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What’s the motive behind Dana White’s public announcements on Brock Lesnar’s health?
By Zach Arnold | November 16, 2009
That seems to be the question everyone is asking right now, which of course is leading to all sorts of conspiracy theories. “Does Brock have Lyme disease?” “Does he have health problems related to his pro-wrestling days?” “Why is he in the hospital?” “Is this all a media frenzy in hopes of creating babyface heat for Lesnar?” And on and on and on it goes. Hell, ESPN ran with White’s health proclamations about Brock on on their news ticket and at one point the LA Times story about White’s comments were the most-viewed out of anything in the paper’s online sports section — and that’s on a weekend where USC got crushed by Stanford on Saturday at the Coliseum.
No matter how long Lesnar is out of action, the overall depth that UFC once had is suddenly showing strain. The calls to bring in the WEC fighters to work UFC shows will grow louder and louder (as they should). Mike Brown vs. Jose Aldo should be at this weekend’s UFC event — instead, it’s on a Wednesday show most people won’t know is on and will probably lose in the ratings to Central Michigan (Dan LeFevour mania, brother) vs. Ball State on ESPN2 (college football).
Then there’s the prospect of booking Chuck Liddell for the January 2nd show that has… Rashad Evans vs. Thiago Silva and no Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira/Cain Velasquez match-up because Nogueira has a staph infection. Shane Carwin may tempted in fighting Velasquez for an interim title, but if he loses to Cain he will likely never get that title match against Brock. However, Carwin needs to fight and make some money. He’s in a catch 22 here. Fortunately, it sounds like Carwin won’t fight Velasquez due to a grade two MCL strain.
Think Dan Henderson enjoys the leverage he has right now at the bargaining table? If UFC can’t sign Henderson soon, they’re looking at Chael Sonnen vs. Nathan Marquardt. Yeah. At least Michael Bisping is on the comeback trail. Yushin Okami is hanging out with IWGP champion Shinsuke Nakamura at Samurai TV. Ahh… flashbacks to Alexey Ignashov…
Then there’s Rampage, who’s off in movie-land and who wants what he thinks is a fair amount of money to fight Evans in the UFC in ‘010.
As for the Welterweight division, we’re going to see mega-star Georges St. Pierre against a Top 20 WW in Dan Hardy, who looked… well… OK against Mike Swick on Saturday night in Manchester. Jon Fitch continues to draw the short end of the stick due to bad luck and a lack of opponents. Would a new season of TUF with GSP and Hardy as coaches help create new prospects?
Anderson Silva is missing in action and is unpredictable as far as business manueverings are concerned. It’s possible that if things really got desperate for UFC that they could book Randy Couture for the January 2nd event.
Tito vs. Forrest II will pop a nice buyrate, probably 450,000ish, and even though Forrest is a -160 favorite go into the fight there’s a good shot that Tito can sneak out a win here and hopefully add some life to future UFC PPV events.
Simply put, the UFC right now is in desperate need of making new stars fast, quick, and in a hurry. Part of it is their fault, but part of it is also the fault of the fighters they put into make-or-break positions who end up breaking (like Brandon Vera).
And part of it is the health of one larger-than-life individual who right now has management worried that he’s not coming back to the cage any time soon to help them pop a couple of big PPV buy rates.
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According to Dave Meltzer, Carwin’s not a possibility for January 2nd, as with Brock out indefinitely, he took the opportunity to have knee surgery.
“Is this all a media frenzy in hopes of creating babyface heat for Lesnar?”
Zach - No. I think your last two posts on this have been complete rubbish. They have zero supporting evidence apart from you being a smark about things and assuming everyone is working everyone else. I generally love your work but grow up.
Perhaps listen to the latest Meltzer Observer audio show (about 40mins in). Unless you have alternative sources to Meltzer on this perhaps post an update to your post to make it clear what is being reported and what is comment and conjecture on your point.
You’re misinterpreting the opener — read it again. I’m referencing the conjecture that has flooded various MMA sites and boards on this topic and how White’s comments added fuel to the fire.
I did in fact listen to the show you afore mentioned (and have it in the transcription queue, BTW) and I did read all of White’s public comments on the matter as well.
Again I am dumbfounded people are getting angry with questioning “the boy who cried occupational change” could possibly be flaking out on MMA now. I do not believe he is, I will give him the benefit of the doubt right now that he wants to be 100% before facing the toughest challenge of his career. But I would also keep a slightly cynical eye on things because of his reputation. The signs are there: He’s satisfied with the amount of money he’s earned, he wants to go out on top, and things are about to get harder in his career. And when he does things like go to Vikings games looking totally healthy (and I hope they sanitized that horn) you really have to wonder.
And I agree with Zach that both Rampage and especially Dan Henderson look much smarter now. For all the bluster about “DON’T CROSS THE BOSS~!”, well, Dana is going to have to eat some crow now because both are direly needed (especially if Brock outright retires.) Don’t doubt karma, people.
Anyone who wants to renegotiate their contract isn’t gonna have a better opportunity than now, in my book. It would be foolish not to offer Rampage, Hendo, or Silva pay raises to get them back in the cage, because the alternative will get uglier as time goes on. Carwin/Cain might excite a couple internet fans, but the winner doesn’t really end up any more of a draw. They need to face name guys for fans to start to care.
