or we just took the sort of knowledge we have of Mixed Martial Arts now and brought it back to 2000, 2001, I definitely think Chuck Liddell would be a better fighter. But at the same time, so would virtually anyone in his era, we know that much more about Mixed Martial Arts now.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “That’s a good call.”
Even with the brutal knockout on Saturday night, I noticed something very curious amongst casual and semi-hardcore fans, both online and offline for this show. It’s something Jordan Breen noticed as well when he was moderating the ESPN web site chat for UFC 115 — there’s a large amount of people that still want to see Chuck Liddell fight and it doesn’t even have to be a ‘big’ fight, but there strangely seems to be a demand to see him still fight guys like Tito Ortiz. Now that UFC has all but closed the door on Chuck Liddell’s active fighting career for that organization, will we see Chuck put off retirement and perhaps fight elsewhere?
More on that angle from the Sherdog team…
TJ DE SANTIS: “Can he continue to fight, though, and still maintain that legacy as the sport’s best 205-pound fighter early in its existence?”
JORDAN BREEN: “It’s weird because I always wonder how guys who kind of, sort of faded right away as MMA blew up a bit will be received. This is something that comes in a bit more prominently when people discuss Fedor Emelianenko. I discussed this on my live chat not on Friday but the Friday before, somebody had asked I mean obviously earlier that day the news had broken that Fedor Emelianenko was interested in running for political office in Russia and so a lot of people were interested in what I thought and one thing that I said was I’m really curious how let’s say for instance Fedor Emelianenko fought Fabricio Werdum and Alistair Overeem and then called it a career and focused on politics and that’s just how it played out. I think there’s so many people now who are like if you take everyone now who watches Mixed Martial Arts, whether super-casually, casually, moderately, hardcore, super-hardcore, take all of them… what percentage of those people were there when he landed that overhand right on (Antonio Rodrigo) Nogueira at Yokohama Arena? How many people saw that whether I’m not talking there live but how many people saw that on PPV or downloaded it after?”
TJ DE SANTIS: “I’m saying less than 15% to be honest with you.”
JORDAN BREEN: “I mean how many people in the sport really remember what it felt like when he finally was going to fight (Mirko) Cro Cop and how exciting that moment was?”
TJ DE SANTIS: “It’s so hard because it’s something that I think you know you and I have been around, we were there, we were watching it, you know, it was just part of every day life to us but really I mean the majority of people that I actually talk to Jordan about Mixed Martial Arts really don’t even know that much about Fedor. If they know anything about him, they just know that he’s regarded as the best Heavyweight in the world, they can’t really tell you why, it’s just that’s the way it is.”
JORDAN BREEN: “Yeah, exactly, and not even just that, I mean, the kind of people who lead discourse like that tend to be people like you and I, people who you know make ideas and concepts and peddle them and you know we’re kind of fortunate in that regard that sort of our thoughts and the consensus that people in media build becomes important, but the other thing to remember is that a lot of people who are covering the sport making prominent headlines and creating ideas are also people who maybe weren’t there in 2003 or 2005 or whatever, so I mean that’s an example in which I’m interested in how kind history is to someone when the bulk of people who got into the sport didn’t really see it full-thrust and people didn’t see what it was like for Chuck Liddell to go through that streak where he beat (Kevin) Randleman and like the iffy decision with (Murilo) Bustamante and then you know working his way up the ladder, people didn’t know what it was like when Randy (Couture) upset him or what it was like when he finally went on that run…”
TJ DE SANTIS: “People have no idea what it was like to see Chuck Liddell fight a 205-pound Alistair Overeem.”
JORDAN BREEN: “Yeah, exactly, or you know people have no idea how sort of anti-Chuck PRIDE fans were and how viciously people clung to the idea that Alistair Overeem was beating him up quite badly in that three-and-a-half-minute fight.”
TJ DE SANTIS: “They know Chuck Liddell but they’ll never know CHACK Liddell.”
