« UFC 5/8 Montreal (Bell Centre) | Home | Chael Sonnen reveals how he almost became a professional wrestler and what Paulo Filho said to him during their second fight in WEC »
Five takeaways from UFC 113
By Zach Arnold | May 8, 2010
1. Despite many Canadian fighters losing at UFC 113, UFC’s power in Canada is growing and growing.
The Montreal crowd was hotter than I expected. Montreal has turned into a great market for UFC. “But it’s not Toronto.” Soon enough, UFC will be in Toronto and Ottawa and Canada will become as big of a market for UFC as it used to be for WWE in the 1980s and 1990s. WWE’s power in Canada has diminished significantly and UFC’s power is growing in the country. Canada is a wonderful country for sports fans and their passion is simply unrivaled.
I understand that there were many concerns in the past about the Canadian Dollar/US Dollar exchange rate, but now the exchange rate is basically even and given the amount of debt that America is in I think it’s going to be a while before the Loonie goes back to being the US Dollar’s little brother. Because the exchange rate is what it is, it makes running Canada much more attractive if you’re an American entertainment or sports operation. UFC must be absolutely thrilled.
2. The end of the Kimbo Slice experiment.
Did UFC get the most bang for their buck with him? He popped them great ratings on The Ultimate Fighter, then he had a horrible fight against Houston Alexander (not totally his fault), and the end of his run likely … is to elevate a 1-0 now 2-0 fighter named Matt Mitrione. If Mitrione turns out to be a legitimate heavyweight in UFC, it’s a great deal. But as we’ve seen with UFC booking time in and time out, it’s going to be hard to see how the matchmakers will have patience with Mitrione and how succeptible they probably will be in throwing him to the wolves sooner rather than later.
All in all, I think the verdict on the Kimbo/UFC experiment is that it was good, but not great, and maybe they didn’t maximize the value they could have with him, but they were cautious and had every reason to be.
And after the event, Kimbo was cut.
3. What did UFC expect out of Paul Daley?
They put him on TV saying he’s going to “kill that motherfucker,” then he’s making gay slurs against Koscheck on a UFC conference call, he’s constantly running his mouth on hype videos and is doing photoshop contests on The Underground Forum with someone doing a picture of Koscheck and Tito Ortiz kissing. To top it off, there was actually a chance that he could have been a coach on The Ultimate Fighter. With his skill set? Seriously? On top of that, Daley went into this fight telling ESPN UK that he had no singular loyalty to UFC and that he wanted to fight in multiple MMA organizations and win multiple MMA titles. So, when he fought the way he did and he takes a cheap shot at Josh Koscheck after the fight, why is anyone surprised? Why is Dana White mad? You knew what you were getting with Daley. It’s like the fable about the Scorpion and the Frog.
I understand why White is mad. He along with the rest of UFC management viewed this Montreal show as their big selling point heading into the political season in Ontario to get MMA legislation passed. Yes, Daley is a punk and what he did was a punk move. There’s no defense for his actions. I can understand why he has major heat on him for what he did, given the fact that it gives the critics some ammunition. However, if you wanted to avoid those antics, you should have never booked Daley in the first place and fostered his behavior the way it was.
On MMA Live, it was announced that Dana White cut Paul Daley from UFC and that he is not welcome to fight for Zuffa again. “Well, I think I won twice,” responded Josh Koscheck.
4. The comparison between Josh Koscheck and Ken Patera is accurate.
For those who don’t remember Ken Patera, Ken Patera was a great heel who made his name in the late 70s and early 80s on Strongest Man competitions on CBS. Who else could pull off some of those feats while wearing the kind of glasses he did? He was an intelligent heel. He knew how to piss off people and he was great at what he did. He was good at practically everything. Patera, while doing Strongest Man, was a professional wrestler. He was the Missouri state champion in the St. Louis wrestling territory. He feuded with the top guys for the NWA World Heavyweight title. Patera never was “the man” but he was always in the mix and a dangerous heel.
Which, in a sense, describes Josh Koscheck in the UFC. He is credible, he is a masterful promo, he’s a great personality, and absolutely brilliant at what he does. He gets knocked out from time to time and it only adds to the heat he draws from fans who get so incensed at him that they will pay to see him get his comeuppance.
I only wish his fight against Georges St. Pierre was in Montreal or Toronto.
5. The revenge of PRIDE and how PRIDE is playing a big part in keeping UFC’s top of the cards going.
Here’s another pro-wrestling analogy for you. (The old-school wrestling fans will love this and the pure MMA fans probably already hate me at this point.)
Watching Shogun win the UFC Light Heavyweight title reminded me so much of when Ric Flair won the WWF title in the early 90s. Flair came into the WWF from the NWA and he was billed as “the real world’s heavyweight champion” and his fans loved him because of where he came from. He wasn’t a product of Vince McMahon. So, when he finally won McMahon’s title, Flair’s fans felt like their league was “major.”
With Shogun winning tonight, it is clear that PRIDE’s stars are now the ones keeping UFC’s title pictures interesting to watch. The question is what will happen when the PRIDE stars eventually fade into the sunset and UFC has to make new stars to replace them. Rampage is a PRIDE guy, Shogun a PRIDE guy, and Machida was Antonio Inoki’s “child.” Rashad Evans is the one true UFC creation in that mix. It would be fitting to see Rampage vs. Shogun in the near future.
The irony of the PRIDE guys taking over in UFC is that for years PRIDE was a dirty word in UFC circles. Now, you hear fighters go on a UFC microphone and be like, “Yeah man, I watched PRIDE for years, it was so great and the fighters were so wonderful.” And PRIDE taped shows being re-mixed on Spike are drawing big ratings, something Dana is taking credit for.