Using TUF for GSP/Hardy I don’t think is something the UFC would want, but something they may have to do for Spike. Oh well. Their call in continuing that show.
“I think your last two posts on this have been complete rubbish. They have zero supporting evidence apart from you being a smark about things and assuming everyone is working everyone else. I generally love your work but grow up.”
Talk about a total failure to comprehend…
1) Dana White’s motivation on talking about Brock Lesnar is very very simple. He was telling the truth to the media. God forbid.
2) Dan Henderson still has no leverage. Zuffa has shown time and time again that they won’t skew out of their business plan no matter what. They didn’t sign Arlovski to a higher contract despite the fact that it looked very risky to let him go to Affliction. Not to mention Henderson is not worth changing the mid tier pay band. Henderson is basically out of Zuffa’s mind until his demands go down.
3) This is just a rough patch. It has happened in boxing and it has now happened in MMA. Sometimes everybody gets injured at the same time. It doesn’t mean panic should occur or Zuffa should do something drastic. At times like this, if they stay the course, they will only strengthen their standing for the next year with a lot if great main event fights.
If Ortiz wins without an injury, he will rematch Couture at UFC 108. It means another non-title
main event, but it will sell strong. And after that, most of the talent should be able to go. So really, only two shows got wrecked from all of this, which is UFC 106 and 108. And 108 is still saveable. All considered, not too bad….
Will Ortiz/Couture risk competing at 108 with only 6 weeks to train?
A loss pretty much cans title aspirations for either one of them…Couture might not be bothered but Tito certainly will be.
I haven’t read any online speculation, but I immediately assumed that Lesnar has Lyme. Lyme + Mono = Bad, bad times
@Fluyid: That’s some of the speculation, yeah. Some have said kidney failure too. Nothing confirmed.
The desperation stuff is a bit much.
They’ll do some weak buyrates through January, then Anderson, Machida, GSP, and others will all start returning and they’ll be fine. They’ll bring back Quinton, etc.
They’re still doing more than fine, they just have one too many shows in December and have no main event for it. It’s not the biggest deal really at all.
Machida is going to bring a strong buyrate? Are people still pretending that Anderson isn’t miffed over money? Someone has to do TUF, and whoever that is can’t bring them a buyrate until July.
Its gonna be a slow couple of months, at least. A lot rides on Lesnar’s ability to comeback.
Machida vs. Rua did 475,000 buys. And there was not much of an undercard in terms of drawing power. Machida is a draw.
Machida drew what has been alternately claimed to effectively be the bottom of UFC buyrates of late, and in the fight, proceeded to be boring and look like the loser.
Assuming the numbers are all true, its impressive that the UFC can get so many buys without having strong pulls on their cards these days. But look historically at what happens when you ask fans to keep buying PPVs like that for prolongued periods of time. The argument used to be that they could at least guarantee a big Lesnar fight soon. Now what is it? GSP/Hardy?
The big picture news story for MMA right now isn’t Lesnar. He is likely to get healthy and fight again. The big story is Concast trying to buy NBC Universal. Personally, I hope the deal gets blocked by the Feds, as it would drive up costs of television if the cable company owned such a major content provider.
But if this deal happens, it could easily change the dynamic of MMA on network TV. It will do so in two ways:
1) Zuffa already has a relationship with Versus who is owned by Comcast. Having that foot in the door already makes negotations easier. This was the case with EliteXC and Strikeforce going from Showtime to CBS.
2) I suspect that CBS won’t sign Strikeforce to a long term contract right now. If you sign them today, tomorrow the UFC reduces their requirements with another station and CBS is instantly the odd one out. The threat of the UFC potentially going on NBC will only strengthen that thought process and have a negative effect on Strikeforce. It is hard to build up when you are working on one went contracts and can’t plan ahead by signing ling term bigger named talent.
The other way this will effect everything is the distribution of digital media online. WEC on Versus could benefit from that.
Obviously there is some speculation in my post, but to me, this is an important long terms news story for MMA. It might never effect the sport at all, but it definitly could.
Honestly, I think Lesner is done.
This is the “flake out” that everyone’s been waiting for, it’s just come a lot sooner & at at a worse time for the UFC than most of us expected.
It’s that same combo of career ADD, greed & sense of entitlement that Lesner’s displayed in every other professional endeavor he’s taken on from the WWE to the NFL to MMA?the UFC.
Zach - and in terms of ill-informed or unfair and hurtful speculation…..http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/11/04/shane-carwin-brock-lesnar-wont-be-fighting-me-any-time-soon/
I think the headline of your latest post given the background of the previous post is well…..ill judged at best.
That’s a bunch of baseless speculation that is nowhere near the fact-based story of the UFC’s main event problems. On one hand we’ve got speculation that the UFC is going to dissolve WEC (Versus’ #1 rated programming) and now we’re going to believe doing that would leave them in good graces to speculatively get an NBC deal? Even if they left WEC around but just took out the top names (Brown, Faber, Henderson, Cerrone, Pulver, ect) the ratings would drop because it would be a glorified farm team promotion.