JORDAN BREEN: “Exactly. They don’t know about how Chuck didn’t follow the game plan, why isn’t he following the game plan? The game plan was leg kicks, he’s not following the game plan!”
TJ DE SANTIS: “$250,000 down the drain! Oh, he never paid.”
JORDAN BREEN: “Exactly. So, all those things, it does make me curious. I do think that Liddell will still be favorably remembered but I do think there’s a lot of people who do look at it and go, ‘well what was the big deal about him? I got into this sport and I saw this guy get leveled by everyone.’ “
Listening to them talk about the 2003 period makes me feel really old. I remember the first PRIDE in October of ’97 at the Tokyo Dome very, very well…
Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 49 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
If you’re going to take points away from Fedor because his era of his division isn’t as tough as the latter day one, you have to do the same for Chuck. So if you don’t respect Fedor you’re hypocritical for saying Chuck would be the G.O.A.T. at LHW.
IMO I’d say there’s a mix of a top 5 with he, Wanderlei, Shogun, Tito, and Rampage.
And TJ is right that the people who respect him more are those who were there watching him progress. Clearly all the disrespect is coming from the fans who got into UFC in 2005. So they see what it’s like a little when they come on to defend Chucky.
“Now that UFC has all but closed the door on Chuck Liddell’s active fighting career for that organization”
I think that is a pure marketing ploy by the UFC. My memory of Chuck Liddell, unfortunately, at this point, is him getting brutally knocked out by Rampage, Rashad, and Franklin, and falling asleep on the mat after taking a single solid shot.
Dana White knows exactly what he needs to do to run the #1 MMA promotion in the world.
No. Chuck Liddell is not the best light-heavyweight ever in MMA. He wasn’t even the best during his prime as shown by his first fight with Rampage. He didn’t just lose to Rampage he was beaten down badly. He cannot be considered the best ever when he lost so badly during his prime years.
“Hyperbolic talk or legitimate fact?”
Why does it have to be one or the other?
Ed. — Consider it a sliding scale. Pick your poison.
Anyone who thinks Chuck is the best LHW of all time needs to put down the crack pipe and seek help.
He was demolished by Rampage during his prime. That same Rampage was manhandled by Wanderlei and Shogun.
I think it’s pretty clear that Shogun is the best of all time at LHW so far.
I also think Wanderlei would have beaten Chuck if they fought in a PRIDE ring back in 04-07.
What’s Chuck’s best victory? The wins over Tito and Randy? Wanderlei and he were both past their ‘use by dates’ when they fought.
This guy lost to Keith Jardine for goodness sake.
The same Shogun that got beat down and submitted by Forrest Griffin at the very prime age of 26 years old? Chuck is 40 years old, in most sports they would taken him behind the barn and shot him half a decade ago.
I think Shogun will pass him shortly, but as of right now (prime) Chuck’s record is just a little bit better, and I can’t help but wonder about the age difference. Chuck is 12 years older, but only started fighting MMA 4 years before Shogun did. How good could Chuck have been if you turned back his biological clock 8 years?
Take competition into account, though. Shogun has been fighting top fighters forever. Chuck’s record has some lame opponents on it to fluff it up a bit.
So does Shogun. He never should have struggled like that with Coleman in the second fight or ever been in a position to lose as he did in the first via injury. Diabate is not a top fighter. Nakamura was not a top fighter. Kanehara, Gono, Shoji: not top fighters. He lost a tournament fight with Babalu…but Babalu had the much tougher opening assignment. Shogun had the edge.
While I agree with most of your take I loathe this utter fiction that’s popping up about Griffin destroying/dominating Shogun. I’m not directly attributing this to you here, more of a general comment.
It was a close fight, at worst 1-1 through two rounds and Shogun looked quite good the first round and a half. But he gassed out/size and wrestling played a role and he got finished (and didn’t look good the last round). And he was finished there’s no doubt. But a fighter can lose/be finished without this ridiculous notion that they were dominated, beaten down or what have you. I’d love to see a rematch to determine how much was due to the knee injury/different rules vs. straight up bad matchup.