What a funny world.
Topics: Canada, Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 103 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
I’m watching the post-fight conference. Paul Daley is gone forever from the UFC.
What happens with Kimbo now? Surely they don’t cut him.
As for Daley, I bet he gets cut. Wait. I’ll say that I believe that there is a 51% chance he gets cut. Just a hunch, even though I didn’t watch the MMA tonight.
Did Dana White really say that Paul Daley is cut from the UFC at the press conference? Damn. So it’s only ok to assault a guy outside an actual sanctioned fight if it happens on a competitor’s show? (Nate Diaz, UFC contractor, goes unpunished by Zuffa. Jake Shields, the guy who started the CBS brawl, may be rewarded by a potential Zuffa signing. Even Nick Diaz, who soccerkicked Mayhem, is rumored to possibly be signing with Zuffa)
Wooooow. I just saw the cheapshot by Daley, I find it far worse and far more blatant than anything else I’ve seen in MMA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BDBUjBZb2c
I can see heat of the moment, not stopping when a ref pulls you off, etc. I mean, it isn’t good, but at the same time, it isn’t so deliberate.
Dare I say this dude should be docked his entire purse, I’m not sure I’ve seen such a terrible display.
Go look up James Butler’s cheap shot on ESPN boxing after he lost to Richard Grant.
The Daley shot was pathetically weak, which made it even stupider. Daley has the IQ of a little kid. He sounds like it and he acts like it.
The shot by Butler on Grant was horrific. I’ll never forget that night.
It was sickening. My wife and I were watching the live TV broadcast.
I got even more sick later, when I heard that Butler murdered Max Kellerman’s brother.
Christ, that is just terrible.
Sometimes I hate being a fight fan because there are so many absolutely moronic fighters in the world.
Zach you could not be more wrong about point number 5, first we’ve seen these supposed Pride stars already be humbled in the UFC including Shogun and Rampage. Funny how you seem to have forgotten about Forrest Griffin who right now is in prime position get another title shot with a win.
Second, the Pride name means nothing to the UFC these guys are UFC made stars now once they crapped out Zuffa had to rebuild all of these guys into real threats and compared to UFC guys they still are not even close to the draws that Brock, GSP, and BJ are.
Honestly I know alot of people are still in denial and can’t accept that the UFC won the war but they did it’s over they all belong to Zuffa now.
The UFC most definitely won the war, but it was never more entertaining to watch than Pride.
“Kimbo Slice’s UFC career has “probably” come to an end following his second-round TKO loss to Matt Mitrione on Saturday at UFC 113.
“That’s probably Kimbo’s last fight in the UFC. Kimbo’s done. We’re going to cut him” UFC President Dana White said at the UFC 113 post-fight press conference.”
First off,let me say congrats to Rua!
I’m a fan of both him & Machida, and was actually pulling for Lyoto. But Rua won in strong fashion and there was no shame in Machida falling to such a strong competitor.
Even though Rua had the edge in the exchange of striking, Machida held his own and landed some good shots. He was actually wining the round by quite a bit, due to his having the three takedowns.
Machida seemed a bit nervous, and overly aggressive. I applaud the fact that he was more assertive & on the offence, and didn’t try to run or depend on his counter striking.
But he also seemed a bit reckless in the exchange where Rua nailed him in the temple and he went down.
Machida is still a favorite of mine, but so is Rua.
NOW I’d like to see Anderson Silva move up to Light-Heavyweight and see Rua get a win over him. 🙂
Daley is a dumbass.
If he is really gone from UFC, good riddance. Let him fight in his multiple fight promotions and drift into obscurity. It was so funny to see him mouth “It’s fucking bullshit!” after the decision was announced.
What was bullshit? The fact that Koscheck schooled him in his takedowns and groundwork???
And yes Dave (2), I agree with your coments.
And I love the Ken Patera analogy Zach. Koscheck works the pro wrestling heel thing in MMA better then Lesnar or Ortiz. The comments to the fans in Montreal were so funny because they were SOOOO worked, you could tell he didn’t mean a word of it,…his cornermen behind him looked like they were trying so hard not to piss themselves & laugh.
Kimbo may be kept around just to generate interest,…but he still seemed like he had no defense off of his feet. He did seem better at *preventing* being taken off of his feet, but once there, he really struggled. Seemed to gas early again too. But his slams are exciting as well as his power, so maybe he’ll be a constant mid-card fighter as long as he knocks out a few guys here and slams a few there.
Mitrione legit seemes to “not have all his dogs barking”, if you know what I mean…time for an analogy to George Steele. 🙂
Overall, I really enjoyed this fight card and was personally not bored by a single fight.
I hope the next event is as enjoyable.
I’m surprised they did’nt keep Kimbo, for Toney’s last fight (assuming he gets owned by Randy)
Kimbo Slice was handled properly by the UFC. Made to come through TUF. Never given a main event fight. Was never promoted as a world beater. I agree the experiment is done. He will probably fight once more, lose, and be done. He lacks any sort of fighting ability at this point.
As soon as I saw Daley’s punch, I knew he was gone from the UFC. That was about as low as you can go. He completely killed his career in North America. Strikeforce can’t touch him, he was dominated by Koscheck and Shields, and he will always be known as the guy who threw the late punch. What he did was pathetic on so many levels.
Overall, decent show. Nice to see Rua dominate like that. Let me be the first to say that Machida is going to go on a big losing streak. Maybe not consecutively, but he will never be the same again. He is not a great technical striker. He plays the elusive game great. And that takes a whole bunch of confidence in your abilities to pull off. The doubt in his mind is going to get him KO’d a few more times sooner rather then later.