Plus, they’re on great terms with Viacom so why weren’t they able to parlay that into a CBS deal if NBC will be able to give them something satisfactory?
Every struggling sport on Versus has their fans talking about how great a deal with NBC is and how its going to be a game changer. I don’t think Comcast is looking to buy NBC to give them a bigger venue for shows that do .3 and .4s on Versus. Its a lot of wishful thinking.
Jim - what the hell?
A man collapses and is still probably in hospital and you post something like that? The latest reports are that Lesner training hrough the original illness caused the onset of the more major symptons - does that change your mind at all or is that your definiton of a “flake out” caused by a sense of entitlement?
I think obviously Sports Soup will replace Jay Leno because I just had the idea and wrote it on a comments section so it’s bound to happen. Now let’s go back to ignoring real news stories everybody.
Mark - “Plus, they’re on great terms with Viacom so why weren’t they able to parlay that into a CBS deal if NBC will be able to give them something satisfactory?”
Err… perhaps because Viacom doesn’t own or run CBS?
Err….perhaps Sumner Redstone is still the majority shareholder and chairman of both companies?
“Machida vs. Rua did 475,000 buys. And there was not much of an undercard in terms of drawing power. Machida is a draw.”
I watched that fight with about 15 people. To the casual fan that fight was boring as fuck. Just cuz you got 475k eyes on it the first time doesn’t mean you’ll get that the 2nd time.
UFC 9 got a pretty good buy rate.
If you’re “floating” the “story” that someone is really sick, then they’re either really sick or you’re expecting them to come back a lot smaller than they left.
For the moment, I choose to believe that Lesnar is actually sick. I’m not feeling too good myself (bedridden for the day).
Supposedly, White told TMZ that its something “intestinal” perhaps requiring surgery. Only fighter I can remember having stuff like that snipped was Allan Green: He’s never seemed to fully recover physicaly after having something like 80% of his lower intestine and colon removed. That’s not good.
I’ve seen a lot of people online comparing Shogun-Machida to Holyfield-Lewis, in that the judging controversy will boost the 2nd fights sales. They’ve got their numbers wrong because Holyfield-Lewis I did 1.2 million but the second fight only did 850,000. And since Shogun-Machida was so boring I think the 2nd fight will have a big drop off. It would be one thing if a popular fighter got screwed but Shogun’s fanbase doesn’t fare well past the internet.
“In an interview published Monday, UFC President Dana White told TMZ about Fighters.com’s second-ranked heavyweight and UFC champion Brock Lesnar’s (4-1) medical condition, saying “There’s a possibility Lesnar will never fight again.”
White repeated his previous statements about Lesnar collapsing in Canada while recovering from mononucleosis and added, “[Lesnar] is very, very sick with an intestinal disorder that will require major surgery.””
LOL at Dana–err, 45’s, ridiculous spin attempt. Brock, the company’s strongest draw by far, is out for a long time. Nog is out for a long time. Carwin is out for months. Nobody knows when Rampage is coming back. GSP is out until March. Machida is recovering from surgery. The UFC roster is in shambles, boxing has raped the UFC head to head twice in a row, and the UFC has put on back to back horrid main events.
Brock is by far the most important fighter in mma; he is the only guy who can pop 1 million buys every time he fights. Without him, the UFC takes a giant step backwards. He is worth more to Zuffa than any 3 other fighters combined.
Zuffa wouldn’t resolve the WEC. Just turn it into a true minor league. And never did I say that this while Concast deal is happening because of the UFC. I’m just commenting on how the deal could effect the UFC. And as Chris pointed out, you once again are bashing others while giving out false information.
David M,
Boxing having 3 days a year that people watch the sport hardly has any effect on the UFC. The UFC is getting a strong number of eyeballs 20 times a year if not more. And there is no spin. Despite you people claiming gloom and doom, the UFC will get through this mess pretty much unharmed. Obviously if Lesnar is out forever, that hurts their 2 huge PPV’s per year. But once the Superbowl hits, the UFC is going to have a bunch of fighters available. Not everything is life or death like people like you online try to
make it.
Indeed, Pacquiao just gave boxing some momentum. With him they’ve done something UFC couldn’t: get a foreigner over huge with Americans. If they can pull off Mayweather-Pacquiao faster than I believe is possible (ie next year) then Dana will be humbled (hopefully not old country way.)
Again, nobody is saying UFC is in trouble without Lesnar. They’ve got a consistent base that will keep them afloat. But without Lesnar they’ve peaked and suddenly doing over 600k becomes the new 1.7 million. Unless somebody teaches Kimbo how to actually fight.
Man, you’re all about spinning today. First you’re trying to spin-in NBC/Comcast to deflect UFC’s roster problems, now I didn’t clarify the 2006 “split” and everything is negated from that because it’s “false information”?