Chuck would have beaten Wandy no matter what year. Reach advantage + knowing how to perfectly counterpunch through Wand’s looping shots = sure victory.
I’m not too sure of that. We saw Wanderlei drop him twice and not really know what to do momentarily when he couldn’t plow in with kicks, knees and stomps.
Plus I think not having the ring corners to cut Chuck off, as well as the inability to catapult off the ropes and use them to dodge punches played a role in the conversation.
Exactly right about the knees and ring ropes.
Wand looked incredibly uncomfortable in the cage, he even back straight into it a few times.
I think that played a big role in that fight. Same thing with Cro Cop. If you notice almost all of Cro Cops highlight KOs in PRIDE came near or against the ropes. He used the corners and the straight line of the rope to trap opponents and set up the high kick. The cage is so close to a circle that you can keep backing away from him.
Give Forrest a rematch with a healthy Shogun and see what happens.
Chuck’s loss to Rampage doesn’t disqualify him for #1 LHW any more than Wand’s loss to Tito disqualifies him. Both guys lost to a common opponent that the other guy destroyed twice.
If my money was on a single guy at the top of 205, it would be Liddell. Yeah, he lost a bunch late in his career. Happens to a lot of guys. Look at some of the nondescript names who beat Sugar Ray Robinson at the end. Ezzard Charles lost 7 of his last 9. Mike Tyson lost to Danny Williams and Kevin McBride. Its what happens to almost everyone. He still beat Tito and Wanderlei when both were still relevant. Also beat Couture when it really really mattered. Beat Belfort, Babalu, Alistar Overeem, Bustamante, Randleman, Mezger, and so on. All of them were beaten decisively. Did he have losses? Sure. Who doesn’t at 205, the pinnacle division in MMA’s short history stateside? Even the unbeatable have lost at some point there.
Still, I agree with others when it comes to “what could have been”. History totally rewrote the Rampage story with that KO loss in the second fight. Does anyone here remember Rampage/Ninja? Rampage/Dong? That was Liddell’s best chance at getting revenge and he came in looking portly and left unconscious. It became a pattern and that was all she wrote.
Wanderlei wasn’t really relevant when he lost to Chuck. Well, I’d need to see a more precise definition of the term, but it’s safe to say that he wasn’t as good as he’d been, and he wasn’t good enough to beat any top fighter by that time. I also don’t get how the first fight with the then-39-year-old Couture didn’t matter, but the subsequent ones did.
That’s not to say that Chuck wasn’t a legend or that he’s not way up there on the list of the best LHWs ever. I think Rua is the clear No. 1 already, and he’s just now hitting his prime. By the time he’s done, he might surpass Fedor as the greatest fighter MMA has seen.
Hey Zach…you are old 🙂
Some of us even remember early UFC shows in the single digits. I didn’t see PRIDE then though unfortunately. Didn’t find tapes of it at my video store ’til #10.
You didn’t miss anything.
I look at it this way. Chuck won 5 straight title fights as champion of the UFC. Who was the last person to win more than 2? Also, when Chuck was champ, he wasn’t edging out decisions, he was knocking people out left and right. He has more KO’s/TKO’s than Anderson Silva in title fights. He’s fallen far since then, but back then he was thought in the same light as Anderson Silva, but with a killer instinct. Most websites had him as the p4p #1, with Fedor #2.
Now, having said all that, I don’t think he’ll be remembered as the best LHW ever for very long. Like they mentioned in the transcript, if someone goes on a tear as champion with the talent the UFC has now, they’ll overtake Chuck in a few short years.
Shogn is best 205 in mma history. His list of wins is ridiculous. Arona, Overeem, Rampage, Machida, lil Nog, Randleman, Liddell, etc. He is going to savage Rashad and I would pick him against Anderson too. Machida is in my opinion the 2nd best 205er we have ever seen in the sport, and Shogun was able to finish him.