—
Didn’t realize they cut Kimbo. A smart move. He looked bad enough to warrant a cut.
“Honestly I know alot of people are still in denial and can’t accept that the UFC won the war but they did it’s over they all belong to Zuffa now.”
WHAT???
There was no “war”.
PRIDE killed themselves when their connections to big organized crime in Japan making front page news over there with specifics of threats to fighters & other individuals as well as other activities.
UFC was never at war with PRIDE in Japan,…because both:
A) They were never a threat to them
and
B) UFC never had an urge to do so.
If you think UFC and Pride never was in a war, men, you get born maybe the last year.
Pride and UFC get in a big talent and roster during 2003 – 2005.
Read some old shit, and get into the MMA mix man, that years was real history.
They were at war in 2006-2007 when PRIDE came to America. Until then the UFC had positive words for them. Then Sakakibara played Dana for free publicity right before they made moves to come to America by promising PRIDE fighters would fight in the UFC climaxing with the big mess with Wanderlei after UFC 61, then Dana got pissed off and fought with them for about a year until they went out of business. But PRIDE was weakened at that point because the Yakuza ordeal cost them their TV so who knows what would have happened with a strong PRIDE versus strong UFC.
Koscheck is great. I used to hate him when he was just a boring blanket, but now he’s generally (not always) an entertaining fighter who incites fury in the crowd wherever he goes. Its awesome.
Point 5 also doesn’t have any value at all. The Pride guys are keeping the title picture relevant because THEY ARE THE BEST FIGHTERS RIGHT NOW, at least at LHW. Is the HW division struggling because the top five fighters are UFC guys with one WWE guy?
Eventually the top Pride guys at LHW will fade into the sunset, and their replacements will be just as popular. Its ridiculous to suggest that just because those great fighters happened to be in Pride originally, the UFC will not be able to replace them. Those guys were in Pride originally because all the money used to be in Pride. Now all the money is in the UFC.
“Those guys were in Pride originally because all the money used to be in Pride. Now all the money is in the UFC.”
I agree.
Japan & PRIDE in paticular was the “big time”. It may become that big in Japan again (I hope it does), but as of right now, UFC is the place to be, the NFL of MMA.
Nice to see Shogun win.
I don’t understand why Dana feels the need to make decisions concerning the future of fighters at the press conference. Can’t he wait, speak with his partners and the fighters management, and then make the call? It seems like he is letting the emotion of the moment make the call for him.
I feel kinda like a butthead for saying what daley did was a heck of a lot different than what the Diaz brothers did, who I defended.
But I really think spastically attacking your opponent, in the face of and barroling through you third man.
And doing so whithout warning your victem while he is obviosly in an after fight repose and is unsuspecting of an additional attack, is worse than what mayhem did.
Mayhem may have set a bad example for englishmen.
If I was Kos I would shine it on.
But there is something a smidge more disgusting about what paul did than what the Diaz brothers did IMO.
Putting Kimbo against a real fighter was a mistake!
Mitrione may not be the best fighter walking the earth, but he’s crazy and wont take a dive!
A bad match up against the Kimbo investment.
(Although its a win for me and my argument Vs/my african american brothers that MMA fighters are actually for real 😉 )
Zach, your a loser and the fact that you repeatedly make reference to, and tout your love for fake-wrestling proves my point. You constant reference to fake-wrestling cheapens this otherwise legit site.
The finishes in pro wrestling are fake. But the business of it is real. It makes real money, sells out real buildings and has real (though often crazy) fans.
Zach is comparing business-wise MMA and Wrestling. They are almost identical in that regard.
If you had better reading comprehension skills you might have picked up on that already. Hopefully this helps.
It’s funny, I make comparisons on a business level and I get hate mail that I’m a geek, that I’m a moron. Yet a lot of what is said is accurate.
What makes it funny is that there are a lot of closet wrestling fans out there who perfectly understand what I am saying.
1) As long as GSP stays a star, it doesn’t matter if other fighters are destroyed on Canadian shows.
2) I don’t know if they got any bang for their buck with Kimbo. He gave them two big TV ratings, and then what? His fanboys aren’t going to stick around, they never watched anything that didn’t have him on it. So did they really get paid that well for getting 6 million TUF viewers once? Kimbo did well for Kimbo, not for the UFC. He’ll be in Strikeforce getting good ratings because his fans (that are not remotely interested in MMA) can make up excuses like nobodies business for why he sucks so bad. Kimbo’s fans are like Jeff Hardy fans in pro wrestling: they couldn’t care less about anything else but their idol and will not support you in any way beyond shows featuring Jeff. I think Kimbo fans walked out of the TUF 10 Finale after his fight the same way Hardy fans infamously leave after his wrestling matches. That is not going to help you long term so it’s practically useless at the end of the day.
And speaking of pro wrestling, it’s time Kimbo called Titan Tower.
3) Daley is an idiot. I didn’t expect this out of him, though. I guess he’ll go to Japan where he’ll be the new Gilbert Yvel.
4) Are you saying Josh Koscheck is going to vandalize a McDonald’s for not serving him?
5) There is no “revenge of PRIDE” or “revenge of UFC” for any fight outcome. It’s “fighter A” was better than “fighter B”. Machida made mistakes he never made before and paid for it. I agree with 45 Huddle that this is going to ruin him mentally, because when you’re hyped as undefeated for that long and you finally lose you’re ruined (ask Mike Tyson, Mark Kerr, and Vitor Belfort.) Good for Shogun for finally living up to his promise again after seemingly peaking in ’03, but this was a win for a single man, not any fight promotion.