CBS and Viacom merged in 2000, split in 2006. National Amusements Incorporated (run by Sumner Redstone) has the majority controlling interests in: CBS Corporation, Viacom, Showcase Cinemas, among other businesses. So they wouldn’t take one successful venture and share it to the other if they wanted you’re saying? They would never work a programming deal like hotly contested rights to CSI reruns or anything. Yep, I was way off base and just wanted to spread misinformation in a debate I don’t even really care about.
The UFC has had quite a few cards which Brock had no part of that still reached in the 800k-1M range in the last 12 months. Off the top of my head, 101, 94, and 92 were all up there.
Brock’s the biggest star, but he’s not the only star. He adds ~800k PPV purchases per year to what the UFC would get without him. UFC 100 happened to be a perfect combination of having two of the biggest draws in Lesnar and GSP on the same card, and being a “historic” event.
Boxing is in the same boat that has been for the last couple of years. 1 or 2 fights that do fantastic numbers, while the rest of the boxing matches wish they could do the same numbers as the worst UFC card of the year.
The UFC has had quite a few cards which Brock had no part of that still reached in the 800k-1M range in the last 12 months. Off the top of my head, 101, 94, and 92 were all up there.
All of those cards had something in common; more than one champion on the card. Now that Henderson and Rampage are gone, they don’t have guys to fill in the cards in between title fights as they did earlier in the year. See also: UFC 108, UFC 109, UFC 110. Of course, they can go ahead and put down Cain Velasquez/Dos Santos as a PPV headliner if they want. They can do whatever they want. I guarantee you they don’t want to do that. But then, if they don’t want to pay those middle of the road guys more, they’ll have to. Or hope that they can ride Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, and Randy Couture for awhile longer.
Now, where have I heard before that being reliant on aging names to sell tickets is a bad thing? Huh.
UFC 101 was the superfight between Silva and Griffin. UFC 94 was the superfight between Penn and GSP. UFC 92 was a ridiculously loaded card that they’d destroy every possible main event for the next half year if they did that now.
Lesnar (and to a lesser extent Chuck Liddell) were fighters you could have a completely mediocre show around and it sold. And you got the benefit of being able to save other big names for other shows. Without that they’re going to have to put together supershows (like Penn, Silva and Hughes all fighting on the same card) to do a million.
And again, there’s nothing wrong for a “big show” getting 600K buys. But the “how high can it go” question people have been obsessed with for 3 years has been answered. And it’s time for Mr. White to come back down to earth and make consistently good shows with what he has instead of trying to hit grand slams 3-6 times a year. That’s all.
Well, we now all know Mark is capable of doing an internet search. 3 cheers for him. Just admit you posted something that was incorrect and move on. No need for a huge paragraph that shows you can do an internet search that has no relevence to the discussion.
I’m not sure why you keep saying I’m spinning stuff. If I don’t want to purchase a PPV, I’m not going to. There is nothing to spin. I think you are living in your little bubble of people that talk about MMA everyday. Most people just see the who is headlining and decide to purchase from there. Couture, Ortiz, Penn, Evans…. Those are all names that can carry events, and will through the beginning of the year. As a hardcore fan, we all know the cards are being pieced together, but that is hardly noticable to somebody who isn’t following what is going on. That means the business won’t be effected much.
With the Jan 2nd card in shambles and they always want it to be a mega card, it wouldn’t shock me if they scrapped the Kimbo vs Alexander fight and book Kimbo vs Liddell as the co-main event and if Carwin can’t go then Cain vs Santos as the main event for the interim belt.
You’re right. I’ll pull it from an Underground post to prove my point next time….
Because you went from thinking Lesnar would carry you to the promise land of network television to writing him off as just another headliner in a matter of months? I and others find that interesting.
You mean people who wouldn’t spin a Machida fight as a success?
Carry as in 400-500K, yes. But what happened to the skywalking glory of UFC being on a rampage of every MMA and boxing competitor on the boobtube? Weren’t they gaining more and more to replace boxing? The air gets let out quick it seems.
lulz. They’ll notice when Carwin vs. Velasquez for the Heavyweight title suddenly happens. When Anderson Silva doesn’t want to fight at 185. When BJ Penn inevitably wants to play more games. When Machida becomes loathed by the casuals again. And when GSP is the only consistently defending champion. And then they’ll ask where that Rampage guy is. “Oh sorry fans, he said a mean thing about me because I said a mean thing about him, he can’t fight here anymore. Now here’s Kimbo Slice vs. Scott Junk! Enjoy!”
45,
it isn’t just a question of whether or not boxing can draw eyeballs several times a year–when boxing ppvs and ufc ppvs are on at the same time, people choose boxing, despite Dana’s protestations that boxers “don’t fuckin fight” and that people want to see “real fighteres” (which apparently constitutes 2 men hugging for 15 minutes on a fence or swinging with their hands at their waists with no skills whatsoever (Junk v Mitrione, which Dana dubbed a great fight)).
Boxing has created megastars at lower weight classes, and is putting on the fights everyone wants to see. Once PBF vs Pac is announced, king of the assclowns Dana White is going to look/feel so stupid. He acts like a child. He is a bully, an egomaniac, and a disrespectful prick. You have never heard Arum say PBF can’t fight, nor Golden Boy say anything bad about Pacquiao’s fighting ability. Yet Dana constantly has to talk shit about Fedor, and because of his ego, he has lost out on the biggest mma pay per view in history. Fedor v Lesnar would have done 2 million buys, but now Lesnar’s career is over and Fedor doesn’t look any closer to coming to the UFC.
