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The limitations of the CBS/Showtime model for Strikeforce
By Zach Arnold | November 9, 2009
Over at the Heavy web site, Jonathan Snowden has an interview posted with Scott Coker after Saturday’s night show in Chicago. For all intents and purposes, I thought Coker did a good job with the show. Obviously the scheduling situation with the Mark Miller fight being canceled at the last minute on the undercard is a bad move on their part, but it’s the same type of thing that happened to Jay Hieron on the August show where he wasn’t on TV and ended up losing sponsorship money. Does the heat go on Strikeforce or should it go on CBS & Showtime? Probably the latter.
I wrote an article for MMA Memories talking about the problems that Strikeforce faces by being under the CBS/Showtime business model. There was a reason last week why I transcribed the interview Kelly Kahl did with Fanhouse. He talks a big game in terms of what CBS has done for Strikeforce in terms of promotion and either he’s a total spinner or he’s not looking at the ways to promote Strikeforce from multiple angles. Having 10-seconds ads featuring Choi Hong-Man on top of Fedor is not the way to promote him. I don’t care if you ‘flood the zone’ on NFL or SEC football games or not, that’s not effective advertising. When the whole goal is to try to promote new stars, CBS did the bare minimum on Saturday - no interviews from the fighters, a poor ad campaign leading up to the event, and no sense of either CBS or Showtime doing episodic programming with Strikeforce in the future.
If you want to be event-driven only in terms of promotion, that’s fine, UFC is that way, but Spike TV invests countless hours each week to promote the brand. Roger Goodell likes to say that he protects “the shield” (the NFL logo)… well, Dana White and Lorenzo Fertitta do a pretty good job of protecting the UFC brand. Scott Coker, at this point, finds himself at the mercy of what Showtime and CBS want to do. Sure, Kelly Kahl and company can say that Scott is the head matchmaker and that they defer to him on many decisions, but ultimately Showtime and CBS runs the show and not Strikeforce. As the ratings information comes in and we see how things play out both politically and in a business sense, you get the feeling that UFC made the right decision in not immediately giving up control in exchange for exposure on CBS.
Note in the MMA Memories article what Kahl says about the idea of working with UFC in the future.
As for Jake Shields… the only defense I can say for him for his boring fight performance is that he was lucky Chad Dawson was fighting Glen Johnson. Who’s more boring - Shields or Dawson?
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I don’t disagree with you assessment Zach but I don’t believe that CBS is completely sold on MMA thus they have yet to substantive push.
I think they are trying to “Jay Leno” the situation aka grab a lucrative demographic with a limited investment of capital.
What is up with this sudden bombardment of MMA coverage from “Heavy.com”? I would never begrudge a person trying to make a living in their chosen profession, but it must be humbling to have your work appear alongside other hard-hitting journalism such as “What is America’s Sexiest Sandwich?”
smoogy
jon snowden sold them on the idea of doing an mma-dedicated section instead of just the videos from the UFC… jon is heading up the section for the most part, they fly him out to the uFC’s …he writes and also wrangles up other writers, paying gigs not huge money but hey paying gigs are paying gigs… he talked to me about writing but i wasn’t to keen on doing anything anywhere….
Yeah, you gotta give Jon credit as he does a great job getting Heavy.com off the ground. No offense to the other dudes, but they just don’t know MMA like Jon does, nor do they have the connections to the right kind of writers (guys like Zach, Rome, of course myself~!).
Anyway, Zach, the only thing about Shields not being as boring as Dawson is that Shields was on national television in a spot where you could make or break the audience for the main event, and it broke them.
UFC has a TV relationship that’s just completely unrealistic to assume anyone else can get.
There was a perfect storm for them that they blew up in popularity at the same exact time Spike had a bitter parting with WWE. And WWE had their position when they were basically a brand new network looking for a flagship, so in turn UFC became the flagship. No major network would give them as many commercials/infomercials as they please and the ability to program at will. The NFL wouldn’t even get that from FOX or CBS. In a way, the UFC were the lucky guy who happened to be sitting next to the super hot chick at the bar after she had a few drinks trying to get over a nasty break up. CBS’s relationship with EliteXC ended completely differently.
As Zak pointed out, they’re cheap programming and since they’ll be on a dead night for television every other month at the most, as long as they don’t get XFL-level abysmal ratings they’ll give them airtime.
More people celebrated in the ring with Fedor than watched the show on tv. Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone had 14 year job security like Kelly Kahl
A few of my opinion on this topic:
1) I have read people online say the Shields fight was great to watch. I think some people try a little too hard to like something. I fully understand grappling, and that bout was extremely boring for the majority of it.
2) I think it was Mike Rome who pointed out that the entire show was called Saturday Night Fights and barely made a reference to Strikeforce. I would not be happy if I was Scott Coker on that one. That is CBS basically saying we will put anybody under that banner, and we are not willing to build up your brand as a result of it.
3) The direction of the show was horrible. Watching Antonio Silva coming to the cage as they went to break was weird. Rushing all the fights one after another with no real context didn’t help matters. Not having the walk-ins for the MAIN EVENT was a HORRIBLE TV decision. The walk-ins build towards the fight. Even UFC Fight Nights feature the walk-ins for the main event fighters. This is what happens when the entertainment and not sports side handles the show.
4) Another issue was the woman’s undercard fight. The fight lasted a minute. It would have taken 5 minutes maximum to splice that fight into the live telecast. And yet it didn’t happen. CBS obviously doesn’t care about helping Strikeforce build towards their next card. Of course, that fight should have been on the main card anyways, but that is for a completely different discussion.
5) I can’t imagine Strikeforce being back on CBS until at least March or April of 2010. Fedor, Gina, or both will have to be on the show. Fedor alone did not get them great ratings. Being on every 6 months does not build up momentum when the rest of the shows are on Showtime which gets 500,000 viewers tops for a show.
At the end of the day, the UFC always talks about having PARTNERS when it comes to making deals with other companies. Whether it be a sponsor, a video game company, or the network they put their shows on. They want somebody who understands their business and understands what they want to get accomplished. This has gotten them crapped on by many fans for not signing network deals or not doing co-promotion. And when you see a show like we did on Saturday night, it becomes obvious why they make such requests. Without it, the networks have basically no regard for the quality of the product…. They just want to churn it out in a 2 hour block and sell TV ads…..
I highly doubt they’d be on in March with their wall-to-wall NCAA coverage that month. February is very possible since that’s a dead month for them with the NFL and college football seasons being over.
There’s nothing to suggest CBS is dissatisfied with Strikeforce outside of wishful thinking. They gave Elite another show after the 2.0 overall rating the Lawler-Smith show got, and showed no signs of severing ties with them if the stand up incident didn’t happen. Not only that, but they signed another MMA company a year later. That shows commitment to MMA programming. MMA is a hot trend and they’re getting the #2 company in America cheaply.
45 Huddle,
We get it already. You think anything that is not the UFC is utter crap.
We get it.
Save your posts for ufc.tv
The Shields/Miller fight WAS fun to watch. You hate it because it was not in the UFC. If that fight HAS been in the UFC, I am sure you would be here gushing about the awesome display of grappling.
Oh, and listen to the Sherdog “Beatdown After the Bell”. Breen, DeSantis, and Sherwood agree that Fedor beats Brock no problem.
But I know the idea of someone in the UFC “losing” makes you quiver, so I do not expect you to acknowledge it.
Part of the fight, yes. Part of it, no. After the choke near the end of R3, Shields went into protect mode and went for the decision.
After the Lawler/Smith show, CBS gave EliteXC one more chance… Which was the Kimbo/Shamrock card. If that did a poor rating, EliteXC would have been off of CBS regardless of what happened during the fights. So CBS hasn’t exactly been great for MMA. They have shown that they will end it in a heartbeat if they don’t like what they see. That forces the promoter to do some funky things in order to try and get good ratings for every show instead of building a bigger fanbase slowly through like a bi-monthyl type of show.
You are correct about March…. Won’t happen then. My guess is April at the earliest then. They are going to want Gina Carano, and she isn’t going to be available in February….
“That shows commitment to MMA programming.”
That doesn’t show commitment. That shows a network with the oldest demographic of viewers making an attempt to bring in a younger fanbase to it’s programming. They saw the results of Kimbo Slice, and wanted to see if they could do it again with the #1 Heavyweight in the world. They did not strike gold twice. In fact, MMA is more popular now then it was during the EliteXC Era (if there was such a thing), and yet the ratings don’t show for it. With more MMA fans out there, this show should have easily matched the Kimbo rating. That it not a good.
The other issue for Strikeforce and CBS/Showtime is $$$$$. Where do they get it from? Strikeforce already gave away their Fedor/Rogers fight for free on CBS. Fedor/Werdum has no value to anybody. Overeem is completely unknown in the states no matter how the fanboys try and pump him up to be some sort of god. Showtime does have an increased base of subscribers, but they don’t get enough per subscriber to really shell out a lot for MMA. Strikeforce needs to be able to generate revenues to compete with the UFC and to have a big enough front office that they can handle what they are trying to accomplish. Heck, Scott Coker has admitted that he put off negotiations with fighters because he has too much on his plate the past few weeks.
When all is said and done…. SHOWTIME is the one who needs to make the decision here. DO THEY REALLY WANT QUALITY MMA ON THEIR NETWORK?
If No…. Continue to do what they do. Pay little to Strikeforce and then get what you pay for.
If Yes…. Then they need to put more money and effort into it. Pay Strikeforce enough for them to be a real force in the industry. Work with CBS in order to get the broadcasts right, instead of just being a once in a while show to sell some “young people” ads.
Showtime has yet to really commit, and that will always hurt Strikeforce. And I don’t have much confidence in them making a true commitment EVER. If their boxing program is any indication, they will allow this to fall flat on it’s face. Yes, they have the Super Middleweight Tournament, but it is filled with no big names (to the general fans), and is not the typical stuff that they do…..
Jonathan,
Read my first post again. All my critisms have nothing to do with the UFC. I only compare it to the UFC at the end. Each of my complaints are valid and worth mentioning. I know you are trying to blow my comments off as just a pro-Zuffa rant…. But if you take the time to read them and understand them, you will see that there is some logic to them. What happened on Saturday night was not all good.