Sixth takeaway:
Shogun is actually a nice guy. He pulled off Machida when he saw Lyoto was out, before Lavigne even stopped the fight. It was great to see this type of sportsmanship.
Hua is quality, all the way around.
Even though he stated in interviews that he felt he won their first encounter, he always mentioned that he respected Machida as a peson and a fighter.
I hope he has a long run with the title, and even more so, many great fights defending it.
That really made me glad to see and he followed it up well with the mothers day well wishes.
Nice and classy and made him about a million fans right there.
He’s always been my favorite. I love that dude and I’m so happy he won. I really felt bad when he took that Forrest fight on a bad knee and everyone said he stunk and was washed up.
He did the right thing for his new company and people wrote him off.
But MMA is a funny business by the this time next year he’ll have the LHW division halfway cleaned out and people will say he’s the best ever.
PS. Claude, this is another similarity between MMA and Wrestling.
“If you think UFC and Pride never was in a war, men, you get born maybe the last year.
Pride and UFC get in a big talent and roster during 2003 – 2005.
Read some old shit, and get into the MMA mix man, that years was real history.”
I….REALLY don’t understand what is trying to be said in this comment. Be it the tone or extremely poor verbage.
I’ve been follwing MMA since 1985 via a family friend who was in Japan and had magzine & video tapes of SHOOTO. I’ve been a fan of PANCRASE and UFC since both started in 1993.
By “war” do you mean, trying to sign top talent?
If so, that is not a war, that is smart business sense.
PRIDE regulary mantioned when fighters had success in UFC,SHOOTO, PANCRASE and K-1, who they REALLY developed a nasty rivalry with. UFC has done the same.
They really don’t mention StrikeForce due to the current climate between them. THAT can be considered a war.
I’ve read my “old shit”,..I don’t know where you have gotten your news from.
UFC held three events in Japan, had a “UFC Japan” office there which they later closed down. UFC would never have been able to touch PRIDE in Japan,….just like PRIDE could never touch UFC in North America, now that they are as big as they are.
Has almost nothing to do with quality and almost everything to do with the individual companies being native to where they promote.
It was and is a cultural difference.
Claude says:
“Zach, your a loser and the fact that you repeatedly make reference to, and tout your love for fake-wrestling proves my point. You constant reference to fake-wrestling cheapens this otherwise legit site.”
Oh,I don’t think so:
Lesnar, Koschek and Ortiz ALL play the pro wrestling villian, or “heel” in MMA…and Dana White loves it.
Why?
Because it makes them more marketable. It draws heat from those who want to see them get their asses beat.
It is just like when any other athlete trash talks, they become the heel. Most sports fans hate them for it, but there is always a group who love them for either seeming like anti-heros or just because the come across as being rebellious. Either way,it is good for business.
Don’t beleive it?
Dana White gave Lesnar his title shot after having a 2-1 won-loss record. Why was that? Because he was marketable, because it ended up being a good business decision, not because he earned it.
And don’t forget that despite Vince bashing the UFC with his insane quotes about them being incapable of producing stars like pro wrestling because UFC can’t control fight outcomes, Dana has never said anything negative about Vince. If anybody else in the world said something along those lines he’d go off on him in the press immediately, but Vince gets a pass to say what he wants about WWE. Part of that is because he’s thankful that McMahon gave them the approval to come to Spike. But part of that is because he really admires McMahon and clearly takes many pages out of his promotion handbook and how they both carry themselves similarly. Don King and Bob Arum don’t pretend like they’re toughguys like their boxers, but Dana, like Vince, passes himself off as “one of the boys.” And it’s no coincidence.
Hate pro wrestling all you want, but you’d be watching a very different MMA landscape if it didn’t exist.
“Lesnar, Koschek and Ortiz ALL play the pro wrestling villian, or “heel” in MMA…”
In your fever dreams.
I keep hearing that BS excuse for tito from rasslin fruits.
Just because someone is an asshole doesn’t mean they’re “playing the heel”.
Koschek is definitely playing the heel. He did a Ric Flair faceflop when he pretended to get hit by that knee.
Making fun of a hometown sports team is classic heel work.
Tito too plays the heel. He’s a very nice and quiet guy in real life. If you didn’t know he was an MMA fighter and you met him, you’d say he was unassuming.
Yep, this is all pretty common knowledge,…I’m just suprised that so many “serious” fight fans can’t see it!
I’m an MMA fan, not a wrestling fan and i see it plain as day.
The face flop comment was a riot too!
Oh, and I thought, Zach comparison to Patera was initially due to the bleached fizzy hair they both have. 🙂
“Tito too plays the heel. He’s a very nice and quiet guy in real life.”
Reaaaly…
Are you implying that you know him?
I’ve never seen any evidence to back up your assertion in any of his public appearances.
Was he “playing the heel” when he got domestic violence charges put on him?
I just dont buy it.
I’m gonna need a hell of a lot more proof to disregard what I’m seeing and start believe what your saying.
I dont have a big problem admitting I’m wrong.
But regarding this topic I believe I’m right!
“Just because someone is an asshole doesn’t mean they’re “playing the heel”.”
You’re kidding, right?
If not, you have just gotten more worked then a wrestling fan. 🙂
I know you’re one of the “pro rasslin is for gay inbred retards who sometimes forsake their homosexuality to fornicate with their sisters” types, but a little Google search would show this is 100% correct.
Tito has admitted since the late 90s his persona down to the dyed blond hair (which was too early to be an Eminem tribute) is a tribute to the traditional pro wrestling heel.