All the things that Dana complains about in boxing, like how there is so much corruption, how the big fights never happen, etc., are all more true now in MMA than UFC. Dana wants fans to spend 50 dollars a month to watch shitty pay per views–the interest is gonna wane unless new stars are built. I dont think Tito vs Forrest should be a pay per view. They are both irrelevant to the 205 pound title. After the horribly stupid Anderson v Forrest fight, Forrest is permanently worthless. He has the scarlet letter on him. Tito hasn’t fought in years. The audience isn’t stupid; the fans realize that the main event was scrapped, yet the UFC is acting like it’s the same show and we should still be willing to pay 50 dollars for this shit. Have you seen the highlight package they show from Tito-Forrest 1? The highlights include Tito throwing multiple blocked punches and Forrest screaming between rounds. MMA is a joke if that is a credible main event on a 50 dollar card. I really hope there is no backlash/wane in interest, but Dana is asking for it by insulting the fan base’s intelligence over and over again by refusing to sign the far and away best fighter in the world/always mocking him, and by putting on bad main events.
45 making blatantly pro-UFC, anti-boxing (and everyone else) comments, and pretending its an actual objective opinion, and not a foregone conclusion.
David M.,
Right on.
Your post just saved me a whole lot of typing.Kudos.
So another day another doom and gloom post about how the UFC is in peril blah, blah, blah. I’m sorry but this is getting tired real, quick funny how when the UFC does a great buyrate like UFC 104 did even though everyone swore that event was going to fail there is little to no coverage of it. But if a couple of guys get hurt, then the UFC is doomed and they are never going to recover seriously can we stop with the hyperbole for once.
The Lesnar news is scary, who knows what’s going on with him this isn’t about anthing but wishing the man his best and hopefully he can recover and come back. Aside from that Nog isn’t dead he has staph he’ll recover, thankfully the UFC HW division is stacked and Cain and Carwin will both be ready to go early in 2010 to fight for the interim HW title. The UFC already has several big HW bouts lined up that will help clear out the title picture until things with Lesnar are cleared up.
Luckily for the UFC, their depth is their biggest strenght regardless of what Zach says the UFC has built many new stars. It’s the reason that even their B or C shows make alot more money than SF’s biggest show ever. They know what they are doing and will continue to do so, honestly the sheer depths and insane reaches that the UFC haters go to is embarrasing it’s no wonder I can never take any of you people seriously with all the bullshit that you spew.
“Well, we now all know Mark is capable of doing an internet search. 3 cheers for him. Just admit you posted something that was incorrect and move on.”
Just like you admitted on the last thread that your “Tatame is a reliable source” statement was total BS?
I don’t think Forrest is done as a draw because of the Silva KO. He was able to rebound from Keith Jardine and Rashad Evans knocking him out (and crying like a sissy about it) and the fans realize Silva is deadly when he’s motivated.
But I really wonder how Tito being trashed non-stop by Dana as he took a year off is going to affect his drawing ability. Fight wise he’s way below the entertainment level of just about every other headliner. Tito fights the same way he did 13 years ago: mediocre kickboxing, takedown, ground n pound that never finishes anybody: if you’ve seen one Tito Ortiz fight you’ve seen every Tito Ortiz fight. I’m certainly not excited to see that again. And in 2006 the new crop of fans who didn’t know much were fooled into thinking Tito’s protected fight schedule leading up to Liddell was impressive, but what’s he going to do when Rashad and Griffin beat him and he doesn’t stand a chance at beating Shogun and definitely losing to Machida again. That’s not a fighter with a ton of options.
As for the highlight package, wait until we see what they’re going to come up with for Shogun-Machida II, that will be hilarious. They may be reduced to having to add Batman “BOOM!” “POW!” “BLAM!” graphics to spice it up a bit.
Just imagine how badly Dana would rip boxing if it tried to push a PPV featuring a main event between a oft-injured, semi-retired fighter coming off one less than convincing win, a draw & a loss over the past three-four years VS a fighter that was obliterated in a little over a minute & literally ran from the ring ( cage ) in disgrace in his last fight just months ago …
The patheticness has gotten to a all new level on this website. So I will respond to a few comments, make my own points, and then move one….
QUOTE #1: “Because you went from thinking Lesnar would carry you to the promise land of network television to writing him off as just another headliner in a matter of months? I and others find that interesting.”
I have never said this. I have said that the UFC will lose popularity over the next two years and things will level off. Once again Mark, you are making things up in your posts.
QUOTE #2: “people choose boxing”
This is false. Throughout the year, people choose the UFC. People chose Floyd Mayweather over Vitor Belfort. Who cares? The UFC had TWO 1 Million PPV Buy events within a month of each other. And the rest of the year they are averaging 400,000 buys. I remember a time in boxing when that was considered GREAT to achieve twice a year!! But now the UFC is doing it every month, and now somehow it isn’t that good. Give me a break.
