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	<title>Comments on: The obligatory &#8220;OMG! Fedor vs. Barnett&#8221; post</title>
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		<title>By: Jeremy (not that Jeremy)</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/05/21/the-obligatory-omg-fedor-vs-barnett-post/comment-page-2/#comment-61890</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy (not that Jeremy)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 02:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/?p=4147#comment-61890</guid>
		<description>IceMuncher,

I&#039;ve described the rating system (which then produces the ranking) briefly elsewhere on the site, and I make no claims as to its &quot;accuracy,&quot; only that it is systematic.

Linear is also systematic.  45&#039;s rankings probably have some sort of method to them, but I suspect there&#039;s a fair share of madness as well (as with all opinion rankings) :)

Any systematic rating that claims to be focused on recent performance is going to be lacking too much information to be valuable IMHO.  Talking about just the fights in the last 12 months is kind of ridiculous unless you&#039;re allowing for the ranking of those fighters coming into those 12 months, and then you&#039;re talking about a lifetime system anyway, you&#039;re just calling it something else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IceMuncher,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve described the rating system (which then produces the ranking) briefly elsewhere on the site, and I make no claims as to its &#8220;accuracy,&#8221; only that it is systematic.</p>
<p>Linear is also systematic.  45&#8217;s rankings probably have some sort of method to them, but I suspect there&#8217;s a fair share of madness as well (as with all opinion rankings) <img src='http://www.fightopinion.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Any systematic rating that claims to be focused on recent performance is going to be lacking too much information to be valuable IMHO.  Talking about just the fights in the last 12 months is kind of ridiculous unless you&#8217;re allowing for the ranking of those fighters coming into those 12 months, and then you&#8217;re talking about a lifetime system anyway, you&#8217;re just calling it something else.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/05/21/the-obligatory-omg-fedor-vs-barnett-post/comment-page-2/#comment-61870</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 21:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/?p=4147#comment-61870</guid>
		<description>The lineal title philosophy is all and good to an extent, but the BIGGEST knock against the lineal philosophy?  Well, I will just give you an example........Shannon Briggs was considered the lineal heavyweight champ after he beat George Foreman, and since that Ring Magazine discontinued their title policy during Holyfield&#039;s title reign in 1990.  Ring Magazine didn&#039;t bring it back until during Lennox Lewis&#039; title reign in I believe 2002.

So who wants to recognize Briggs as a former undisputed world heavyweight champ?  Not me!  He had the WBO belt a few years ago, but that is it!  Nothing more!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The lineal title philosophy is all and good to an extent, but the BIGGEST knock against the lineal philosophy?  Well, I will just give you an example&#8230;&#8230;..Shannon Briggs was considered the lineal heavyweight champ after he beat George Foreman, and since that Ring Magazine discontinued their title policy during Holyfield&#8217;s title reign in 1990.  Ring Magazine didn&#8217;t bring it back until during Lennox Lewis&#8217; title reign in I believe 2002.</p>
<p>So who wants to recognize Briggs as a former undisputed world heavyweight champ?  Not me!  He had the WBO belt a few years ago, but that is it!  Nothing more!</p>
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		<title>By: Lester Grimes</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/05/21/the-obligatory-omg-fedor-vs-barnett-post/comment-page-2/#comment-61867</link>
		<dc:creator>Lester Grimes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 18:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/?p=4147#comment-61867</guid>
		<description>1. If Fedor wins, this simply means another former UFC champion (during their caveman era) has fallen to the Russian.  Hardcore fans will get on their knees and worship the Russian, while most mainstream fans will scratch their head, wondering where this Russian came from (assuming they actually know about the event).

2. Nope! Unlike the UFC, Affliction does not leverage Free TV or mainstream media outlets to promote the event.  At least the fans got to see Arvloski on Free Network TV (via Elite XC) before his fight with Fedor. But we all know that Card was probably a financial failure.

3.  Re-read point no. 3.  In addition, FEDOR has a history of being a PPV bust (Bodog, Pride USA &amp; now Affliction). Don&#039;t expect anything to change.