Brock Lesnar, despite actually pro wrestling obviously, said after the post UFC 100 ordeal he was going back to his pro wrestling roots to stir the fans up.
Josh Koscheck also admits to doing the traditional pro wrestling heel act and being infuenced to even get into amateur wrestling in the first place because of pro wrestling fandom.
I agree the pro wrestling fans can sometimes be really excessive with the geekdom when they see something in MMA resembling a pro wrestling move or promo/angle. But it is what it is. Maybe the next generation of fighters will be completely removed from pro wrestling, but the good majority of these guys now got inspired to get into amateur wrestling and/or martial arts originally by professional wrestlers and the influence can be seen quite often.
Goodbye and good riddance to the Machida era.
What “era”?
He’ll be back!
He hasn’t dropped so far and its not so over.
I’ll bet you 700 billion dollars he’ll be back.
I’ll be he doesn’t ask for an immediate rematch.
I’ll bet you dont have a 2 dollar bill in your pocket!
Therefor proving I’m right?
What does that have to do with beans?!
Anderson vs Shogun
Somebody make this happen.
I figure if I say it enough places it might have a chance.
Yep, Dana White really did cut Daley and bar him from the UFC. I don’t have any problems with that. What I find disgraceful though is that Nate Diaz didn’t get punished. And he has plans for signing Jake Shields and Nick Diaz. Dana White is a huge hypocrite. It’s OK to be a thug on the broadcasts of other promotions, but not during a UFC broadcast. That’s the message he is sendidng. If that Cesar Gracie gang assault happened in a boxing ring, they would have been arrested. Paul Daley should be arrested as well. The incidence is not as worse as the James Butler incidence. But if Butler got arrested, I don’t see why Daley shouldn’t be.
Prize fight sucker punches have to be much more severe than what Daley did to Koscheck to get the police involved. Just like how Carmelo Anthony didn’t get arrested for sucker punching like Kermit Washington’s much more severe incident in the 70s. He absolutely deserved to get fired and blackballed from the sport, but if I was Koscheck I wouldn’t press charges either.
I’d be shocked if Koscheck pressed charges.
Daley made himself look like a bitch because he is stupid. Koscheck may get under people’s skin, but one thing he is not is stupid. He’ll leave the “looking like a a bitch” to Daley.
He wont press charges.
If there is an argument for anybody playing a role ala “rasslin” its Kos.
he doesn’t seem to be half the drama queen outside the cage.
Here is the James Butler on Grant sucker punch for reference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3D7h5yxOs
Yeah it is more severe. Guy got knocked out. But the intention behind Daley’s punch was the same.
The “era” that Joe Rogan welcomed us all to immediately after his win over Rashad at UFC 98,mate.
Are you talking about the undefeated until last night era?
Yeah, that was a flash in the pan.
mate.
Lots of guys are undefeated. Only one gets to be considered the linear/true champion. Machida held that title officially with one successful defense, and most people thought he should have lost it.
“Are you talking about the undefeated until last night era?”
I wasn’t “talking” about anything.
Mate.
Good article, Zach. Perfect opinion piece to get the conversation going.
“Zach, your a loser and the fact that you repeatedly make reference to, and tout your love for fake-wrestling proves my point. You constant reference to fake-wrestling cheapens this otherwise legit site.”
I can’t think of another time in MMA that a division had a revolving door of champions, and somehow the championship belt still felt extremely important. I think that speaks volumes to how good the division is. It’s a nice contrast to the Middleweight and Welterweight Divisions currently.
I’d describe all the UFC divisions as almost unweildly stacked at the moment.
The biggest hurdle right now is unclogging them IMO.
Kimbo: I dunno. Being who he is, you’re basically running a freakshow anytime he’s in the ring. He’s certainly not there because he earned a spot. If you’re gonna run a freakshow, you go all the way. At least with Toney they aren’t wasting their time with some fight against a nobody heavyweight/light heavyweight – they’re going straight into a Japanese style freakshow with an aging ex-champ. I’m sure Kimbo was paid well and I won’t be shocked if he reappears in Strikeforce soon.
Koscheck is a high level gatekeeper. There’s a million guys like him in boxing and a fair number of comparable fighters in MMA – one of them went tumbling through ropes on HBO the same night. Apparently the most interesting thing about him though is compare him to old strongman competitors and talk about what a great character he is while trying to minimize talking about how we’re going to see a repeat of the first GSP/Koscheck fight in the rematch now slated for 7 months off (ugh).
Koscheck was one takedown away from winning his fight on my scorecards with GSP. And this is when he didn’t expect GSP to take him down at will. The rematch will be different. Koscheck is hardly a gatekeeper. He is capable of bearing the best in the division. Don’t confuse his inconsistentancies with being a gatekeeper.
And he still has one of the most impressive double leg takedowns in the sport. That hardly makes him like the boxers you speak of who don’t excel at one thing in particular.
And everyone is one punch away from winning a title too. Most often than not, they don’t land it. Koscheck got comprehensively outwrestled and controlled for that fight and wasn’t getting any stronger going down the stretch. I don’t see that fight being any different, and I doubt anyone here actually does either. So the takeaway is….Koscheck “cuts a good promo”. Well. Color me impressed.
You can have something that’s singularly exceptional and still never be a great fighter. Cro-Cop was a great striker; never reached the very top. Kermit Cintron is a big time puncher – just never hit the guys that really mattered. David Tua’s the same way. His left hook was much more dehabilitating than Koscheck’s double leg in their respective sports, and he was more successful landing it and winning against top rate competition than Koscheck, who I don’t even think is the #2 contender for the welterweight title.