As for Shields/Miller…. It reminded me of watching Abu Dhabi. Very talented grapplers who put me to sleep. Shields ia a VERY TALENTED GRAPPLER!!! I just don’t find grappling interesting. I wrestled for multiple years, and I fall asleep watching that on TV too. And yet competing in it was the ultimate rush for me. What is great technnically is not always great visually.
As for Sherdog…. I’m not sure why anybody puts any weight into their opinions. Breen talked for about 10 minutes to start off the show praising everything possible, and completely leaving out the major issue. We all know Sherdog’s angle. They have overly pumped up every single organization that has tried to compete with the UFC. From the IFL, to EliteXC, to Affliction, and now Strikeforce. They go crazy on their amount of coverage and fanboy out thinking this with be “the one” that finally makes the UFC hurt. It’s as laughable as Josh Gross’s opinion at this point…
When the whole goal is to try to promote new stars, CBS did the bare minimum on Saturday - no interviews from the fighters, a poor ad campaign leading up to the event, and no sense of either CBS or Showtime doing episodic programming with Strikeforce in the future.
Two quick points:
-Fedor being who he is makes himself less accessible than Kimbo. Kimbo did about everything imaginable leading up to his CBS debut, up to and including the Country Music Awards. I remember lots of criticism that it wasn’t effective at the time. In retrospect, that hype made him. Clearly, it was Kimbo who brought the viewers to TUF, not the other way around. And without him, those viewers are gone.
-The criticism of it not being given the appearance of “episodic” seems an odd one, as this is pro fighting and thus is not episodic. Its like when you see people point out that the UFC is making a foolish move by being so reliant on revenue generated by their events, as if there’s some sort of substantial alternative product they can produce. They’re a promoter and distributor of mixed martial arts bouts. They can’t corner the market on fighter apparel nor is it likely that it would be a revenue stream approaching that of other team sports if they had some sort of method to do so. Equipment sales for MMA are minimal compared to stick and ball sports. Hell, they’re probably minimal compared to entry level racing. It seems to me that people have very unreal expectations of what these guys should be doing.
Regarding heavy.com, I think it’s a matter of perspective. K. Thor Jensen, who wrote the sandwich article, is a phenomenally talented writer and artist. I am honored, seriously, to be in his company. If anything, he should be upset his material is next to “cagefighting” articles.
I hope you will give heavy.com a chance. They have just started covering MMA and we’ve already had interviews with some of the biggest names in the sport like Dana White, Fedor, Shane Carwin, Matt Hughes, Cung Le and dozens of others.
Jeremy Botter is breaking news all the time and we are adding talented and opinionated writers, some of whom Dave mentioned. I hope by next year no one will remember a time heavy.com wasn’t part of the scene.
Zach, could you expand more on the ratings they got and why they aren’t looking great? I don’t disagree at all, I just want to hear what you think.
I am longtime BJJ practioner, the shields fight was exciting for me. Shields and Miller are both great grapplers so it’s nice to see them get on the air versus glorified toughman’s junk we sometimes have to bear through.
I don’t think anyone runs through Lesnar at this point until I see it. Fedor is defintely the top dog, but Lesnar is interesting match-up for anyone.
If Rogers is a free-agent, will the UFC go ahead and sign him? Assuming they are following the WWF model as we are always told, I would assume they will try and pick up anything of value from Strikeforce and pick apart their roster for anyone of value.
I’m really sick and tired of supposed fans of MMA calling matches decided on the ground boring and praising sloppy, pseudo kick-boxing fights. Grappling is, realistically, 75% of the MMA world when you consider ground and clinch work on top of the striking game having to always be aware of the potential for a takedown or a clinch. If you don’t like grappling, watch boxing or kickboxing, but don’t call yourself a fan of the sport if two guys putting on a ground clinic for 25 minutes bores you. It’s the equivalent of calling yourself a fan of chess but hating when people use their Rook.
Amen. Look at what happened with Sean Sherk. I loved his old smash mouth style. The Franca and Florian fights were pretty cool to watch. I was sad to see him lose to Edgar in the manner he did. Even worse was Stevenson for not standing and banging and relying on his grappling.
I’m a fan of MMA grappling, not pure grappling. Watching Shields have Miller in the sitting position and nothing happening for a minute is not fun to watch.
Compare that to BJ Penn’s MMA grappling which incorporates solid striking and absolutely beautiful use of his legs to trap the arms to apply the rear naked choke… And that stuff is a thing of beauty to watch.
I find it funny how people hear somebody doesn’t like grappling, and their first reaction is to say it is better then toughman striking. There is a middle ground….
Like Zach said, the first 3 rounds of the Shields/Mayhem fight were good. I thought they were awesome. Shields got very conservative after the choke, but it’s hard to blame him.
Strikeforce needs to pay Miller and Davis their full win bonuses, period.
45,
Shields in has a very positionally dominate game. He manhandled BJ Penn’s training partner in an earlier Elite XC show. Again Shields is ton more fun to watch then watching some wrestler try to play kickboxer all the sudden.
45 Huddle said:
So…You want Jake Shields to put you to sleep?
That’s a really great mental picture!
(j/k 45, you know we all luv ya, I just couldn’t resist)
It seems like CBS/Showtime is interested in making money (gasp). They are in fact doing so in an acceptable fashion - paying the least to make the most. However, I think we can all agree they have a ways to go in their production.
I remember articles (some on here) that have attributed creative control a reason the UFC hasn’t signed a similar deal. There might be a point to that.
But the UFC has had since the early 1990s to sort out production. I’m all for the new guys on the learning curve. I mean think about the enormity of it! We all got to see the baddest man on the planet fight for FREE on NETWORK TV! There are bound to be a few kinks for the first dozen or so shows. Like the non-live feeds, but that’s an entirely different topic.
Bottom line - more fights on free tv can’t be a bad thing for the sport.
Have to go with GassedOUt, let’s give these guys some time to make the show prettier. If anyone happened to see the Valuev-Haye boxing US PPV broadcast on Saturday afternoon they know the Strikeforce production was top notch compared to where it could be.
I really enjoyed the Shields fight, maybe because I spent time training in grappling. It was surgical and highly impressive, though I can agree completely it went on longer than necessary. Does this mean I’m trying too hard?
Showtime does great things in boxing despite being the second tier player. Trust me if they carry out this role in the same manner for MMA then we are in for many years of solid fights, and thankfully close to ZERO of this showbusiness star-making building that many here seem to enjoy more than the fighting.
3 interesting posts by mmalogic on this topic that I thought were a different perspective of looking at this…
“well it also hurts ZUffa that the best fighter in the sport came in last place in the timeslot… against reruns.”
AND
“the overrun is also a seed somebody is planting… counting the people tuning in for their local news is just more spin.
It only matters in the context of: “x number of people saw Fedor fight” which is true and valid… but if you want to know the real number this special GENERATED (which CBS knows) you look at each frame of the ACTUAL time slot.
CBS and Advertisers purge the usual viewers by demo in the overrun to get the real number which isn’t mentioned in the press releases”
AND
“When a first run special loses 2.5 million usual viewers (which is produced by shitty reruns) and comes in last place in the time slot It’s a hard pill to swallow if you’re a network exec.
With the demo gains If they would have simply broken a 5m average it would have been enough to get to the next show.
I think Scotty’s gonna have to put together an even better package for CBS to revisit this.
Mike Rome was right, Gina’s the winner. Her value has just shot up to around 500k per fight.”
I love to watch MMA in all aspects of the fight standing, clinching, or on the ground. With that being said the Shields fight was boring after the 3rd round. If you are in mount/back mount for 90% of the round 4 and 5 you better be able to put your to sleep or tap him out. This like the Machida Shogun fight was a not that good.
Also I agree with marlowe, I dont thin anybody “runs” through Brock at the moment. That is not to say he can’t be beaten or that Fedor wouldn’t beat him. I just think that Brock would pose problems for Fedor on the ground just like Rodgers did because he was so big and strong. Plus we are talking about Fedor now, not Fedor when PRIDE was still number one. He would have to get Brock in a leg or ankle like Mir did or knock him out. But all of that is easier said then done when he puts his 285+ frame on you. Again I dont want to be called a Brock lover or a Fedor hater people just need to realize the Fedor is not what he once was and short quick wrestlers are going to pose him problems. I still want to see Couture v Fedor. I think that would be a great fight even with Randy on the decline.
I think that StrikeForce has a lot to work on for their CBS shows. I think the commentary was sub par for a StrikeForce show. Also the need to get rid of the WWE style ring entrance. No need to announce fighters entering the cage if you are just going to do it again in 5 min. when they are both in the cage. Pointless waste of time. Also I think it would be good for StrikeForce to go a full 3 hours and show prelims to fill time. With all of the being said I hope they do another show but they need to consider doing it in the next 3 months or they will quickly become like an Award show. People watch it then forget it because it doesn’t stay relevant. And you can’t say that the shows on ShowTime keep it relevant because of the limited viewer ship.
And people need to get off of the UFC heater band wagon. Just because someone says that this show was not on the level of UFC does not me they disliked the show. UFC is the benchmark of what an MMA show should be like. Same when for the UFC when they were being compared to PRIDE. If you are not the best you are being compared to the best
I thought that the first three rounds of the Shields/Mayhem fight were very good, but then of course it slowed considerably in the last two rounds. I’d certainly rather watch the highly skilled ground fight that Shields/Mayhem put on for three rounds than watch another Jorge Gurgel sloppy kickboxing match.
Also, the average number of viewers for the broadcast as a whole was 4.04 million.
“The final Nielsen ratings are in and 5.46 million viewers tuned in Saturday to watch Strikeforce and M-1 Global’s main event between Fedor Emelianenko vs. Brett Rogers from 11:00 pm to 11:15 pm ET on CBS.”
Looks like a pretty good spike for the main event…5.5 million viewers.
The last 15 to 20 minutes got 5.46 Million viewers. The real question then becomes, as mmalogic pointed out….
What demographic turned in for that last 15 to 20 minutes? If those additional viewers were a younger audience, they could have been there to see Fedor. If they were 50+, those are just people waiting for the news to come on and doesn’t really mean much.