4.  Unless Affliction uses their MMA card as a loss leader to promote their fashion line as a LOSS LEADER, I see a dismal future for them in the MMA fight biz.  You can&#039;t run a successful MMA promotion by having a fight card every 4 to 6 months, especially without any effective promotion or any effective means to attract a larger audience, (other than Hardcore MMA fans).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. If Fedor wins, this simply means another former UFC champion (during their caveman era) has fallen to the Russian.  Hardcore fans will get on their knees and worship the Russian, while most mainstream fans will scratch their head, wondering where this Russian came from (assuming they actually know about the event).</p>
<p>2. Nope! Unlike the UFC, Affliction does not leverage Free TV or mainstream media outlets to promote the event.  At least the fans got to see Arvloski on Free Network TV (via Elite XC) before his fight with Fedor. But we all know that Card was probably a financial failure.</p>
<p>3.  Re-read point no. 3.  In addition, FEDOR has a history of being a PPV bust (Bodog, Pride USA &amp; now Affliction). Don&#8217;t expect anything to change.</p>
<p>4.  Unless Affliction uses their MMA card as a loss leader to promote their fashion line as a LOSS LEADER, I see a dismal future for them in the MMA fight biz.  You can&#8217;t run a successful MMA promotion by having a fight card every 4 to 6 months, especially without any effective promotion or any effective means to attract a larger audience, (other than Hardcore MMA fans).</p>
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		<title>By: Dave2</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/05/21/the-obligatory-omg-fedor-vs-barnett-post/comment-page-2/#comment-61866</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 17:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/?p=4147#comment-61866</guid>
		<description>1. A Fedor win will solidify his dominance of the heavyweight division even more. A Barnett win would be huge but I don&#039;t see it happening.
2. Not sure but it won&#039;t be any more than the Fedor-Arlovski card. Probably less.
3. See number 2
4. Depends on whether this card will come to fruition. If it happens, it&#039;ll be the last card. I don&#039;t see a fourth Affliction event. I&#039;m shocked there&#039;s talk of a third actually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. A Fedor win will solidify his dominance of the heavyweight division even more. A Barnett win would be huge but I don&#8217;t see it happening.<br />
2. Not sure but it won&#8217;t be any more than the Fedor-Arlovski card. Probably less.<br />
3. See number 2<br />
4. Depends on whether this card will come to fruition. If it happens, it&#8217;ll be the last card. I don&#8217;t see a fourth Affliction event. I&#8217;m shocked there&#8217;s talk of a third actually.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergio Hernandez</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/05/21/the-obligatory-omg-fedor-vs-barnett-post/comment-page-2/#comment-61865</link>
		<dc:creator>Sergio Hernandez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 17:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/?p=4147#comment-61865</guid>
		<description>I tried creating Top 10 Heavyweight ranking by going all the way back to pre-2000 and compiling a list of 15 top HWs and comparing their records up to 2000 and ranking them from there.

Then from there, I created a point system which I can&#039;t really recall right now but something along the lines of a win against the #1 ranked fighter gains you 10 points.  Losing to him, though, only drops you 1 point.

The crazy thing about it is that my rankings ended up like what most look like anyway.  Fedor is #1, Mir is #2, Arlovski was #3 or #4, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried creating Top 10 Heavyweight ranking by going all the way back to pre-2000 and compiling a list of 15 top HWs and comparing their records up to 2000 and ranking them from there.</p>
<p>Then from there, I created a point system which I can&#8217;t really recall right now but something along the lines of a win against the #1 ranked fighter gains you 10 points.  Losing to him, though, only drops you 1 point.</p>
<p>The crazy thing about it is that my rankings ended up like what most look like anyway.  Fedor is #1, Mir is #2, Arlovski was #3 or #4, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: The Gaijin</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/05/21/the-obligatory-omg-fedor-vs-barnett-post/comment-page-2/#comment-61863</link>
		<dc:creator>The Gaijin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 14:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/?p=4147#comment-61863</guid>
		<description>So Alan, don&#039;t you see - at the time he fought Sylvia he should have been facing his true #1 contender in Nog (oh wait, he&#039;s destroyed him 2x already).  And when he fought AA he really should have been fighting Frank Mir.  

Give me a break - so basically your giant gripe is that he&#039;s not facing top talent because he hasn&#039;t fought Mir?  If Barnett fought Mir it would be even money.  He tried his damnedest to fight Couture when Couture was the top dog in the UFC, UFC wouldn&#039;t allow it to happen (can&#039;t fault them for that), and I saw NOTHING from Couture that makes me think he wouldn&#039;t get fucking wrecked if they fought.