I would favor Koscheck in a rematch over GSP. Especially the GSP of 2010. GSP is afraid to get hit, gotten a little soft, and has pretty much gotten complacent.
Koscheck has the previous loss to build up motivation for. Now knows that he has to defend the takedown. And he hits harder.
As of today, I would pick Koscheck. That might change by the time they fight in late 2010, but I do think Koscheck wins the rematch.
Well, you’re allowed to have that opinion if you’d like. For Koscheck to win IMO, he would have to land the proverbial “lucky punch” IMO, and honestly, the way he stands and fights, he’ll get banged out long before that punch lands. Alves or Thiago has a better chance of beating GSP. I think the odds will end up being extremely wide – probably 4 to 1 or further by the time the fight rolls around. I think GSP have value up until about 4.5/5 to 1.
Koscheck can win on takedowns or his better power punching. I could care less what the odds open up at. They said Penn was going to beat down Edgar and I knew that was a joke. The odds mean nothing.
I like GSP a lot more then I like Koscheck. But what GSP brings to the table now isn’t what he did a few years ago.
And Alves had no chance against GSP because he couldn’t stop the takedowns. Koscheck is capable of stopping the shots. In their first fight, he was the most resistant to a GSP takedown that we have seen in his UFC career. And this is despite the fact that he went in over confident about his wrestling abilities.
Here is my full prediction on how the fight plays out…
1) It lasts all 5 rounds.
2) Koscheck takes GSP down and grounds him out for 3 of the rounds.
3) Koscheck stops GSP’s shots and punishes him on the feet in the other 2 rounds.
You read it here first.
So I’m guessing this is your way of saying “I will say nasty things and question the loyalty to the sport in regards to anyone who questions the inherently awesome nature of this bout.”
More like…
This is a legit World Title Fight rematch with a challenger who has the skills to give the champion a real run for it.
So it is beyond reproach. Understood.
>With Shogun winning tonight, it is clear that PRIDE’s stars are now the ones keeping UFC’s title pictures interesting to watch.
And it is only a matter of time before American wrestlers such as Jones and Bader will murder whoever the amigos they got in the LHW division. If you have no takedown defense, you won’t make no title defense.
I don’t really see so called “PRIDE stars” dominating in the UFC. “PRIDE Star” means Sakuraba, Takada, Coleman, Otsuka, Fujita, Vovchanchyn, Sapp, Kerr, Ogawa, Crocop, Gomi, Wandalei, Shogun, Gono, Henderson, Fedor, Alister, Arona and Nogueira. None of them have outstanding record in the recent years let alone in the octagon.
The champ and #1 contender for each UFC division:
LW: Edgar, Maynard/Penn
WW: GSP, Fitch/Kos
MW: Anderson, Sonnen
LHW:Rua, Jones
HW: Lesnar, Velasquez/Carwin
In reality, do we see any “pride star” except for Shogun who did not have to fight a non-retired wrestler along the way?
How is Jon Jones the #1 contender in the LHW division? He hasn’t fought or beaten a single top ten fighter yet.
In my opinion, the UFC’s LHW division as of May 2010 is the weakest division ever since Zuffa took over the organization in 2001, probably worse than the MW division when Franklin used to rule a couple of years.
Thanks to the up and coming talents like Jones and Bader, LHW Division is now heading toward more normal level of pro-MMA competition.
You trolling?
Rua, Machida, Evans, Jackson, Jones, Noguiera, Griffin, Franklin, Bader, Thiago Silva….. It’s a stacked division.
>How is Jon Jones the #1 contender in the LHW division? He hasn’t fought or beaten a single top ten fighter yet.
You’re kidding me aren’t you? He just beat the crap out of Brandon Vera who was #1 contender for the HW division not long ago. He’s not just winning, he has destroyed every opponent with his superior wrestling and boxing. Who can you place over him in the LHW division? I would be very surprised if Griffin lasted over 1 1/2 rounds with him, seriously.
Brandon Vera was barely top ten at this point, if at all. What is Randy then, #2?
“He just beat the crap out of Brandon Vera who was #1 contender for the HW division not long ago.”
Yeah and Tim Sylvia was also a multi-time champion and stalwart of the division during that time frame.
Alan, whats wrong with a repeat of the first GSP/Koscheck fight? I thought that was a very entertaining fight, and much more tightly contested than any of GSP’s fights since then. The possibility that Koscheck can land a clean shot over 5 rounds makes it interesting, IMO.
Well, for one, Koscheck isn’t winning. So I’m being asked to pay $54.95 for an event headlined by a foregone conclusion. I’m not big on that, but I suppose that’s what we’d get with a Fitch or Alves rematch (both of whom should still be ranked above Koscheck), so not much I can do. What irks me more is having to suffer through 7 months of delays for a TUF season, followed by what will likely be another 4-5 months of waiting until he finally fights someone that authentically represents a top contender. In short; GSP will not have fought a true “#1 contender” from July 2009 until probably May/June 2011, and we’ll have gotten the joy of paying for those efforts or choosing to watch them through less than legal means. Hooray.
I think Koscheck represents a bigger threat than Fitch, maybe a bigger threat than Alves. There aren’t any true “#1 contender”s out there now, so whats the harm in fighting a guy he hasn’t fought in a while, who will present a legitimately entertaining spectacle?
I don’t know that he necessarily does possess a bigger threat than Fitch or Alves. The difference is, to me, that we haven’t gotten the chance to see Koscheck ground up for the additional 10 minutes. He was lucky enough to only have to go 15 with GSP and wasn’t anywhere near winning the 3rd round of that fight. I think GSP beats them all the same.