QUOTE #3: “Once PBF vs Pac is announced, king of the assclowns Dana White is going to look/feel so stupid.”
More incorrect information. Dana White said during his UFC 101 Q&A that he wanted to see this fight. End of story. Get your facts straight.
QUOTE #4: “I dont think Tito vs Forrest should be a pay per view.”
500,000 people will disagree with you. Actually, 500,000 purchases, as more then one person will be in the room for the PPV.
And now for my comments…..
1) In 2009, boxing was relevent for 3 days. Two Pacquiao and one Mayweather fight. The rest had absolutely no interest to the non-boxing public.
2) To say anybody in combat sports is a MEGASTAR is a joke. I grew up in the age of Mike Tyson. That was a megastar. Even people who didn’t watch boxing knew who he was. Every single kid knew who Mike Tyson was. Then there was ODLH. He was a MEGASTAR. Pacquiao is not a megastar. A megastar transcends his sport. Manny is his sport, but he does not transcend it. The current day MEGASTARS of sports are Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Tom Brady, etc. Nobody in boxing or MMA really fits that….
3) I have said Pacquiao vs. Cotto was a great fight. Not sure why people think I’m completely dogging on boxing. But I think people have a distorted view of it’s popularity. With only 3 meaningful fights for the entire year (for the casual viewer), buy rates will be up because the thirst is there. But there is absolutely no consistency.
4) Go walk into a high school. Ask 100 12th graders if they have heard of Manny Pacquaio. Most will think you are speaking a different language. Then ask them who Brock Lesnar is…. And most of them know. This is the same for both inner city and rural schools.
5) You UFC Haters always say you want competition. You cry until you are blue in the face about it. Well, the UFC putting on these sub-par PPV’s is BECAUSE OF COMPETITION. This is no spin. UFC 108 should be cancelled after the main event dropped out 3 times. But it won’t be. The UFC puts on a PPV every month to get the casual fans having enough MMA that there is no place for another organization. If the UFC skipped a month, it would give another organization the ability to run an event (even on free TV) and have all the media for a long period of time. Way to think this one through hardcore fans!! Competition costs us more money!! Horray for us!!
Overall, you people talk like boxing is this glorious thing and the UFC is about to fail. Wake up. Even big named boxers talk about how much better the UFC machine is then boxing. They know their own sport is hurting… And yet some crazy fans online know better? Give me a break.
The UFC is in no danger. They would be in danger if another organization was promoting Tito Ortiz or Brock Lesnar right now. That would hurt their bottom line. But injuries is only a set back. That isn’t a spin. That is just a reality check for you peoples….
PS - EJ has it right in his above rant.
Uh, hey EJ, where exactly is this great \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\”depth\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\” of talent of which you speak?
Where?
With Lesner\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’s career in doubt ( for whatever murky reasons … ), the still unproven top contender Carwin on the mend, old Nog on the shelf again, who\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’s left?
After Valasquez & De Santos, all the rest are retreads who have much baggage attached to them in the way of glaringly bad losses due to Joe Silva\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’s \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\”great\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\” matchmaking over the past couple of years.
Cro Cop? Worthless now.
Rothwell? Same thing.
Mir? Kongo? The loser of their match will likely be reduced to a permanent role of gatekeeper/jouneyman opponent.
Barry\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’s already been exposed as one dimensional.
Struve could surprise or he could be being thrown to the wolves again against Buentello.Speaking of whom could\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\’ve made for some interesting match ups had the clueless Silva known what to do with an acquisition like him …
Oops, forgot my last point….
Boxing had boring main event fights for years on PPV. For every good one, there was 3 or 4 bad ones. And that never stopped people from purchasing the next one. What stopped steady stream of PPV’s was the lack of stars.
So this idea that Machida/Rua or Couture/Vera is going to ruin the sport by having a boring fight is funny to say the least. It really exposes the UFC haters at their core. They will find anyway to justify their bashing of it.
Boring fights happen. People know this. As long as stars of the sport are around (like Couture, Ortiz, GSP, Machida)…. The PPV Buys will continue to flow….
And that is the end of my rant….
Sorry 45, but IMHO, in this economy, after this recent glut of fights on all formats of television, this close to the holidays & with these two headliners, I think you’re dreaming about a 500,000 buyrate. I really do.
I just don’t see it happening. Not even close to it.
In fact, I’m predicting a bit of a backlash from it all & there being a surprising, perhaps even shockingly low buyrate for this one.
And this is why I shouldn’t say I’m done posting on a topic…
http://mmajunkie.com/news/16873/anderson-silva-vs-vitor-belfort-title-fight-targeted-for-ufc-109-on-feb-6.mma
Hate being right all the time, but it continues to happen. Like I have said, the only two shows that took it on the chin were UFC 106 and UFC 108. After that, it is back to normal….
And no, I don’t at all consider myself a UFC “hater”.
I just happen to think that as a result of Dana & the boys choosing to look the other way on some things regarding certain individuals that are the “faces” of their organization, their becoming arrogant & believing themselves “bulletproof” business-wise & their continuing to rely on Joe Silva’s horrible matchmaking abilities, that it’s all led to this apparent clusterf**k of a schedule for late ‘09 - early ‘10.