I basically just have to give up with guys like 45, because they continually try to rearrange the chess pieces to attempt to make their failing argument work.  

e.g. &quot;He needs to fight fighter X, Y, Z to prove he&#039;s fighting &#039;top guys&#039;&quot; --&gt; Destroys X, Y, Z ---&gt; &quot;Well X, Y, Z aren&#039;t even top guys, they were run out of the UFC, he needs to fight A, B, C to prove he&#039;s fighting &#039;top guys&#039;.&quot;  Lather, rinse, repeat as desired.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Alan, don&#8217;t you see &#8211; at the time he fought Sylvia he should have been facing his true #1 contender in Nog (oh wait, he&#8217;s destroyed him 2x already).  And when he fought AA he really should have been fighting Frank Mir.  </p>
<p>Give me a break &#8211; so basically your giant gripe is that he&#8217;s not facing top talent because he hasn&#8217;t fought Mir?  If Barnett fought Mir it would be even money.  He tried his damnedest to fight Couture when Couture was the top dog in the UFC, UFC wouldn&#8217;t allow it to happen (can&#8217;t fault them for that), and I saw NOTHING from Couture that makes me think he wouldn&#8217;t get fucking wrecked if they fought.</p>
<p>I basically just have to give up with guys like 45, because they continually try to rearrange the chess pieces to attempt to make their failing argument work.  </p>
<p>e.g. &#8220;He needs to fight fighter X, Y, Z to prove he&#8217;s fighting &#8216;top guys&#8217;&#8221; &#8211;&gt; Destroys X, Y, Z &#8212;&gt; &#8220;Well X, Y, Z aren&#8217;t even top guys, they were run out of the UFC, he needs to fight A, B, C to prove he&#8217;s fighting &#8216;top guys&#8217;.&#8221;  Lather, rinse, repeat as desired.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Conceicao</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/05/21/the-obligatory-omg-fedor-vs-barnett-post/comment-page-2/#comment-61862</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Conceicao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 11:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/?p=4147#comment-61862</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;There was more to the rankings at this time, but I just put those names in there to show that Arlovski wasn’t even the Top guy in the UFC when he left. There were multiple others ahead of him. And Sylvia wasn’t the top guy either as Randy Couture has beaten him.&lt;/i&gt;

And then Randy left and you campaigned that he drop in the rankings accordingly. And Sylvia dropped because after losing to a fight he dominated most of against Nog, he was wiped out by Fedor. Two of them dropped appreciably, one guy kept winning. What, you think Arlovski should have been penalized for Sylvia&#039;s failures and dropped too? 

In any case, your talk about some sort of linear #2 flies out the window because you removed Randy from that to slot in Noguiera over inactivity. Figure in that Noguiera lost to a guy that&#039;s wasn&#039;t in the top ten at the time prior to Arlovski/Fedor, and then suddenly Arlovski is the #2 contender. Ta da!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>There was more to the rankings at this time, but I just put those names in there to show that Arlovski wasn’t even the Top guy in the UFC when he left. There were multiple others ahead of him. And Sylvia wasn’t the top guy either as Randy Couture has beaten him.</i></p>
<p>And then Randy left and you campaigned that he drop in the rankings accordingly. And Sylvia dropped because after losing to a fight he dominated most of against Nog, he was wiped out by Fedor. Two of them dropped appreciably, one guy kept winning. What, you think Arlovski should have been penalized for Sylvia&#8217;s failures and dropped too? </p>
<p>In any case, your talk about some sort of linear #2 flies out the window because you removed Randy from that to slot in Noguiera over inactivity. Figure in that Noguiera lost to a guy that&#8217;s wasn&#8217;t in the top ten at the time prior to Arlovski/Fedor, and then suddenly Arlovski is the #2 contender. Ta da!</p>
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		<title>By: klown</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/05/21/the-obligatory-omg-fedor-vs-barnett-post/comment-page-2/#comment-61855</link>
		<dc:creator>klown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 03:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/?p=4147#comment-61855</guid>
		<description>Match-making is the precursor to rankings. Most of the irregularities in linear rankings are the result of illogical match-making, due to lack of fighter availability, injury, marketing-driven match-making, or other factors that influence match-making.