As a reference….
Kimbo Slice vs. James Thompson got 6.51 Million viewers. Kimbo Slice vs. Roy Nelson for an entire hour of TUF got 5.3 Million.
Desperate spin to make this look like anything but a success…
LOL 45 got owned again
Mr. Snowden, I’m all for more original, competent MMA reporting and analysis. I enjoyed the 10 questions with Scott Coker and your thoughts on Henderson’s free agent status. I guess I was just curious about that site popping out of nowhere. I assume it is a new “portal” aimed at younger people. If the sports section is MMA only for now, perhaps an mma.heavy.com subdomain is prudent? That way I don’t feel like I’m going to the Maxim homepage to get my MMA coverage?
45 Huddle: Aren’t you going to rip Josh Gross a new a-hole given the ratings results? He was off of his prediction by a whopping .04 million.
Didn’t he say anything below 5.5 million would be a “massive disappointment”?
Regardless, it’s a good rating. If you took out Shields/Miller and had one of the Carano fights from the Kimbo shows this probably would have beaten the Elite shows.
This is ridiculous. Gross was off by 0.7%. The Nielsen margin of error is 4%. Are people that hard up trying to find points of criticism?
I’m not trying to rip Gross, but it wasn’t a prediction, he set a baseline below which would be considered a major disappointment. Unless the only two possibilities are major disappointment and success, there must be something in the middle. I think he set the bar too high for what is a disappointment.
I think for CBS the total numbers are middling but the main event growth was great. Just shows they need a second draw to reach the Kimbo numbers.
smoogy,
Heavy.com is actually a site that is 10 years old. They have been entertaining (literally) millions every month for a decade with their videos. I can excuse you for not knowing them, as I didn’t know them either!
Agreed that a subdomain and plenty of other changes would be prudent. I am working hard to make it a place that will be useful, fun, and not embarassing for fans. We’ll see what happens!
Mike,
At the end of the day, is Josh Gross the determining factor for whether this event was a success or a failure? While I agree that his internal inconsistencies may be on display, it is largely irrelevent. I should also point out his writing remains spectacularly good.
http://www.heavy.com/sports
Should avoid any unsavory content..
Where can I click for only unsavory content?
I think a good way to look at this is regardless, a ton of people saw Fedor fight live.
Couple of random thoughts I had about CBS’s production of the show.
As I said before, I thought the lighting was great and great camera angles. Both of those were way better than UFC broadcasts. CBS sports has a very talented team. The director needs to bone up on MMA a bit, lots of shots of the referees’ backs that could have been avoided.
I think going forward they’ll probably schedule 2-3 live fights per event and use more taped fights so the broadcasts don’t run long.
Also if you just randomly flipped on the TV, you were watching Saturday Night Fights on CBS. Strikeforce looked like another sponsor with their add on the canvas. With that hideous, idiotic logo of theirs. That’s a tangential point and one we can talk about in the future. That logo is so bad it should be taught in marketing classes as a what not to do.
The point being, CBS treated fighting the way it did college basketball. It focused on the fighters, not the promotion. They’re setting up to do what HBO and Showtime did with boxing. You tune in to CBS to show MMA, they’ll let any promoter who can put on a good fight have a date. Coker better keep an eye on Jerry Millen and the rest of the M-1 staff.
Ultimately I see MMA as being Saturday afternoon fare on TV. The way boxing was back in the 80’s. Maybe with an event per month or so From January to September. Then when football comes on TV you get one or two primetime shows in the Fall. I think that can be a successful model.
Well, his baseline and this number are statistically even. Its not a massive disappointment by his standards, and its not a runaway success that will change the world forever. Its something inbetween, like the ratings news has been the whole time.
I almost think the people that believe the additional 1.5 million people that tuned in at 11pm are trolling. That or they are just not smart.
It is clearly people turning on their local news at 11pm.
What’s funny is I wonder how many of those old folks who love the 11pm news are going to write their local stations complaining about seeing a man with a broken nose almost knock the head clean off another man. They’ll write about how offended they were by the violence and how inconvenienced they were not to be able to hear about all the awful news on their local broadcast.
At the same time, I wonder if some of the old timers tuning in for the news will become MMA fans now. I bet some will. My grandfather, God rest his soul, was a huge boxing fan. He stopped following in the 90’s with all the corruption. But he’d still talk for hours about how you could walk down the street in Bay Ridge and hear a Joe Louis or Rocky Mariciano fight on the radio your entire walk. If he flipped on the tube and saw Fedor KO Rodgers, I’m sure he’d have called me up and asked when and where he could see more of this.
Kimbo Slice’s first big number was a overrun. Matter of fact, this entire thread of discussion the last week or so is eerily familiar.
How did I get owned here? I understand what your argument is, but it is so way off base.
Overall, this rating is BAD FOR THE ENTIRE SPORT.
1) If the rating was closer to 3 Million for the entire show, the UFC could easily make the case that it is their brand that sells and work that angle.
2) If the show got 5 Million viewers, the UFC could easily make the case that they could add an additional 2.5 Million to 3 Million viewers and make it a real blockbuster.
This is an inbetween rating that makes it hard for Zuffa to use either one of the above mentioned.
So now we are left with:
1) Strikeforce likely not going to be back on network TV until Gina Carano is available.
2) UFC losing negotiating power to get a good network deal.
The sport loses in all directions.
“45 Huddle: Aren’t you going to rip Josh Gross a new a-hole given the ratings results? He was off of his prediction by a whopping .04 million.”
Gross is a fool. His opinion means little to nothing.
“Regardless, it’s a good rating. If you took out Shields/Miller and had one of the Carano fights from the Kimbo shows this probably would have beaten the Elite shows.”
Except they didn’t have her, and this is the rating that everybody is left to ponder with. Not to mention that the sport is far more popular today then it was 2 years ago. With inflation taken into account, this was not a success.
I love it how people try to spin things…. This wasn’t a success for Strikeforce. This hurt the UFC. There is no other way to say it truthfully.
“With that hideous, idiotic logo of theirs.”
At one point when one of the fighters was on the ground over the logo, it really looked like his blood splatter. Not good.
“Coker better keep an eye on Jerry Millen and the rest of the M-1 staff.”
This is very true. CBS shows little care of what company they have MMA with at this point.
LOL @ 45’s meltdown. Who will console the widow Zuffa?
“Kimbo Slice’s first big number was a overrun.”
I’ve addressed this, Kimbo’s big number is also inflated by local news. Kimbo’s real draw was 10:30-11. The credit Gina is given for brining viewers on that show should really be attributed to Kimbo, since that is when he would have fought if the show were running on time.
Interesting responses today. First I got owned. Now I am having a meltdown.
How about I’m just discussing MMA… Geez….
You own yourself by making half the posts on this website without even getting paid. I don’t even bother reading your posts anymore because it’s obvious what they’re going to say.
The second you get paid to do something, it takes the fun out of it. So not sure why I could care about that. Keep to the topic at hand. People just want to insult me lately instead of talking about the content.
Considering you jumped all over Gross’ assessment in the last thread, I figured you might have something to say now that his 5.5 million threshold has proved to be pretty much dead-on.
“With inflation taken into account, this was not a success.”
Classic.
There was nothing else to add about Gross that I didn’t say in that post. What’s the point of discussing it more? It is still true now.
As for the inflation comment. It’s true.
1) The sport is more popular today then it was 2 years ago. PPV Numbers can back that up.
2) The SF card got below 2 year ago numbers on CBS.
The combination is not good.
“The second you get paid to do something, it takes the fun out of it.”
LOL now that’s some terrible advice
Man, such rich comedy all over this today. I don’t even know where to start, so I’ll just leave it alone and giggle at the damage control. What more can anyone add anyway?
oh come on mark… enlighten us with your superior thoughts….
Interesting article over at MMAPayout:
(http://mmapayout.com/2009/11/mma-television-ratings-comparison/)
TUF 10 (season-to-date = 8 episodes )
Men 18-34 — 3.52 rating
Men 18-49 — 2.9 rating
Men 18-24 – 3.7 rating
Persons 18-34 – 2.4 rating
Strikeforce/ CBS 11/6
Men 18-34 — 2.3 rating
Men 18-49 — 2.5 rating
Men 18-24 – 1.7 rating
Persons 18-34 – 1.8 rating
I find the timing of Spike’s comparison to be pretty comical. I guess their counter-programming got thumped; it doesn’t look like any press release on those ratings is forthcoming. I guess they’ve still got to find some way to claim an empty victory, even if it is based on the performance of The Kimbo Slice Show. What the comparison tells me is: Fedor has become one of the biggest stars in MMA.
How hilarious would it be if they brought Kimbo in as a coach for season 11?
In regards to the post about how Kimbo’s credit shouldn’t have gone to Gina, the post is mistaken, Gina’s fight was not in the immediate half hour before Kimbo went on the air, Lawler-Smith went on after her and before Kimbo.
Bashing a number for being an overrun is meaningless. The number is an average, if some viewer that didn’t intend to watch fighting turned to the news and then stuck around for the entire fight, that’s even better than someone intending to watch it. And if they didn’t stick around it wouldn’t have much effect on the rating.
The big winners are Fedor and Gina. If Fedor is really out up to 8 months, who can Strikeforce possibly headline a CBS show with in the interim?
ANSWER: Nobody until at least April.
smoogy said: “What the comparison tells me is: Fedor has become one of the biggest stars in MMA.”
God, you are really reaching towards the stars on that comment.
“The number is an average, if some viewer that didn’t intend to watch fighting turned to the news and then stuck around for the entire fight, that’s even better than someone intending to watch it. And if they didn’t stick around it wouldn’t have much effect on the rating.”
How does a 60 year old woman sticking around to watch the news help out CBS’s advertisers for the fights when they were basically all geared towards a 24 year old male? It’s a serious question.
So you’re telling me a 60 year old woman tunes in at 11 for the news and watches a MMA fight with blood in a cage all the way until 11:25 waiting for the news to start? Have you ever met a 60 year old woman?