At his prime, I would say Chuck was not as good as Rampage but probably was better than Rashad. We never got to see Wanderlei vs Chuck in their primes, sadly.
Heh, people always type etc once they run out of names.
“Trust me, there’s other top guys just like this, I just can’t remember them all”
Chuck’s got Tito, Babalu (Shogun beat him too right?), Couture, Overeem, Belfort, Randleman, Mezger, Monson, Pele, and W. Silva (since you threw in a past-his-prime Chuck, I get to throw in a past-his-prime Silva). Etc. It’s a little longer.
Wow, Shogun lost to Babalu in his 2nd fight of the night in his fifth career fight.
You know who Shogun has who Chuck doesn’t, IceMuncher? Rampage, as in the Rampage who destroyed Chuck twice while in his prime and the same Rampage who was absolutely destroyed beyond recognition by Shogun.
When I compare them, the only thing that Chuck has better than Shogun is punching power. Even in his prime, Chuck wasn’t particularly technical and he was always fairly slow. His kicks aren’t nearly as good as Shogun’s, he was never the athlete Shogun is, and his ground skills were never of that level either. Chuck in his prime was a great right hand, an iron chin, and an excellent ability to sprawl and to get back up. He almost never fought anyone who could stand with him, except Overeem/Mezger/Busta, and he made great comebacks in the first two and got incredibly in the latter. Shogun also struggled with Overeem before crushing him, but unlike Chuck, Shogun has a very diversified and well-rounded game; Chuck can win only with teh overhand right; Shogun can win with an assortment of tools that Chuck was incapable of utilizing regularly.
You know another thing that’s funny. Everyone willing to write Shogun’s loss to Griffin off because of his knee injury, but no one talking about the multiple injuries Chuck had against Rampage in their first fight.
Besides when were talking about GOAT wins and losses are the only thing you should go by. When you start talking about the skill-set of certain fighters you go towards more of a “who would win scenario”. Not who is higer on an all-time list.
Yeah yeah, and Shogun lost to Coleman. Don’t try to write that loss off either, it’s as legit as any other loss, no different than if Coleman had thrown a high kick and broke Shogun’s arm when he blocked it. I know it’s very common online to see people write off all of Shogun’s losses, but each of the four was legit in my opinion.
As far as skill sets go, Chuck is also clearly far superior in TD defense. The guy is legendary in that aspect, and easily one of the best defensive wrestlers of all time. Shogun still has issues with his wrestling.
Put Shogun in cage with Tito or Randy back in 2005, and they very well may have put a wrestling clinic on him. I mean, look at how easily Randy was able to put Liddell on his back in the first fight, and then try to mentally switch Liddell’s defensive wrestling with Shogun’s defensive wrestling. It ain’t pretty. We’ll never know though, which is why judging greatness based on skillsets is meaningless.
Chuck has slightly better wins, and the losses are pretty much a wash.
“Yeah yeah, and Shogun lost to Coleman. Don’t try to write that loss off either, it’s as legit as any other loss, no different than if Coleman had thrown a high kick and broke Shogun’s arm when he blocked it.”
First of all why is a (freak injury) loss at HW at all relevant to a conversation about the LHW division?
Second, c’mon…even you don’t believe that. The comparison isn’t even close. It was a total freak injury – yes it counts as a “loss” but lets not compare apples to horseturds. How many times have you seen that injury in mma period? I can only think of once (Cyborg Santos) – the arm break one is far more valid/legitimate (numerous examples – RandyxGG, Le x Shamrock, Franklin x Liddell) in terms of it being part of fighting rather than some completely unfortunate occurrence. Coleman was on his hands and knees flailing around, managed to trip/ankle pick Shogun who happened to post at the “perfect” angle to break an arm…if Coleman picked him up and slammed him and it happend I’d be completely obliged to agree, but not on this sorry.
Dana should be commended for having the guts to retire Kimbo and Chuck from the UFC while they both still would have provided PPV drawing power.