But what you said gets to the larger point, which is that the UFC hasn’t really endeavored to create a real #1 contender and no one in the media or fanbase seems to care if they ever do. “Spectacle” is indeed the correct term.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say, Alan. How can the UFC “create a real #1 contender” other than the top guys who we’ve already seen GSP beat? No amount of feeding guys can hide the fact that they are being fed, and make them less interesting as challenges. And when potential top fighters take on the challenges that would prove them to be elite (Thiago vs. Fitch) they lose convincingly.
I simply don’t see how the UFC can change the nature of the fight game. Alves, Fitch, Koscheck, and Thiago are the top guys in the division right now, and the UFC can’t create new top guys out of the aether.
I don’t think I’m speaking in riddles here. The UFC has welterweights and they can fight each other to determine who is the best contender in the division. Things like “rankings”, which appear in every other sports, would help a great deal. Instead, the UFC just picks and chooses on the basis of who they think is most marketable, not who is the best fighter to compete. Paulo Thiago should be ranked ahead of Koscheck for pretty much everyone, yet he isn’t remotely in the discussion of a title shot right now because he doesn’t speak English.
So you are right; they are looking for a spectacle. The key selling point of this fight is not that its necessarily the most competitive matchup, but that Koscheck talks the best trash. I suppose it would mean something to me if I watched PPV hype programs and TUF, but since I don’t anymore, I definitely don’t care.
Alright I ve read too much insight from Alan to stand by anymore. It makes since, but just think your looking at it from the wrong angle.
“Paulo Thiago should be ranked ahead of Josh Koscheck.”
Maybe. He did KO Koscheck after Josh was WHOOPING HIS ASS. He then had a train rid on him by Jon Fitch for three rounds. He is in a situation similar to Damacio Page is in the WEC. Damacio is ranked behind Scott Jorgensen besides defeating him just a couple years ago.
Are you trying to say that he should fight GSP instead of Koscheck. Do you really think he could stop a single takedown from GSP when Fitch took him down at will.
Do you think Jon Fitch should get the shot instead? If so, what makes you think it will be remotely different than the first fight? It hasn’t looked to me as if he improved enough to stop GSP from doing whatever he wants.
Thiago Alves also is ahead of Kos in the rankings, but he hasn’t fought since getting beat up by GSP’s groin. And he is coming off minor brain surgery. So he’s out.
You said on here that Koscheck got thoroughly out wrestled against GSP. I would have to completely disagree. I think he lost in the wrestling department to Georges simply because he did not train his wrestling as much for the fight and GSP surprised him. IF Koscheck lands the double leg in the last round against GSP of their fight he very well could’ve won a decision.
“which is that the UFC hasn’t really endeavored to create a real #1 contender and no one in the media or fanbase seems to care if they ever do.”
You should put big letters IMO after saying something like this. Trying to make it sound like a fact is dishonest, and to me it makes you sound like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
Do you not remember the matchup they tried to make with him and Thiago? It got scrapped because of injury.
The only person that could really be considered for a title shot against GSP is Shields. His contract simply wont be finished by the time the fight is put together. I am much happier watching GSP fight the guy who has given him his toughest test in the past 5 years(besides Serra), rather than sit him on the shelf to wait for a bout with Jake.
And when Jake gets to the UFC you can have him fight Fitch on a card and bill it as a number 1 contender fight.
> Brandon Vera was barely top ten at this point, if at all. What is Randy then, #2?
I don’t believe in MMA rankings. How can you put them in the ranking when they fight only twice a year? Top10 blah blah is a pure production of what Sherdog.com staff imagine in their head. Vera and Couture were both among the best in the world a few years ago and beating either one means Jones could be the next title holder or at least he’s relevent in the championship. I think he’s ready to go to war with Shogun, Machida, Evans, or Rogerio and I believe he beats all of them.
I’m a huge Jones fan. I think he is the future of the division. He is #9 or #10 in the world at bestright now.
I do not understand at all what makes you think Jones is #9 or #10. I am pretty sure that you have no realistic basis to back up your delu..clueless speculation.
Sherdog.com ranks Griffin at No.5 and I can bet 1K on “Jones finishes Griffin under 1 1/2 rounds” any time. Griffin has no technical advantage over Jones no matter where the fight goes. It’s gonna be one-sided and may end before the second bell.
Jones actually has to beat someone who’s a top 5/7 fighter before we go saying that he’s capable of doing all these things. He’s a great prospect, but this sort of uberprospect love has come and gone plenty. Sometimes they pan out (Machida) sometimes they go awry (Anthony Johnson, Vitor Belfort, Mark Kerr, David Terrell).
If it wasn’t obvious before, this idiot is clearly trolling.
Nice to see Rua has finally made it back to his full potential that we were lucky enough to see during his PRIDE Grand Prix run…now people won’t think older fans are crazy when they hyped the hell out of him when he first came.
Another nail in the coffin for the haters that want to say how he was a PED enhanced fighter and that the Rua we saw fight Forrest Griffin is the same Shogun we all saw before that fight.
Let’s see how long he can hold on to the belt now. From a pure gambling perspective, I’d say the over/under of 1.5 is pretty generous.
> Nice to see Rua has finally made it back to his full potential that we were lucky enough to see during his PRIDE Grand Prix run
LOL. The reason why Shogun wears his belt now is primarily because he has not fought a wrestler. When I say “wrestler”, I don’t mean someone who retired 15 years ago. Come on man, a Brit should be smarter than this.
I still don’t understand why in the hell Shogun was granted the opportunity to challenge the champ. He beat nobody except the 2 retired pops. LHW division has been a source of comedy ever since Tito accpeted 2nd fight with Ken Shamrock.