The fact that Marloes Coenen is going to be the next challenger for Cyborg makes it all the more stupid for them to have put her in a prelim slot… and it only gets worse when you consider that they could have easily aired her one-minute-long fight somewhere on the CBS broadcast, but they didn’t. Putting Coenen’s fight on the prelims: It seemed dumb in theory, and it ended up being even more dumb in reality.
The bump is from people calling their friends and telling them to turn on their TVs because Fedor was about to fight.
Re: Shields-Mayhem, that fight was pretty awful the last 2 rounds. I think Shields needs to stay at 170 where he will be much more effective. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a 5 round fight with less violence. Thumbs down.
Anyone seen salary info on Fedor yet? Just wondering how he “got a better deal” then what the UFC was offering. I would think M-1 is trying to establish there brand for future in the US with the Strikeforce deal. However, with an aging Fedor I wonder who they will hitch their wagon too. I hope he fights in the UFC before too long, given what happened with Mirko and Nogeriua coming in possibly past their primes. Dana will have a field day is Fedor loses….
So 1.5 million people called their friends to watch a fight? This thread gets even funnier.
My grandmothers and their friends talk about the news very seriously. They have their favorites and the ones they can’t stand. Anddont even get me started on their opinion of the weathermen!! So from my experience, I would say it is very possible they turned in and waited. That’s how they are. Haven’t you ever sat through some stupid show to wait for your program?
Come on Mike Rome…. You act as if you’ve never been around an ok’d person before. They are extremely rigid in their schedule.
What I can’t believe is that the argument is over numbers and why they happened. The truth here is that no one will ever really know, and all they can do is make educated guesses. There are simply too many independent variables to make statements about WHY these numbers happened. One of my thesis advisors in university had a book on his shelf called “how to lie with statistics.” Leave the innocent numbers alone! They are people too! (LOL)
I think making predictions of doom for Stikeforce here are out of line. It’s one show, they have a ways to go in a great many areas.
Making predictions about how this is bad for the UFC is out to freaking lunch. The number of third and fourth order effects that come into play to make those statements true are statistically impossible (unless you’re 45 Huddle apparently), and that’s no lie. (Honestly, 45, I have nothing against you, but what you do on most of these threads is nothing short of demagoguery, and it’s mostly a pain to read. http://www.reference.com/browse/Demegogery if you need to look that word up.)
Does Dana White have to worry? Yes. I believe him to be a fool if he doesn’t. Is this a win for Strikeforce? Not enough data to answer the question based on a single, not-so-greatly produced, night of good fights! What that means in the final analysis is that we need to watch and see, as usual.
I’ve seen comparisons like this before. Some are off base, some are not. Only time will tell in this case. Well, that and how the bean counters at CBS will interpret the results, and I don’t know if I can comment on that particular crapshoot.
Ok.
How about bwahahahahaha. “This is an inbetween rating that makes it hard for Zuffa to use either one of the above mentioned.” bwahahahahahaha. That’s the funniest thing you’ve ever written. This whole page is all kinds of hilarious.
Now hold on. 10 million people got notified to watch Griffin-Bonnar according to what Dana White told Joe Rogan through his earpiece to say. That’s believable, but “Hey, the Fedor fight is finally starting and that wet blanket fest is finally over” from a fraction isn’t? Hmm.
But anyway, let’s get back to the theories grandma’s across the country were transfixed on a Russian man’s bleeding nose and couldn’t change the channel.
The best part of this is the quantum leap in logic 45 makes regarding how its overall bad for MMA because it doesn’t help the UFC’s position on a network deal. That’s remarkable stuff.
Yes, that whole post was great. I thought his peak of inane comedy was complaining about Sheilds’ back-ne (*cough*Tito Ortiz*cough*) but he tops it.
By not waiting until the real rating came out before you and others started claiming victory? Didn’t you notice even Dana White didn’t say anything? And he’s never met a gloat he didn’t like.
OMG he used caps he’s not screwing around folks~! Yes, it’s horrible when millions of people see a good fight. I couldn’t sleep all night after I found out the rating last night.
More like networks would think MMA only works on cable (like pro wrestling which they still equate MMA to) and not want to fork out significantly more money for UFC’s shows.
Then why couldn’t they make the case they could add 2.5 or 3 million to 4 million?
So funny. Translation: “Damn you for not failing, Strikeforce! Now UFC won’t be able to get the unrealistic deal they have with Spike against a real network with leverage of their own!”
Hooray for speculation.
That is nice and optimistic. What about ABC, Fox or NBC saying “Hey, if the 2nd biggest MMA promotion did that, what would UFC do? Let’s negotiate.”
Nobody loses but those who prematurely celebrated a bad rating.
You know, this has been such a parody of 45 Huddle’s gimmick I would not be shocked if someone else was jokingly writing under the name. Or were the “I don’t want Strikeforce to fail” posts the jokes?
So far you have as much
proof as I do as to what age demographic turned into those last 15 minutes…. And yet you laugh at me for my comments?
At the end of the day, the no matter how much the Fedor lovers try and make this a great thing, it isn’t. It failed compared to reruns. And it failed enough that the demographic difference is going to be shard thing to justify.
Yes. I find it hilarious that you think they’d stay tuned in for 15 minutes for a bloody fight if they don’t like it. And if they did like it, who cares what age they are? My father is in his 60s and absolutely loves MMA. His viewership is worth less than a 20 year olds?
1) Your idol Kimbo Slice also “lost to reruns” since EliteXC didn’t win their nights either.
2) You’re right, it’s terrible that it looks like a little bit older of an audience might start liking MMA now. It’s going to be awful for respectable advertisers who don’t give money to shows for broke 20 year olds to maybe get interested. What are we going to do without all those stupid horror movies and junk food ads that UFC gets! BIZ BIZ BIZ DEMOS DEMOS DEMOS!
Yes, a 60 year olds viewings us worth far less then a 20 year olds. About 40 years worth of purchasing power. Any more stupid comment as you try and make your point? At least get basic concepts correct first before you bash others.
As for Kimbo, I have never praised him. I have been in awe of what ratings he cam bring in on cable tv, buy that is the extent of it. Now you are just making stuff up.
You can try and dusect the ratings all you want, but bottom line is the UFC can and has gotten more viewers on cable. That is horrible for SF.
Oh yeah I forgot I was talking to the guy who only cares about business. You see, I want human beings in general to enjoy MMA and don’t care if they’re 12 or 112; male, female or hermaphrodite. But that’s right, you only care if they hit the market demo so the company you don’t make any money from generates targeted ad revenue from the television network you don’t make any money from.
So far you have as much proof as I do as to what age demographic turned into those last 15 minutes…. And yet you laugh at me for my comments?
He should. You’re admitting you have no evidence that your assumption is correct, and then you assert that there are unassailable truths that have emerged as a result of the evidence that does not exist which purport does and must. Then, you take those self proclaimed truths based on blind assertions, and use them as a jumping off point for even more wild claims, which you bolster with more poorly executed logic (see: “inflation”). Its amazing to witness.
You know, maybe he’s right. Maybe all of those confused old geezers thought they were seeing footage of a race riot on the local news and wanted to know where it was so they could board the windows and barricade the doors if necessary.
When did I say confused? People without DVR typically sit through another program finishing to see what they wantto see. Is that so hard to grasp?
When did I say confused? People without DVR typically sit through another program finishing to see what they wantto see. Is that so hard to grasp?
In the case that they would watch cage fighting for almost 30 minutes to see local news without changing to a competitor, its rather absurd to believe. But we’ve been down this road before.
If this was the first time the news was preempted in the history of television, maybe you’d have a point. Otherwise “Hey, since my news caster has never had a bloody nose on air this must be an overrun of that MMA stuff I don’t like. *click*”
LOL @ thinking the 1.5 mil bump is people trying to tune in for the news. Wasn’t the Jens/Faber fight the biggest WEC fight of all time? That one went on after the alloted timeslot. I know because my DVR cut off before the first round started.
Same goes with Kimbo/Thompson. Let’s throw that rating in the trash. Obviously it was artificially boosted by whoever was tuning in for the program after the fights lol.
But but but but, there’s no news on Versus so it doesn’t count! People knew exactly what they were going to see then!
You guys shouldn’t get worked up over 45’s posts. He is clearly a gimmick. Nobody with an iota of sense would say that a bunch of retirees would sit through half an hour of cage fighting to see their local news of choice. LOL, it is too insipid for even 45 to believe. He is obviously trolling. LOL at the rating being bad for mma. This is just ridiculous. 45 has the greatest gimmick of all time and should be applauded for it, not mocked. 45 I say to you kudos for a troll job well done.
A mediocre 0.9 and 1.2m viewers for the confusingly-branded “UFC Main Events” counter-programming.
Why didn’t they just repackage some of their TUF10 content as “Kimbo Night”?
They should have held on to running UFC 100 for Fedor’s debut. That they ran it against Gina on Showtime is still crazy to me. I could see if she was main eventing on CBS, but that was like dropping an atomic bomb on a mouse.
And Meltzer had some quotes from Dana about the CBS show. Blah blah blah UFC is still bigger. Blah blah blah Fedor and Rogers suck. All that’s new is he did claim Cain Velasquez could beat either of them in less than 2 minutes. Fortunately he didn’t say Cain would draw bigger ratings than Fedor got because I would have laughed so hard I’d suffer a fatal brain aneurysm.
45 doesn’t work me up at all. Quite frankly, I think it’s sad that someone in their 30’s dedicates so much time and dedication to spreading misinformation on a website anonymously for no profit.
He is hilarious in a Grizzly Man type, laugh-at-him way.
If 45 only ever did this once in a while, it would probably get less derision. What he’s doing on a regular basis on this site is nothing shorty of demagogy. Hey, I’m all for a right to free speech and all, but at some point, you have to give up defending a weak position at least. I mean COME ON!
The FACT that ratings were up 125% (reported on five ounces of pain) on the time slot says that these were new viewers as opposed to those tuning in for the news, which a) shouldn’t affect the ratings like a “spike” of viewers, and b) isn’t actually a bad thing anyway, since they actually stuck around for 30 whole minutes.
The supposition that this is “bad for the sport” is a false assertion and can only be attributed to a different set of (ulterior) motives (hence the reference to demagogy).
Having said all that, I gotta say, it is REALLY funny to read.