A situation that I will admit to not feeling the least bit sorry for them for.
Really? Because on October 1st in the “Will Kimbo Slice Replace Marcus Jones On The Ultimate Fighter” you said:
Looks like you said Brock was their key to network television.
So a bit ago it wasn’t a problem and we’re all overreacting, but now it gets a rant out of you? And why is competition the problem? Should all stores be forced to merge into one just because sometimes you can’t find the item that you want?
Which fighters said that? And nobody said it’s going to fail, they’re saying they’re hitting a rough period. If Dana didn’t fellate himself over how unstoppable his promotion was, nobody would say anything. It’s Dana that brings the criticism to UFC. When PRIDE was the dominant monster of MMA promotions nobody complained about them on this level. Could it be humility brings respect and arrogance brings distain?
Heavyweight main events, maybe. But, as Alan, myself and others have pointed out to you dozens of times: you don’t respect boxing so stop telling boxing fans what they should like. You said Floyd Mayweather’s fights are boring. Boxing fans don’t. Boxing fans enjoy boxing, not Scott Junk fights.
And this will pull them out of their slump how? This is the same Anderson Silva who only drew once in his career against Forrest Griffin, correct? The same guy who gets 300K for title defenses alone? Vitor has the starpower maybe you’re saying?
Joe Silva’s horrible match-making abilities? Now I’ve heard it all.
You also pretty much out yourself as a UFC “hater” whether you think you are or not.
“All of those cards had something in common; more than one champion on the card.”
I’m not sure what you’re arguing here? The same thing can be said about Brock. On cards without more than one champion, Brock drew 600k and 800-900k. With a fellow champion and the magic 100 number, he did 1.7 million.
“Or hope that they can ride Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, and Randy Couture for awhile longer.
Now, where have I heard before that being reliant on aging names to sell tickets is a bad thing? Huh.”
Those guys don’t pull numbers like you think they do. I’m not even sure where you got that impression. Crazy talk. Liddell only drew 480k for his fight with Rashad. Couture gets talked among hardcores like he’s a draw, but he has never had the numbers to back it up (except with Lesnar), and you can say the same with Hughes. The UFC has almost no reliance on those guys to sell tickets. You’re grasping at straws Alan, it’s rather unbecoming.
You want to know a secret about UFC’s “big” draws like Rampage, Liddell, Couture, Tito, GSP, etc etc? They all do 400k-600k by themselves, and only when you combine together can you get 800k+ buys, with the sole exception of Brock who can outdo the others by 200k-400k. Obviously losing Brock hurts, but not much in the big picture.
I forgot UFC 87, which Brock was in, which also did 600k. So that’s 600k, 600k, and the 800k-900k with Randy.
“QUOTE #3: “Once PBF vs Pac is announced, king of the assclowns Dana White is going to look/feel so stupid.”
More incorrect information. Dana White said during his UFC 101 Q&A that he wanted to see this fight. End of story. Get your facts straight.”
Sorry genius, the relevant Dana quote was after he failed to sign Fedor after calling him a fat slob who fights nobodies (except beating 5 or 6 UFC hw champions), when he said that the difference between boxing and mma is that boxing promoters wouldn’t try to put together Pacquiao vs PBF, whereas he tried and failed to sign Fedor, lol.
UFC does great buyrates for Lesnar and Liddell. They have negative momentum now. Brock is done, Liddell is done, Couture is done as a ppv headliner, Machida lost his tarnish, and GSP is out. I really think Kimbo vs Liddell is a possibility. When that takes place, I can already here you saying how it is good for the sport (whereas Fedor drawing 5.5 million viewers is bad for the sport, lol).
I’m glad you as a 40something year old bald man from Boston know what teenagers like. The fact that teenagers know who Brock Lesnar is doesn’t have any relation to whether or not they know who Manny Pacquiao is. Boxing stars are bigger than mma stars; the sport has a much bigger talent pool, it is more international, gets more mainstream coverage, and is more ingrained in our culture. So yes, Dana, I am pretty sure teenagers know who Manny Pacquiao is.
Calling Dan Hardy “top 20″ is doing him a disservice. He’s beaten Davis who was ranked around the 10 mark and now he’s beaten Swick who was ranked 7th by Sherdog (dunno about other ranks). I would expect him to be ranked above Paulo Thiago in the next set of rankings, who’s currently at 6.
I just want to chime in on one item I continue to see getting oft repeated, that being that Tito Ortiz is/should be considered to be a (big) draw for the UFC.
The guy was constantly tarred and feathered by his own boss in a very public fashion, sat out a year, had multiple surgeries, was “exposed” twice by Liddell (which imho the rematch was a really short sighted and hot-shot booking at the time) and was “fed” to Machida in a move lauded by everyone who “hated” Tito because he dared test his market-value (even if he overrated it, like he does his talent). I’m sure now that they’re really hurting for main-event draws at the moment, the 45’s of the world that thought Dana was brilliant and that was the greatest move ever are re-evaluating what a great idea that was.