Ah debates like this(which are pointless because nobody changes their mind) are awesome.
I would have to put Chuck on top. His list is a little bit better than Wand’s list, and I think we should wait to rank Shogun for a couple years. The guy still possibly has 6 or 7 more years fighting. I Rashad comes in and “rides” Rua to a dec than he would lose more stock. If he wins than he is obviously elevated further.
Wait, so you’re implying that there are debates where someone has changed their mind by the end of it? This is the internet, that’s impossible.
There is no doubt that Chuck is the greatest LHW of all-time anyone saying different either doesn’t know the sport or is a PRIDE fanboy still living in denial. His resume is second to none and as we’ve found out it’s really hard to hold onto the belt as long as he did. People can argue about who might surpass him but speaking today any top LHW list starts with Liddell at the top.
I love it when you call everybody biased Pride/Strikeforce fanboys when you’re the #1 troll on this messageboard shilling for Zuffa. At least 45 Huddle makes some really good points so you can’t call him a troll. You just come here to insult anybody who isn’t a UFC kiss ass.
There is no great LHW so far. The divisions were divided for years. An since it has become unified there has been really no good successful title defenses.
Fedor has had a weak division to play with. Even today it is weak. Heck, Ben Rothwell is a Top 20 Heavyweight. Need I say more? If so…. Then how about all of the top guys in that division with huge holes in their game.
Even Anderson Silva’s run hasn’t been overly
impressive. It’s a weaker division.
To me, the guy that impresses me the most is GSP. Top guy with top wins in a loaded division. That has been the most impressive guy so far based on the talent level.
Agreed, for the most part, but I still put Hughes at the top when it comes to dominating a division stacked with talent. Although it probably shouldn’t “officially” matter, I think it speaks volumes that only 1 of Hughes’s 9 title fight victories was via decision.
GSP is a very close second, and I’ve no doubts he will easily surpass him in the next 2-3 years, but for now Hughes’s is my vote for the best champion in MMA history when you take depth of talent into account.
See I can’t put Hughes at the top of his division. GSP has already surpassed him in my own mind.
Biggest wins:
Hughes- GSP, Riggs, Trigg x2, Newton x2, Sakurai, Serra, Castillo, Sherk, Penn
GSP- Hughes x2, Penn x2, Trigg, Sherk, Koscheck, Serra, Fitch, Alves, Pariysian, Hieron, Mayhem Miller
I gotta go with GSP. That list is absolutely disgusting.
Yeah, when you put it like that I’d have to give GSP the edge in wins over competition. For some reason I was thinking about title runs, where Hughes had that ridiculous reign starting from Newton that ended when GSP beat him, with a single avenged hiccup from BJ halfway through.
Half of GSP’s great wins are from his time as a title challenger, so for whatever reason I blanked on them.
Well put. That list is just shocking.
GSP is unquestionably the best fighter MMA has seen up to this point. I’ve felt that way for years. The only thing that bums me out is the inability to bring around some worthy challengers.
Hopefully one or more of these guys will put up a fight with GSP: Koscheck, one of Fitch or Alves, Kampmann, Condit, Thiago and Shields.
Stepping back and looking at that list… I dunno man. I used to think Paulo Thiago posed the most legitimate threat, but now I’m not that confident in his chances, either.
He seemed to lose any fundamentals he had.
I thought he had tightened his striking in his last fight, but was swinging for the fences here. Then he was trampled by Kampmann on the ground. He’ll have to win another fight or two extra to get into contendership, but I don’t think he’s derailed by any means.
Kos’ best weapon is his tongue. That’s what will make the rematch sparkle for fans. It has nothing to do with what he presents to GSP at this stage. He abandoned wrestling for so long, and is at such an age right now that I see him as a “pie who’s already baked”. He might at least get finished by GSP.
Of that list, Shields has the best shot. Big enough and skilled as a wrestler enough to stop the takedowns and get control himself on top. Might not be a thriller to watch the replay of, but he could be effective. None of those other guys have anything for GSP.