1) I’ve helped with MMA websites long ago (think 1990’s). Having to do it to keep up with all the content takes all the fun out of it for me.
2) I’m not in my 30’s. I’m in my 40’s.
3) “The FACT that ratings were up 125% (reported on five ounces of pain) on the time slot says that these were new viewers as opposed to those tuning in for the news, which a) shouldn’t affect the ratings like a “spike” of viewers, and b) isn’t actually a bad thing anyway, since they actually stuck around for 30 whole minutes.” - This is flat out wrong. Strikeforce’s show had a definitive decrease in overall viewership from the typical ratings in that time slot. Please go back to 5oz’s of pain and learn how to read properly. What you claim it said and what it actually said are two very different things.
4) Fedor vs. Rogers from 11pm to 11:15 got 2.4/09 in adults 18-34. The entire show was 2.3/09 in men 18-34. What that means is 2.3% to 2.4% of all the households (in that demographic) watching TV at that time where watching Strikeforce. There is no bump in that number during the last 15 minutes. How can that be? Obviously the age demographic could have changed slightly, but I seriously doubt it would have had a huge shift over a 15 minute time span. A good portion of those viewers were older. CBS obviously has the more specific numbers that they would never release. But it’s pretty easy to look at the numbers that were released and see the “everybody called their friends” theory is BS. If it was true, then there would have been a major spike in that demographic during those 15 minutes.
5) If Strikeforce’s card was on cable TV, it wouldn’t have even broken the Top 20 for highest rated shows. And yet the show was on CBS.
Okay 45, okay…take it easy, enough with the hating…I’m in my 40s too. Here’s a link to the 5oz article.
http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/11/10/strikeforce-fedor-vs-rogers-peaks-at-5-46-million-viewers/
To quote, “The broadcast was also up 125% past it’s normal season-to-date average for the time slot with all adults between the ages of 18 to 34.”
I can read. The rest of my comment was opinion, I freely admit. I never claimed otherwise. But I can definitely read English. Fact check, sir.
It was still the third most-watched show on network television on Saturday night, according to MMA Weekly. But okay, you think it’s terrible and it might hurt Zuffa, we get it.
Yeesh, it seems like every thread lately gets sidetracked by the same predictable crap.
Oh, and also:
http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/cbs-fedor-rogers-draws-546-million-viewers-20843
To quote, “Compared to CBS’s 9 p.m. to 11 p.m. season-to-date averages, the Strikeforce show was up 38 percent in adults, ages 18-49, 125 percent in adults, 18-34, 117 percent in men, ages 25-54, 178 percent in men, ages 18-49 and 283 percent in men, ages 18-34. According to CBS, Strikeforce/M-1 Global “Fedor vs. Rogers” outdrew primetime college football coverage on ABC, ESPN and ESPN2.”
That’s not opinion, folks, that’s reported numbers. I’ll skip opining on it and let the numbers actually speak for themselves, no spin involved.
My own opinion (to bring it back on topic for Ivan) is that they’ll be back, and free MMA on Network TV is nothing but GOOD for the entire sport, regardless of the banner it might be under. But I’m repeating myself. Again.
Oh…that same article disputes 45’s stats on the Fedor fight.
To quote, “The bout between the stoic Russian and hulking Minnesotan drew a 3.5 rating in men, ages 25-54, 3.3 in men, ages 18-49 and 3.1 in men, ages 18-34.”
Again, those are the reported numbers, no spin involved.
GassedOut— I wasn’t referring to the backlash to the trolling; I was referring to the trolling itself. It got old a very long time ago, and now it’s seemingly taking over every thread.
Yeah, I agree, Ivan. I know I’ve participated a bit in it, but when a guy that hides behind anonymity tells me I can’t read…well, you get the idea.
(Oh, and 45, lest you think I hide behind that as well, I’m only too happy to tell you who I am if you ask me. I’m just a fight fan with a little amateur experience. 21-7-1 worth. All over 20 years ago.)
Dave
…..but they just don’t know MMA like Jon does, nor do they have the connections to the right kind of writers (guys like Zach, Rome, of course myself~!).
…lol…. that’s funny…. i checked the site out today and he looked under some rock and found scott keith to do stuff for the site..i threw up in my mouth a little….who’s next, crz?
You know, seeing Scott Keith’s name and finding 45’s age in the same thread makes me wonder if they’ve ever been seen in the same room together.
Yeaaah well, a few of us told Jon the SKeith thing wasn’t a good call, but it was his call.
From BloodyElbow quoting Jerry Millen talking to ESPN radio:
“In the meeting, Dana says to Fedor ‘oh, you’re the best fighter in the world, we’d love to have you.’ And Fedor says to him ‘yeah, I hear and read on the internet what you have to say about me everyday.’ And then Dana’s like ‘I’m just a promoter. I’m just trying to sell tickets. I just want to sell tickets.’ And Fedor said ‘that’s what makes you and I different.’ [Fedor] just wants respect and to be treated fairly.”
Why is anybody quoting GARY Millen?
Sengoku and DREAM might be doing a co-promotion event for New Years. Is there any better sign of the bad MMA market in Japan then this? Having both is impossible at this point my gut tells me.
Hey, on the upside, Fedor’s nose isn’t broken, it was cut before the fight, and his hand only had a dislocated thumb, and he’ll only be out 4-6 weeks with a cast!
Now THAT’s bad for the UFC.
GassedOut,
What you originally said and what you are saying now are two different things. You originally forgot to say that you were speaking of a specific demographic. It makes a big difference in the numbers you were spewing.
Normally I’d agree, but that sounds pretty believable. Dana has a total madonna-whore complex with MMA fighters. And when a guy like Fedor (or Rampage or Dan Henderson or Frank Shamrock or Brett Rogers or Andrei Arlovski or Gomi or any other MMA fighter he says sucks) are in his presence he goes into total ass-kiss mode. And I’m sure, even though Fedor doesn’t understand English that well, M-1 keeps him posted on all of Dana’s comments. And Dana’s belief is “oh well, I can say whatever I want because I have the power”, but it’s backfiring here.
Does anybody have faith in Fedor’s management to actually translate things properly?
If you say so 45.
Mark, there’s an interview with Lorretta Hunt over on Sherdog. He comments about that a little.
Dana is just being Dana, I suspect. He’s done it before and he’ll do it again. And love him or hate him, everyone stops to hear him. And really…him being Dana, I expect nothing else. (I actually kinda like him a weird sort of way. He certainly doesn’t pull any punches. Too bad about the spin he’s trying to use here.)
Why would they need to lie to make any of the statements worse? Repeating them as they are is more than enough. Why would you want to work for someone who goes on record say he has absolutely no respect for you?
Dana “not pulling any punches” is one thing. Insulting people just because they don’t work for you is another. Imagine a Delta Airlines executive giving an interview bashing an American Airlines employee just because he turned down a job. Or a sports team owner giving an interview saying a player who had an impressive game really sucks and is overpraised by the media. Or a movie director giving an interview saying an actor who turned down a role in his movie did it because he knew he’d look bad in direct comparison with more talent actors. They don’t because that’s incredibly immature. It’s carny bullshit. He’s 40 years old, it’s time to stop acting like a 14 year old. I’ll bet his kids are more mature than he is.
Dana says those things because he knows they’ll be repeated almost instantly and universally in the media for this sport. For as long as its existed, it hasn’t learned to do something with those quotes other than to splash them up with like 3 paragraphs of text giving an opinion to whatever crazy thing he says next. Well, I take that back. They’ve learned *to* do that because its helped generate traffic and is a lot easier than calling for interviews or whatever.
As for Sengoku/K-1, uh, is this supposed to be upsetting? About this time last year we were all talking about how Sengoku seemed to be extraneous; Why was it there? Did we need Sengoku? It worked as a solid sort of B-tier show, but let’s face it. Japan is far, far better off with one big show than two middling ones that struggle to fill out their cards. If it is done, well, thanks for the memories Sengoku. See your guys in DREAM along with the sponsors and hopefully some houses that are closer to full.
Do you think Sengoku closes up shop now?
The rumors seem to be that they’re killing the promotion, Don Quiote is moving over to sponsor DREAM, and the talent is transferring accordingly. Honestly, me? Not very bothered. Maybe that is because I’m not Omigawa or someone like that who depends on Sengoku existing for good paying work because I’m so mediocre.
In other rumor-centric news: supposedly Renzo Gracie signed for a fight with Matt Hughes in 2010.
I wondered aloud to myself about who exactly the UFC would bring in for Hughes to fight, and Renzo is probably about the best pick out there. I mean, its a pointless affair and in many ways displays the problems with the UFC’s ability to create new stars through PPV, much like you’ve seen in countless boxing PPVs over the last couple of years.
It would have been a must-see fight 8 years ago. But I wonder how many UFC fans even know who Renzo is. Are they banking on them remembering the 60 Minutes special 4 years later? Or that a generation of fans who only know the Gracie name from Hughes destroying Royce giving a crap? It’s interesting that they’d do this now, as there was a long period of time Renzo was a free agent that they could have brought him in after he stopped working for PRIDE.
You’re right; 8 years ago it was a fight, but there was no market for it in America to make it worth the UFC’s while, and Hughes wasn’t someone PRIDE wanted to spend money on.
Hughes is a washed up ex-champ who’s talents are best used fighting other washed up ex-champs in meaningless moneymaker bouts for the next 3-4 years. Occasionally, you can move him out of that and into a title shot he doesn’t deserve, he’ll get creamed, and we restart from there and back to the Pat Miletches and Frank Shamrocks. Is that healthy for MMA to be relying on an increasingly old and immobile fighter? Probably not. But you have to recognize that this was inevitable.
Alan, I agree, but I personally still find that fight interesting. It’s kind of like the Chuck/Wandy fight in my thinking. Both are aging veterans, neither is in their prime any more, but Chuck/Wandy was a barn burner. I’m thinking there is a possibility here too. Maybe not…but there’s the possibility.
I am happy to hear Sengoku is closing up shop. Japan has enough 2nd tier shows to filter into DREAM only now. That is the biggest problem with the American market. Nobody is a good feeder system for the UFC. That is mostly to blame on TV guys who don’t want quality young MMA talent. That’s why I feel like the WEC talent merging is inevitable. Zuffa is forced to create that 2nd tier themselves and probably can dangle enough intangibles over a smaller TV network to get it done.