But back to my original thought - I’m really wondering how much value Tito Ortiz has in popping buys as a headliner after a lot of the lustre has been rubbed off.
IceMuncher,
Well damn, I had no idea that I had to be a non-critical “fan” of the company’s bloody matchmaker in order to not be considered a “hater”.
I haven’t got the energy tonight to write a dissertation on my beefs with Joe Silva & his work. All I have to do is point a finger at the shambles he made of their top star Chuck Liddell’s career as evidence of his obvious shortcomings.
Or take a look at what he did to Wanderlei Silva & Cro Cop’s careers once they arrived in the UFC. The man simply has no idea how to build, sustain or re-build a fighter’s career.
And no, I’m not saying that anyone should have been coddled or over-protected either. This obviously isn’t Japan where a series of terrible mismatches is an acceptable thing, nor would I like it to be so.
But, look at what the idiot did with regard to Filipovic alone.
He made damned sure that the UFC never even got close to a return on their investment in him.
If you want to defend him, fine, but IMO he’s a sh*t matchmaker.
If he’d done his job properly the UFC wouldn’t be backed into a corner like it is with it’s total lack of interesting contenders for GSP either.
But, rather than being able to keep him busy against the likes of Swick, Marcus Davis etc., he made them all run the gauntlet until only Hardy remains. Meaning the Canadian only fights twice a year.
Would challengers like them have been real threats? Not likely, but they had a history with UFC fans & would have drawn interest in their opportunities against one of the elite.
Now what?
What did Swick’s run lead to?
What did Davis’ build up in the UK accomplish?
Nada in both cases.
Sure, Hardy’s emerged out of the ashes, but then what?
I sure hope GSP’s interest in the ‘12 Games is legit, ’cause barring a move up to ‘85, he’ll need something to keep himself busy.
Hate being right all the time, but it continues to happen.
Haven’t we heard this song and dance before about Anderson/Belfort? I’ll believe he’s fighting when I hear that a contract is signed, and not about this “depending on recovery” garbage.
Ah, so your complaints about Joe Silva basically comprise of the fact that he doesn’t make scrubs look like contenders. The fact that he gives fighters credible challenges instead of babying them is what I like the most about him, but I guess some people care more about title contenders that “look” good than opponents that actually are good.
Crocop lost because he is a worse fighter than Gonzaga. So instead Gonzaga got the shot, which he deserved, and since he’s a better fighter than Crocop it was a better title shot than Crocop would have been (if you look at MMA as a sport not spectacle). Wandy never got a title shot because he can’t beat a top contender.
This all has nothing to do with Joe Silva, and everything to do with the fact that the fighters you have a man-crush on can’t win their way to the title on their own power, and instead require favorable match-ups. Boohoo.
Whoa there, ponyboy, a “man crush”?
When the hell did I ever say ANYTHING about ANY of these fighters being personal favorites of mine? Not once. So piss off with that nonsense.
I was involved in the pro boxing game for the better part of two decades & worked side by side with men like Don Elbaum, Russell Peltz & Mike Acri. Men who’ve forgotten more about building fighters & resurrecting careers than Silva will EVER know.
No, MMA’s not boxing, but the fight game is the fight game & there are ( SURPRISE! ) actually ways in which to build fighters into top attractions destined for big money bouts without resorting to mis-matches.
Silva’s pell mell, sink or swim style has resulted in plenty of good fights, I’ll give him his due, but it’s also managed to ruin what couldhave been much bigger & better contests that would’ve brought his bosses even more $$$ & attention.
Just as an example, given the right preliminary fights, they could have built up a Couture-Cro Cop contest that would’ve been huge.
But, instead, in all his “brilliance” Silva used the Croatian to simply & rather unnecessarily further put over De Silva & he put Couture into a thankless bout with Vera that diminished much of the value that he still had left following his losses to Lesner & Nog.
To what end?
Which is what his major weakness as a matchmaker has always been …
There’s all to often been no continuity from one card to the next & for the most part one could’ve gotten the same results by putting various names in a hay & then tossing them out on the table.
Face it, his work sucks.
Jim - disagree with your philosophy entirely. You talk tirelessly about “building up” X or Y… A horrible, horrible concept. If you win, you build yourself up. That’s the point.
Manufacturing any sort of contender artificially is just beyond comprehension to me.
“but it’s also managed to ruin what couldhave been much bigger & better contests that would’ve brought his bosses even more $$$ & attention.”
The last part of that is true - the first part is not. Building someone up beyond their natural position, as you want to do, is a recipe for worse quality but overhyped contests, not “better” contests… Not better in any way whatsoever.
[...] can either go the Shane Carwin route and apologize or double down and say this is just another Lesnar career flake out in disguise. While I suppose it is possible for a man with a giant dick sword on his chest to check [...]
“…Tito can sneak out a win here and hopefully add some life to future UFC PPV events. ”
But is that a life worth living?!
what a great time to start a fighters union. Strikeforce is appearing to be a little bigger threat than first preceived, Dana is crapping himself because, “he has never experienced such a high volume of withdrawals in his nine years at the promotion’s helm.”
Fighters could get a little of the video game money back that they were hijacked out of.