Rampage is one of my favorite fighters ever. He has a killer resume at 205. But he was destroyed twice by Wand and manhandled by Shogun. He cannot be the best 205 fighter ever. With that same logic I dont think Chuck can be ranked as the best ever. Rampage Mauled him the first time they fought and knocked him into orbit the second time. He has lost 5 of his last 6. No way is he the GOAT of 205.
And Wand got beat in the UFC by Tito and embarrassed by Vitor also not to mention Shogun was choked out by Babalu and beaten by Coleman. We can stand here all day and try and discredit every fighter’s wins and excuse all of their losses but it’s a waste of time. Chuck’s resume is just better than his competition at 205 right now who knows what the future holds but for now he’s the best. Also funny how quick people are to catch feelings when you make a simple statement, maybe the truth cut a little too close to some who knows.
More useless drivel from the Dana-lapdog who uses the same shining intellect of “if you don’t agree with my clearly biased opinion (easily illustrated by the immediate appeal to all other opinions are fanboys’) you don’t ‘know the sport’ (which assumes your ignorant ass is of some type of imaginary authority) or are a butthurt fanboy.”
If I ever saw a butthurt apologist fanboy – he looks a lot like you.
Bringing up losses from ’99 – ’00…super relevant. Like Liddell’s loss to jeremy horn?
Threads like these are so funny. It’s extremely easy to spot the fight finder revisionist n00bs and the people who have been following the sport for a long time and actually saw the fights mentioned when they happened, and in context.
It’s hard to compare legacies (for many of the reasons listed above in other comments) but we have to make do with whatever evidence we have. For the following reasons, I have to pick Rua as the LHW GOAT, and give 2nd place to Liddell.
1. Rua knocked out Liddell (it’s true that they were at different points in their careers, but we can’t just leave it out of our analysis) Rua: 1, Liddell: 0
2. Common opponents: Rua devastated Jackson, who twice finished Liddell. Meanwhile, Liddell twice knocked out Sobral, who submitted Rua. Both fighters hold wins over Randleman and Overeem. Tie. Rua: 2, Liddell: 1
3. Quality of defeated opposition: Ignore the nobodies who litter both guys’ lists and compare, say, the top 5 career wins. Liddell: [Wanderlei, Ortiz, Couture, Sobral, Belfort] Rua: [Machida, Jackson, Liddell, Nogueira and Arona]. I gotta give it to Rua. Rua: 3, Liddell: 1
4. Losses: I’ll give each fighter a pass for his first career loss (Rua to Sobral, Liddell to Horn) and allow him one loss to a subpar opponent (Rua with Coleman, Liddell with Jardine). Besides that, the quality of opponents both fights have lost to is just stellar. For Liddell it’s Franklin, Rua, Evans, Jackson and Couture; for Rua it’s Machida and Griffin. You won’t catch me giving grief to any fighter who loses to guys like these. I also wouldn’t penalize Liddell for his longer loss list – he’s had a longer career, more fights, and most of his losses are bunched up at the end of his career, which may happen to Rua in due time. They get another tie on this one.
Final score is Rua: 4, Liddell: 2.
Klown by your logic I would have to disagree just a tad. The main point is #3. Simply put I think Liddells trumps Rua’s.
And #3 is obviously an opinion question so it would probably be split right down the middle for different readers on this site.
Yeah it all boils down to number 3, it’s not just who you beat but also when you beat them and just how good the fighter was. Chuck fought and beat tons of top fighters and always looked to face the best even outside the UFC, the list of champions alone he beat while they still were at a top level is crazy. There is simply no one yet that can match his accolades as a competitor and as a champion that’s why he’s the best. And no matter how emotional people get unless Shogun or someone else goes on a long reign as champion it’s still not going to be close.
The long reign is such a red herring – if only they can find someone tailor made for Shogun to whip his ass with little downside risk and let him fight him twice – the second being a completely unnecessary fight done for business purposes (see: Ortiz or Sobral) and bring back some 185lb worn out journeyman (see: Horn)…then he could have an impressive reign as champ.