As for Hughes vs. Gracie…. That fight will sell very well. They can build it up as Renzo defending the family name and then show some of the UFC footage.
Aa for the matchmaking…. I have no problem with this sort of Legends Fight as long as it doesn’t get interwoven with the real talent if the division. Zuffa wants to do this for Hughes for the next year, it will only help get more eyes on cards with the real contenders. Now, if Hughes then gets a title shit after all of this, that is when the problem happens and it will be crap.
I wish Hughes were fighting Anthony Johnson instead. AJ has major star potential, he just needs to get a win over a star instead of jobbers who look 2 weight classes smaller than him and have no name value. I think AJ would crush Hughes, and that would give him some serious momentum/buzz, like Alves got after crushing Hughes. I can’t tell if the UFC is expecting AJ to beat Koscheck or vice versa, but it is a silly fight either way when a guy like Hughes is available to lose to either of them.
Aa for the matchmaking…. I have no problem with this sort of Legends Fight as long as it doesn’t get interwoven with the real talent if the division.
So, if Matt Hughes wins this and ends up fighting Anderson Silva (a real possibility, mind you), we’ll hear criticism of it instead of talk about how awesome the buyrate is? I just want to have this on record.
If Sengoku closes up shop where will Satoshi Ishii go? Dream the most likely destination?
Two comments for record for Alan….
If Matt Hughes beats Renzo Gracie and then gets a title shot of any sort in his next fight, it is complete and total BS.
If Randy Couture beats Brandon Vera and then gets a title shot if any sort in his next fight, it is complete and total BS.
Sadly, I think the Couture one is going to happen if he wins on Saturday. That stinks.
I wish Hughes were fighting Anthony Johnson instead.
Matt Hughes fights to make money. He makes no money fighting Anthony Johnson. He probably loses to Anthony Johnson, which means he makes less money in the future. So, yeah. Not gonna happen. Or Kos. Or Swick. Or really, anyone else.
Sadly, I think the Couture one is going to happen if he wins on Saturday. That stinks.
It will totally happen if he wins on Saturday, and Shogun will be fighting someone dangerous for like 50K. Of course, he’s not gonna win….
Alan are you implying that Hughes vs Gracie will be a headliner? I doubt it will, so the buyrate (and thus Hughes’ ppv bonus, if he gets one, and I assume he does) would be more tied to the main event. Further, I think at this point a lot more people know who AJ and Koscheck are than who Renzo is. If Hughes has a fight by fight contract, then I understand why he would turn down lots of fights and take this fight, but if he has multiple fights left on his contract, then his guaranteed pay for a fight vs Renzo isn’t going to be different than for a fight vs AJ or Kos. However I will freely admit that if Hughes is fighting just to get his win bonus, then fighting Renzo is the smarter choice.
There are 3 possible outcomes for Vera-Couture:
1. Couture wins—great for business, Randy is given a title shot against Machida, everyone is happy.
2. Vera KO’s Randy. He looks impressive, he is marketed as a legend killer, and given a title shot against Machida which will do good business, and everyone is happy.
3. Vera looks average and eeks out a boring decision over Randy. This is the worst situation because nobody would pay to see Vera version 2.0 (the boring version) fight Machida, because both are counter fighters. This result wouldn’t surprise me because Vera has no killer instinct and is a horrible boxer, but Randy is almost 50.
Vera has good low kicks but lets not forget he literally got out-quicked by Tim Sylvia. Tim has faster hands than “The Lie” does. Vera is terrified of engaging in punching range; if he is in a fight where he can be punched, he will lose.
Couture will hopefully win and get a title shot. I would rather see Couture fight Machida than anyone else fight Machida because of his wrestling acumen.
Alan are you implying that Hughes vs Gracie will be a headliner?
At worst, its a coheadliner. Looking at who is available to fight, it will probably headline UFC 109.
Further, I think at this point a lot more people know who AJ and Koscheck are than who Renzo is.
Renzo has a very, very important name. Its cache someone like Koscheck can’t have. Plus, he’s beatable.
Further, I think at this point a lot more people know who AJ and Koscheck are than who Renzo is.
They are all fight by fight contracts. If Hughes loses, the UFC will have the option of cutting the amount of money he gets or cutting him completely from the roster. Hughes has made it clear in interviews he believes he’s contracted for more fights than he will have for the rest of his professional career. This is not someone thinking about trying to make a run at a title and then defending it multiple times. This is a guy looking to make retirement money, as well he should. He’s broken down. Anything else would be delusional.
I have no care to see Matt Hughes fight Anthony Johnson. I have already seen Ken Shamrock, Chuck Liddell, and Randy Couture lose enough brain cells…. Let’s not add Matt Hughes to that list. In general, legends like them should be retired so they don’t have to take the abuse. Hughes/Renzo is one of those fights that is the exception to that rule as both are more grapplers.
I am rooting for Brandon Vera just so we don’t have to see the absolutely destruction that would be Machida/Couture. Speed vs. No-Reflexes is never a pretty sight. But did anybody see pictures of Couture before this fight? Holy jumping HGH. The guy gets more and more ripped as he edges closer to 50.
As for Matt Hughes…. I was watching the behind the scenes stuff on the DVD for his fight with Matt Serra. He openly admits he doesn’t have the fire in him like he did when he was younger. He equates a lot of it to having children and his priorities changing. The age doesn’t help either.
I think Hughes beats Renzo pretty easily. I hope he retires after that.
Bad timing for Renzo to make a deal with the UFC. He should’ve done it earlier because his biographical DVD was really lacking by not having any Pride footage to show.
I definitely want to see Hughes in there against AJ or Swick or someone else who will hurt him. He is easily one of my least favorite fighters not only because of how much of a cocky bully he is, but because of his autobiography, where he talks about torturing animals. A nice concussion from a head kick. would be a great way to see his career end.
“Bad timing for Renzo to make a deal with the UFC. He should’ve done it earlier because his biographical DVD was really lacking by not having any Pride footage to show.”
Not really. Now Renzo can make more money by releasing the extended ultimate edition directors cut of the DVD!
Hughes-Gracie will not sell for several reasons
1) Renzo Gracie has never been relevant in America (unfortunately, because he’s my favorite of the Gracie family) and cannot be made relevant overnight in the twilight of his career. Renzo is full of charisma and I’m sure will have some gems for quotes on the Countdown show, but he’s a 42 year old man having his first fight after the Frank Shamrock fight everybody forgot even happened 3 years ago.
2) Matt Hughes is clearly not going to be a Randy Couture whose career is better in its later stages than in his earlier stages. He clearly peaked a few years ago and passed the torch to GSP. And his fan interest dropped off significantly after losing to GSP the second time.
3) The Gracie Family aura to Zuffa-era fans is pretty meaningless for the most part. Royce Gracie is a distant historical figure to them. And they only know of maybe Helio from the coverage his death got. Rickson, Renzo, Royler, Ralph, Rodrigo and Ryan are vaguely known to non-hardcores. Renzo is Royce’s cousin, nobody would care all that much if Frank Mir’s cousin Rocco came in to fight Lesnar.
4) MMA has shown that it is clearly a “in the moment” sport with no room for nostalgia. And the fans have shown countless times they only buy fights with an uncertain outcome. They won’t believe Renzo can survive Hughes’ power.
But I hope I’m wrong because I’d love for Renzo to get a nice last run in the spotlight.
Renzo Gracie has never been relevant in America
It doesn’t matter. His name is Gracie. And its easy to hype him up as a legit talent because he is.
Matt Hughes is clearly not going to be a Randy Couture whose career is better in its later stages than in his earlier stages.
Everyone knows this. It doesn’t matter. People bought that last UFC Liddell fought on even though he was washed up. They’ll buy his next PPV too.
The Gracie Family aura to Zuffa-era fans is pretty meaningless for the most part.
Ridiculous. Royce/Hughes shot the UFC on its current trajectory.
In any case, it doesn’t matter. Its clearly being positioned to be a headliner. What else can they put on UFC 109?
There is an article up on BE by Mike Rome discussing in-depth more of Fedor’s contract with Affliction.
1. Fedor got $300,000 per fight.
2. M-1 got $1.2 Million “consulting” fee.
Somebody figured out that even if you factor in Fedor’s ownership of M-1, it’s a 64/36 split…. Which means M-1 got almost 2/3rds of the money.
Are there any doubts anymore of what is going on with his managers? Was the 20 leaches coming into the cage after the fight just the icing on the cake?
Assuming Fedor gets 20 percent of that fee because he is the 20 percent owner of M-1 seems kind of naive.
I’m guessing the bulk of that “consulting fee” ends up with Fedor one way or another.
Ivan Trembow makes a HUGE point about Marloes Coenen…how do you not fit a one-minute friggin’ fight into a multiple hour telecast, when you’re trying to build a contender for Cyborg?!? They aren’t trying is the reality, clueless. And Miller/Davis doesn’t happen at all. This is all very bizarre and much like the world of network television, where endless amounts of time and money are wasted with mostly half-assed results.
Irregardless, though, it was a helluva show! And to 45 Huddle’s earlier point on Miller/Shields. I LOVED that fight, really, like it didn’t require an effort for me to thoroughly enjoy it. I do enjoy submission grappling, though, I can easily stay awake for 6 hours of ADCC. So it seems this is where our tastes differ. Personally, I enjoy all types of fighting from sumo to karate. So when you say it’s boring, that’s your perspective, it certainly doesn’t make your opinion wrong, but nor does it make me or others goofy for naming Shields/Miller Fight of the Night. Just sayin’ and definitely not trying to argue with you, cause you’ll win. Lol.
Shields gets flack, but he won. He’s the champ and we’re not. Dana White complains of Roy Nelson being boring on TUF 10, but Jorgel Gurgel gets bonuses for having the best fights and gets fired for LOSING. It’s all very contradictory. Pro wrestling (which I also love) is about performance, MMA should be about winning, which will inevitably, but not always, be exciting.
I wasn’t assuming Fedor got 1 cent from M-1. It was just a comparison.