I totally agree, actually. I think there’s a long long list of guys at 205 that take the belt off him. I know he pounded Rampage in PRIDE, but so did Ninja Rua around the same time. I don’t expect that either would be as successful now, particularly if Quinton beats Rashad Evans in a month or two.
Funny – he’s so undeserving of the title shot, yet he arguably (had to) beat the champ twice and did so with undeniable results…the same guy that people were creaming over how dominating he was and how no one was going to be able to find an answer for his style.
@ Alan – with this division there’s a long list of guys to take the belt off of EVERY guy should the situation arise. Whether that’s an indication of depth of the division, unpredictability of mma or whatever, I don’t think that’s really a “criticism” to throw at the guy.
I think there’s a legitimate question as to whether or not 205 is “really weak” or “really deep”. Anderson Silva supposedly can drop to 170 and the way he abused Forrest Griffin in their fight, it looks like he could run shit at 205 if given the shot – too bad we won’t see it given Dana’s aversion to making interesting Anderson Silva fights. Rashad Evans is still in the top 5; still way undersized and probably better suited for middleweight. Machida might actually be in the same boat. There’s a bunch of old crusty guys hanging on to the lower rungs of the top 10/20 like V-Mat, Tito, Liddell, and Couture. Sure, there’s prospects, but they are probably 3-4 wins away from contention.
Pride taking over the UFC? Its one division in which they have a few participants in. And a champion in another (although calling Anderson a PRIDE creation is a bit of a stretch). Where are the pride guys in LW/WW/HW?
Zach,
I remember when Ken Patera leg-pressed a van!
Speaking of Wrestling, when are we going to see Urijah von Erich add the “Tornado punch” to his arsenal?
Good call. Faber looks like a midget cousin of the fabled von Erichs.
Oh, forgot to add.
I think the Strikeforce melee’ didn’t help Daley’s case either.
DW made two excellent tactical moves this weekend.
1.) Cutting Daley. After seeing how the SF melee went down and realizing they’re too hard up to take any meaningful action against the Diaz’s and Melendez…he makes them look bush league and can totally call them out on this and say “see what we did…”.
2.) Cutting Kimbo the way he did – he’s basically branded him as a UFC washout (without looking like a total a-hole and running him down) for anyone else to use. Sure his image can be rehabilitated to some extent and he’ll bring ratings but now he’s tainted as the guy that couldn’t cut it in the big league and won’t look good outside of fighting hand-picked fighters, which I don’t think audiences are going to accept for too long.
I think people here are forgetting that Koscheck fought GSP 3 years ago and he had been fighting for 3 years at that time. His striking is way better than it was the first time they fought. To say he has no chance against GSP is far fetched imo.
His striking is so much better, he’s gotten KOed twice since standing and reverted back to wrestling to be able to win fights against guys not known for being particularly good grapplers. There’s a big gap between Anthony Johnson (unproven prospect) or Paul Daley (kickboxing journeyman) and what GSP is right now.
He reverted back to wrestling against a striker with no ground game. It is called strategy and he did the right thing. GSP has been doing the same thing in almost all of his fights since being KOd by Matt Serra (lol). If Serra can catch GSP on the feet and KO him anyone can. Koscheck has the combination of striking and wrestling to match GSP. He went the distance with him when he was still green in MMA, to say he can’t win is nonsense. He won’t be favored, but he can beat him.
Lots of guys can be imagined to beat GSP. Actually beating him is different. Maybe I’d have stronger expectations of a different result if he had actually beaten one of the top welterweights before being handed this title shot.
Dana may have branded Kimbo as a “UFC washout” to all the diehard MMA fans ( who never needed to be convinced of Ferguson’s limitations anyhow… ), but to the Kimbo fans this past year is just a little bump in the road. Just like his loss to the Boston cop, Petruzelli & to Nelson during the TUF tapings.
I mean, let’s face it, Kimbo fans would probably be willing to watch him lose twice as long as they could be guaranteed to see him knock someone else out in between losses.
At this point, he’s a cultural icon of sorts who’s beyond wins & losses. The people who are “into” him, don’t care what his record is as long as they can see him KTFO someone or slam them on their heads.
Dana may have proven his point & be feeling smug about it now, but he’s basically giving away a proven moneymaker & ratings success. His loss is going to be someone else’s gain for sure.
That’s not going to last forever…he can’t keep losing and keep the internet backyard brawler fanbase. Especially losing (and winning) like he has in the UFC. He’s not even “standing and banging”.
He “drew” so much because these people truly believed he was the toughest street fighter around. Now he’s losing to guys that I’m next to certain these fans think are plugs/nobodies. As ardent as his supporters are, they aren’t going to stick around when he’s losing to the Matt Mitrione’s of the mma world and barely landing any punches. He’s shown his ceiling is extremely limited and unless you put him in there with near cans, he’s not going to be banging guys out on their feet. Maybe those fans will be happy with that type of matchmaking, but it’s a pretty damaging thing for any type of legitimate company to try to do for the long term.
Good points, good points. benefit from expanding it’s
As a lifelong diehard fight fan & someone who’s worked with various promoters in the past, I guess I’m coming from a boxing point of view where a promoters would never even think of ending a relationship with a fighter that puts asses in seats. Know what I mean?
This is where Zuffa would benefit from expanding their weight classes in the UFC & using the WEC as a “feeder” organization of sorts where the pressure to win at all costs isn’t as tough.
That’s a place where they could use a Kimbo Slice.
At least for a while.
In all liklihood, even that level of talent would would leave Ferguson behind, but it would elevate the awareness for the WEC product.