For my money Shogun’s run through the 2005 MWGP was far more impressive than the championship run for Liddell. He did it within a calendar year, against 4 top 10 opponents, none of whom he’d faced before and who had vastly different fighting styles and he finished 3 of them within the distance, the other fight being FOTY.
Frankly outside of Randy, most of Liddell’s impressive resume comes from outside of the title run.
Right because none of those fighters are any good and could never beat a top guy like Shogun oh wait Babalu did. Never mind the ridiculousness of you calling Horn a journeyman truly showing your lack of mma knowledge.
You do that and you’d lose your money, first because Shogun’s win over Nog was debatable to say the least and also because Chuck beat 2 former champions while Shogun beat 1.
In the end Chuck’s resume and legacy is on another level than Shogun’s right now.
“Never mind the ridiculousness of you calling Horn a journeyman truly showing your lack of mma knowledge.”
LOL – that’s a laugh…you trying to insult my “mma knowledge” when it’s plain as day to see that yours came from a SPIKE TV special. You have one of the least educated, least knowledgeable mma opinions I’ve read here. You’re the biggest short bus, TUF educated, Goldberg gospel repeater around. Go find a few Dana quotes to echo for us as if they’re some indisputable fact….
I’m giving an evaluation of the fight and the fighter at the time the fight occur and not based on the person’s legacy.
At the time the fight occurred Jeremy Horn was JUST THAT…a f*ckin’ mma journeyman. He may have been a pioneer and at one time one of the top-end 185lb fighters in the mid to late 90s and very early ’00s. But you show your bias/ignorance/total and complete lack of mma knowledge by trying to argue he was anything but a fattened up 185lbs journeyman jobber brought in to lose at the time he had the rematch with Liddell. It was a fight that was made in order to have a compelling storyline and give Chuck a guaranteed (as there can be in mma) win.
“Right because none of those fighters are any good and could never beat a top guy like Shogun oh wait Babalu did.”
WOW…remember when Chuck got choked the fuck out by Jeremy Horn? The 185 pounder + 15 lbs of fat? Like totally tooled him? Remember how Chuck just never got better ever and we quote the Horn loss as proof positive about how he just can’t be good? ….here you are at it again with the really relevant argument of someone beating Rua when he was a total noob to mma. Wow…that’s really relevant that Babalu with 30 fights, over 10 RINGS fights and a handful of UFC fights beat Rua in the FIFTH fight of his career!!!!(ZOMG! Shogun totally suxxxxorzzzz..he is the WURSZZT 4VARRR) Fact of the matter is Rua is and has been a completely different fighter than he was when he fought him with all of 3 fights experience going into that DAY…based on the matchmaking Chuck had, they should give Rua a rematch with Sobral as it would make even more sense than putting a fat, worn out Horn against “the best LHW ever in mma”.
“You do that and you’d lose your money, first because Shogun’s win over Nog was debatable to say the least and also because Chuck beat 2 former champions while Shogun beat 1.”
haha…more laughs – thanks for those. Shogun’s win is debatable in your mind because it helps your argument. That fight was next to indisputable – go look at the FightMetric numbers – it’s not even CLOSE.
Wow. Chuck beat “two former champions”…case closed because those two former champions are clearly better than the four guys fighting in another organization! – Tito Ortiz…the most overrated victory of the whole conversation. He beat Wanderlei Silva in 2000 when they still let you dry hump fighters in full guard for an entire fight and Ken Shamrock. KEN. F#CKING. SHAMROCK. Ruminate on that. Rua would have rolled him like a bag of toys….fact of the matter he beat Ricardo Arona who was, at the time (and prob now), an even better version of Tito Ortiz.
Not to mention this is entirely based on opinion so using your retarded logic, my opinion is that Rua’s run is better so I am undisputedly right and you are wrong…so sorry you lose your money.