Fedor isn’t getting that money. The only logical way to have the money sent to a corporation instead of a fighter is to then distribute it to family members on the payroll. However, Alek Emelianenko has come out and said that Vadim is not good.
If Fedor see’s a penny of that money, I would be shocked.
But that’s all the fans who didn’t see the SEG years know of Royce: Hughes nearly submitting the submission master and then Hughes pounding him out with ease. They did a really good job of selling Royce, but that was also the end of them saying anything remotely positive about the UFC when Zuffa didn’t own it. Everything else after that was “Fighters in the 90s sucked compared to the level they’re at now and this company was a joke before we made it legitimate.” So a footnote to that mantra saying “Except this 42 year old guy you probably don’t know” can fix that?
As for what Fedor may or may not be getting paid, it’s all pointless speculation. We can speculate since Jenna Jameson took over Tito’s career she’ll split the money to her advantage he makes from the Griffin fight. And even if they did make the majority of the money who cares, that’s Fedor’s problem. He’s a grown man who can do what he wants. Maybe he doesn’t care about material possessions. Maybe it’s his way of putting money into a company he wants to build, and what’s the difference between writing a personal check to M-1 Global to keep them afloat and just directly giving a part of your purse to them. Either way, who cares what Fedor does with his money.
I’m not entirely understanding what you’re arguing. The Gracie’s criticism of the UFC format is irrelevant; no one heard it except a couple hardcore fans. The Gracie name is wildly relevant in the hands of a major promotional body like the UFC, even if its not Royce. You can build the fight with both being legends, Renzo being a better fighter than Royce, Brother’s Revenge, all that crap.
I’m arguing they’ve downgraded pre-2001 MMA so much it’s practically worthless to fans who didn’t watch MMA until the Dana Years (probably 90-95% of the audience) that nobody of that fanbase is going to care about the Gracie name anymore. They used the SEG-era legacy to their advantage from 2002-06 bringing back Royce, Shamrock, Tank and Kimo to try to get the fans from the early days re-interested, and they all were beaten by modern era MMA fighters (Tank by Mir, Shamrock by Ortiz and Franklin, Royce by Hughes) so that promotional angle is used up entirely. Renzo is going to have less of an impact than Mark Coleman’s return had.
And he’s his cousin (via being Helio’s grandnephew) not his brother. Royce’s brothers are Rickson, Royler, Rorion and Relson. But even if he was his brother, this is over a 4 year old fight that was hardly a classic and he himself has been out of the sport for 3 years.
And before people write in “I didn’t watch until 2005 but I like seeing the old stuff”, I’m not saying all of the audience doesn’t respect the 90s era, but most don’t. Notice whenever a 1 dimensional brawler like Houston Alexander or Kimbo comes in it’s snidely written off as “He sucks like the early UFC guys did.” And they also take offense when someone of that era is praised with “They’d get destroyed by [insert modern era fighter here.]“
I’m arguing they’ve downgraded pre-2001 MMA so much it’s practically worthless to fans who didn’t watch MMA until the Dana Years
You’re approaching this like the UFC is trying to create lots of title bout scenarios out of this. They’re going to approach it like its a spectacle, which it is.
Notice whenever a 1 dimensional brawler like Houston Alexander or Kimbo comes in it’s snidely written off as “He sucks like the early UFC guys did.”
A) That opinion isn’t wrong.
B) Obviously, it doesn’t matter when people say those sorts of things. There’s empirical evidence of that.
My thoughts on the Fedor/M-1 contract information:
I have to wonder if Fedor doesn’t have a side personal services contract with M-1 that pays him for each fight as well. i.e. the contract for the $300k is between Affliction and Fedor, but as it is a co-promotion, I’m interested in whether he’s also got a service contract with M-1, which could explain why they’re extracting 4x as much coin.
Other major athletes have had these before the salary cap era, so it’s not entirely impossible.
I never said it was. I originally wrote what I wrote in response to 45 saying “That fight will sell very well.” (It won’t) “They can build it up as Renzo defending the family name” (that will be 10 years removed from being remotely relevant to the sport they helped create) “and then show some of the UFC footage.” (that Renzo isn’t in but they’ll have to substitute with Sakuraba beating him and the lay n pray fights of his early PRIDE fights.) Again, this is being sold as something involved an incident that took place 4 years ago when even 4 months in MMA is treated like a distant memory. Does anybody care about the Fitch-GSP fight months removed?
It isn’t wrong but it illustrates the lack of respect for MMA 15 years ago. If a football player sucks nobody says “He plays like the 1994 era of football.” He just sucks.
Yeah, you can never believe widespread opinions.
Again, this is being sold as something involved an incident that took place 4 years ago when even 4 months in MMA is treated like a distant memory.
It doesn’t matter, just as it wouldn’t matter if Frank Shamrock/Hughes was the headliner. Its not going to sell a million PPVs but it will move tickets and be a decent middle of the road show. That’s what they’re looking for with so many guys on the shelf.
It isn’t wrong but it illustrates the lack of respect for MMA 15 years ago. If a football player sucks nobody says “He plays like the 1994 era of football.” He just sucks.
This is so incredibly wrong, I don’t know where to start. Football in 1994 wasn’t terribly far off from today; Sure, the run and shoot was big instead of the spread offense, the 3-4 was still being developed, and so on, but overall, we’re not talking about a quantum leap here. Where we are with MMA now compared to 1994 is basically a quantum leap. This is not MMA’s final form or as advanced as it will get, but its leagues more advanced than Tank Abbott, which is who Kimbo Slice most closely mirrors in terms of ascernable skills. Actually, I also take that back. Tank could wrestle too.
A better comparison would be to say that someone plays like they’re in the 1940s. People say that about Jamarcus Russell because his numbers are among the worst in the modern era of the sport.
Yeah, you can never believe widespread opinions.
They’re opinions spread online among knowledgable long time fans. That is fine and dandy. The millions who tuned into TUF for Kimbo and promptly tuned out when he lost establish that him having been exposed as ostensibly talentless at the hands of a mediocre journeyman meant little compared to the already established character of Badass Streetfighting Afro-American Criminal Stereotype. But each loss brings him closer to being recognized as a total fraud. Since he never really beat anyone to start with, the fall he will assuredly have will be far more abrupt than the one Hughes, Couture, and Liddell are slowly tumbling down.
Whether it’s a right opinion or wrong opinion doesn’t matter, it’s that it’s the opinion of a large number of people who pay for the product. Comparing them to Kimbo fans is not a good comparison because the “nobody from the 20th century fighting in MMA was that great” is much more widespread than “KIMBO ROOLZ”. And has existed for far longer than Kimbo’s 15 minutes of fame can hope to.
You’re looking at this through the eyes of a hardcore fan. The newer fans (ask any of them or see what they write on message boards) see the Gracie family as fighters who dominated because nobody knew how Jiu Jitsu worked, and as soon as fighters began catching on they disappeared. Royce left the UFC and was out of the sport for 5 years, Rickson disappeared and turned down some huge money offers from PRIDE to fight Sakuraba for years and Royce’s own loss to Sakuraba signaled the end of their relevance. Fighters took what they brought to the sport and added it to their games to become more well-rounded fighters than the Gracie family could ever hope to be. It’s like Les Paul inventing the electric guitar but more people going to hear musicians who played it better than he did than caring how he played (which was stuck in the 1950s style of music he was brought up in.)
Comparing them to Kimbo fans is not a good comparison because the “nobody from the 20th century fighting in MMA was that great” is much more widespread than “KIMBO ROOLZ”.
What are you arguing? Kimbo fans outnumber the rest of the fanbase by a huge margin. He is the most famous fighter out there, bar maybe Lesnar. No one talks about fighters from 1994 because few of them are still active.
The newer fans (ask any of them or see what they write on message boards) see the Gracie family as fighters who dominated because nobody knew how Jiu Jitsu worked, and as soon as fighters began catching on they disappeared.
The majority of people watching this sport don’t post on message boards.
Looks like its all irrelevant anyhow. Renzo says there’s no fight happening until later in the year. So, UFC 109 will have….uhhh…no clear main event. Hey, if you want to schedule 12 PPVs a year in advance of having fights for them, them’s the breaks.
But he’s short term. He’ll inevitably lose enough to get cut by 2011. Or sooner. The “original UFC fighters weren’t that good” opinion has lasted nearly 10 years.
In comparison situations (such as a Gracie fighting) they would. Modern era vs. original era debates are quite common.
It doesn’t mean they don’t share the same opinions. Even Matt Hughes is considered old, and he was still only behind Ortiz and Liddell in popularity 3 years ago. How a older guy who wasn’t even actively fighting during that time is going to excite fans is a strange viewpoint. If the fight did anything above what UFC 102 did I’d be absolutely shocked.
But he’s short term. He’ll inevitably lose enough to get cut by 2011. Or sooner. The “original UFC fighters weren’t that good” opinion has lasted nearly 10 years.
He’s not going to be cut because of that opinion. He’s going to be cut because he really is as limited as many of those fighters were, and as a result, will be punished badly by a far deeper field of competitors in the present day, until which the day arrives that he is no longer marketable (which is when he will be jettisoned).
In comparison situations (such as a Gracie fighting) they would. Modern era vs. original era debates are quite common.
Where? Sherdog? Sherdog is irrelevant.
It doesn’t mean they don’t share the same opinions. Even Matt Hughes is considered old, and he was still only behind Ortiz and Liddell in popularity 3 years ago.
Matt Hughes is considered old because he is. His career is near completion. He admits it. Ortiz is old too. Liddell is old too. What is impossible to grasp? As such, just feeding them to young fighters is not something they’re going to want to do. There’s no money in that. There’s a reason Tito went from Coleman to Griffin instead of fighting Luis Cane.
Man, your reading comprehension sucks today. I said he’ll be cut when he loses so many times they can’t justify keeping him anymore. That’s not an opinion, that’s fact.
Really? It’s a really large community that whether you think they’re mostly comprised of idiots or not (and I’d hardly confuse the place with a Mensa website) the power of numbers makes it very relevant.
Message boards are like a poll: if you see a trend of a large number of people out of a sample poll all saying the same thing, then you can assume it’s a widespread opinion.
That you can’t grasp that I can’t grasp you grasping the thought this Senior’s Circuit fight is going to have a large number of people grasping their telephones or remote controls to order it?
Look at what Rashad Evans knocking out Chuck Liddell did for him. He instantly became a superstar. Should they have wasted that fight on Liddell vs. Randleman II? Why not run Koscheck-Hughes or Fitch-Hughes or Swick-Hughes instead of “UFC 109: Age In The Cage.”
You have to have some kind of legitimacy, so Luis Cane who isn’t popular by any stretch of the imagination right now wouldn’t benefit from fighting Tito. But someone with legitimacy who just needs that extra boost to put them over the top would be far wiser than giving him Grandpa Coleman.
“Message boards are like a poll: if you see a trend of a large number of people out of a sample poll all saying the same thing, then you can assume it’s a widespread opinion.”
Message boards are a suedo reality that have very little basis of real life.
How many organizations tried to cater to the needs of these message boards? The IFL, Affliction, Bodog, EliteXC… The list continues….
The UFC was also very guilty of this when they first bought the company. It wasn’t uncommon for the key memebers of the company to take what was said on The Underground and try and apply it to what they were doing with their events.
Whether it be a website concerning cars, electronics, MMA, or anything else… The needs and wants of those devoted consumers is completely different with what the main stream consumer wants in a product.
So basing anything off of that is stupid.
That doesn’t mean that your conclusion isn’t correct. I do think the UFC can sell Hughes vs. Renzo properly and make it a stron co-main event. But don’t let those message boards fool you.
It’s not a “I think IFL is better than UFC” oddball opinion, it’s a very populist opinion, though. If someone were to ask fans at the next UFC event if they care about the Gracie family in 2009 you’d get a resounding no.
Of course you like it, the UFC is doing it and they’re always correct and never wrong. But you didn’t have much respect for Shamrock-Gracie because Elite did it.
I said he’ll be cut when he loses so many times they can’t justify keeping him anymore. That’s not an opinion, that’s fact.
How does that disprove the belief that he probably isn’t better than fighters from the earliest years of the sport? You’re all over the place.
Message boards are like a poll: if you see a trend of a large number of people out of a sample poll all saying the same thing, then you can assume it’s a widespread opinion.
If message boards were relevant, than no one would have bought Shamrock/Tito II or III, or watched Kimbo ever, etc etc etc.
Look at what Rashad Evans knocking out Chuck Liddell did for him. He instantly became a superstar. Should they have wasted that fight on Liddell vs. Randleman II?
You’re absolutely right. But Liddell was looking to be in title contention. He was willing to fight Rashad Evans. This brings us to…
Why not run Koscheck-Hughes or Fitch-Hughes or Swick-Hughes instead of “UFC 109: Age In The Cage.”
Because Matt Hughes won’t fight them for the money that they’re offering. How difficult is that for you to understand? Unless the UFC is going to pay him a significantly (and 25% or so based on *potential* PPV bonuses isn’t enough) higher amount of money to fight Josh Koscheck than Renzo Gracie, it is foolish of Matt to take the fight. Period. Point blank. Matt knows it, Joe Silva knows it, Matt’s manager knows it.
“Of course you like it, the UFC is doing it and they’re always correct and never wrong. But you didn’t have much respect for Shamrock-Gracie because Elite did it.”
EliteXC was pushing Frank Shamrock is one of the best MMA fighters at the time. Which was so far from reality. It is the same reason I said Matt Hughes shouldn’t be getting a title shot after he beats Renzo.
These fights aren’t bad in themselves. It is when they promote them as meaning something beyond that (which EliteXC did), that it is bad.
You’re right, in a lot of cases in the insular MMA world bubble a lot of beliefs carry more weight than they should. But this one is beyond that because there is evidence it is widespread. You could point to the low ratings IFL got and say the fanboyism they got online was inflated, or what the crappy main events of 2006 drew versus the online hate of them is no contest. But if UFC’s fans honestly cared about the old days Unleashed would have huge ratings, they’d put their entire library out on DVD now that the disputes of Lionsgate’s SEG footage and the bad distribution deal the Zuffa stuff was released under are both resolved, and “the old days” wouldn’t be a term for a fighter sucking. Show me proof the fans who cut their MMA teeth on The Ultimate Fighter care about 90s MMA if I’m wrong.
I said people compared him and fighters with his limited skill level to guys like Tank Abbott, Kimo and Scott Ferrazo. There is a widespread belief that the fighters in UFC’s 1-9 were littered with wild brawlers who would get murdered by well-rounded fighters of today. And in a lot of fans views, Royce’s record was inflated by going up against a bunch of guys like that.
1) If it’s about PPV bonuses, Renzo is not the guy to get you that as your fellow headliner.
2) They are not going to let him fight out his contract against less-than-stellar opponents. They’d give Liddell that “retirement tour” treatment if they allowed it. So after this is he going to say “Get me Carlos Newton again or I’m not fighting!”
You could point to the low ratings IFL got and say the fanboyism they got online was inflated, or what the crappy main events of 2006 drew versus the online hate of them is no contest.
There was fanboyism for the IFL?
Show me proof the fans who cut their MMA teeth on The Ultimate Fighter care about 90s MMA if I’m wrong.
Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie’s financially successful fights during this current era show that there’s a high level of recognition for those guys. Its not like the UFC was watched by no one early on. Back then it got crazy buyrates.
I said people compared him and fighters with his limited skill level to guys like Tank Abbott, Kimo and Scott Ferrazo.
Which is deserved, because that’s the level of fighter he is. And because he’s a crappy fighter, he will lose to even mediocre fighters, and get bounced from the UFC once his ability to make money disappears along with his image. These are not ideas that are independent of one another. Rather, they’re irrevocably entertwined.
1) If it’s about PPV bonuses, Renzo is not the guy to get you that as your fellow headliner.
Renzo is a safe bet because of his family name, and because Matt Hughes can beat him. Koscheck, Johnson, etc. have never sold PPVs either, and unlike Renzo, Matt Hughes cannot beat them. They represent financial suicide for him.
They are not going to let him fight out his contract against less-than-stellar opponents.
You’re wrong and right. He will fight past their prime names. He will also fight championship level guys he doesn’t belong in the ring with because he can bring buys. He will not fight prospects with no name for awhile.
They’d give Liddell that “retirement tour” treatment if they allowed it.
Who do you think Liddell is likely to fight in a comeback: Houston Alexander & Mark Coleman, or Lil’ Nog & Jon Jones?
It was the marketing, not just the name recognition. UFC had an agenda to get false hopes up for Royce against Hughes, as that fight was clearly a “Zuffa > SEG” moment, which was safe to do because absolutely no one honestly believed Royce could survive Hughes’ power. Shit on the king of the early UFC’s legacy and people stop talking about those days. And TUF 3 was what legitimized Ken Shamrock. If all they had to show were clips of Ortiz beating the shit out of him from UFC 40 the show never would have reached the height it did. And I’d argue far more of his fanbase came from the WWF than stuck with him from UFC’s 1-9. Unless they plan on having Renzo coach against Hughes on a TUF season (that’s an awesome idea actually) there is no comparison. Otherwise they’ve got nothing but Sakuraba snapping Renzo’s arm and various Japanese fighters laying on top of him for a half hour in the PRIDE vault.
And I wouldn’t call the buyrates “crazy”. I can’t find the Observer issue that listed what some of the pre-cable ban shows got, but none of them reached near 500,000 or anything. I don’t even think they reached 300,000. Which was quite good for having no television and having most of your advertising being negative news pieces, but even if all of the fans from back then are still watching today (and they’re not, even though a million people claim they ordered UFC 1 when it got 75,000 buys) they’re a tiny minority.
We’re never going to agree on whether Gracie means much so continuing that argument is pointless. But Josh Koscheck is a far bigger name than Renzo Gracie is in America. Everybody from the first TUF season is. I mean just think about the sales pitch of Renzo “Hey, Matt, you beat the son of my grand uncle 4 years ago so I’m coming out of retirement to beat you even though I’ve had years of sitting around doing nothing, now is the time!” You really think people care about that? Brother, maybe. 2nd cousin? No. Is Royce’s neighbor next?
Okay, so he’ll fight championship level guys but you think Koscheck, Fitch and Johnson are no names? Then who is left in the division? A 4th GSP fight? Getting destroyed worse than any WW would destroy him by Anderson Silva? (which should be saved for his last fight if they’re doing it.) He says he’s probably not going to actually finish his contract, so that’s 3 or 4 fights. 1 is Renzo, the next 2 or 3 have to count. It can’t be a 3rd Trigg fight.
I don’t think he’s coming back unless they’re really desperate for a title challenger and even then it’s iffy. But regardless, Liddell has made his stars. He legitimized Shogun into a title contender, he single handedly made Rashad Evans a superstar (or actually Rashad’s hand single handledly did…) and although Keith Jardine couldn’t sell a PPV if he offered to split the cost with you, he made him as credible as possible. So if he fights Coleman in the last fight on his contract, it really doesn’t matter. Hughes made GSP a star while he was still a serious contender but he still hasn’t done what Liddell (and Randy) did in the (temporary) end of their careers.
Here’s an article from my blog with minute-by-minute ratings for the Strikeforce broadcast on CBS: http://www.ivansblog.com/2009/11/minute-by-minute-ratings-for.html
“And I wouldn’t call the buyrates “crazy”. I can’t find the Observer issue that listed what some of the pre-cable ban shows got, but none of them reached near 500,000 or anything. I don’t even think they reached 300,000. Which was quite good for having no television and having most of your advertising being negative news pieces, but even if all of the fans from back then are still watching today (and they’re not, even though a million people claim they ordered UFC 1 when it got 75,000 buys) they’re a tiny minority.”
I think the thing that people often misconstrue (not you but those people who think that UFC did mega-buys back in the early days) is that while they were wildly successful ppv’s at the time, they didn’t do these enormous real number buys. The ppv universe was monumentally smaller in the early 90’s than what it is today. So while the ppv buys at the time were very “big”, they aren’t big in terms of actual raw numbers (like say compared to UFC 92 or 100’s numbers).