In short, ranking perversions happen when an underdog gets the upset in a mismatch. A case in point is Dos Santos - Werdum. Whenever a top fighter is matched against a can with a puncher&#039;s chance, the system is vulnerable to irregularity.

All the limitation will always exist, as well they should (such as promotional interests), so match-making will never be fully logical. However it is useful to come up with principles on what constitutes objective match-making, just to keep in mind.

1. The point of match-making is to determine the best fighter. 

2. To be the champion, beat the champion

3. A fighter coming off a win should be matched against an opponent ranked higher than himself. This gives him the opportunity to rise in the ranks

4. A fighter coming off a loss should be matched against an opponent ranked lower than himself. This allows him to plummet if he loses again, or tread water if he wins

5. Fighters should face opponents who are not too distant from them in the rankings. This helps ensure fair, competitive fights and resolves apparent irregularities

6. It&#039;s good to strive toward giving a tournament-like structure to determining title shots, or at least &quot;#1 contender&quot; fights, rather than giving fighters title shots out of the blue (like Anderson Silva&#039;s last 2 opponents). For example, I would have liked to see Arlovski vs Barnett to determine Fedor&#039;s challenger

7. It should take, at minimum, 2 victories over Top 10 opponents (and no losses between them) to be considered the #1 contender

Based on these principles, Velasquez-Kongo is an excellent match-up. The winner should be one more fight away from a title shot, and that fight should be against a higher-ranked opponent, such as the loser of Mir-Lesnar or the loser of Nogueira-Couture. Defeating Cain or Cheick, then beating any one of those four HW giants, earns any man a title shot

Dos Santos should be matched against Carwin to determine the #1 contender for the HW belt. It would be difficult to deny Dos Santos the shot given decisive victories over Shane and Fabricio. Alternatively, Dos Santos could be exposed, and an undefeated Carwin given the title shot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Match-making is the precursor to rankings. Most of the irregularities in linear rankings are the result of illogical match-making, due to lack of fighter availability, injury, marketing-driven match-making, or other factors that influence match-making.</p>
<p>In short, ranking perversions happen when an underdog gets the upset in a mismatch. A case in point is Dos Santos &#8211; Werdum. Whenever a top fighter is matched against a can with a puncher&#8217;s chance, the system is vulnerable to irregularity.</p>
<p>All the limitation will always exist, as well they should (such as promotional interests), so match-making will never be fully logical. However it is useful to come up with principles on what constitutes objective match-making, just to keep in mind.</p>
<p>1. The point of match-making is to determine the best fighter. </p>
<p>2. To be the champion, beat the champion</p>
<p>3. A fighter coming off a win should be matched against an opponent ranked higher than himself. This gives him the opportunity to rise in the ranks</p>
<p>4. A fighter coming off a loss should be matched against an opponent ranked lower than himself. This allows him to plummet if he loses again, or tread water if he wins</p>
<p>5. Fighters should face opponents who are not too distant from them in the rankings. This helps ensure fair, competitive fights and resolves apparent irregularities</p>
<p>6. It&#8217;s good to strive toward giving a tournament-like structure to determining title shots, or at least &#8220;#1 contender&#8221; fights, rather than giving fighters title shots out of the blue (like Anderson Silva&#8217;s last 2 opponents). For example, I would have liked to see Arlovski vs Barnett to determine Fedor&#8217;s challenger</p>
<p>7. It should take, at minimum, 2 victories over Top 10 opponents (and no losses between them) to be considered the #1 contender</p>
<p>Based on these principles, Velasquez-Kongo is an excellent match-up. The winner should be one more fight away from a title shot, and that fight should be against a higher-ranked opponent, such as the loser of Mir-Lesnar or the loser of Nogueira-Couture. Defeating Cain or Cheick, then beating any one of those four HW giants, earns any man a title shot</p>
<p>Dos Santos should be matched against Carwin to determine the #1 contender for the HW belt. It would be difficult to deny Dos Santos the shot given decisive victories over Shane and Fabricio. Alternatively, Dos Santos could be exposed, and an undefeated Carwin given the title shot.</p>
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		<title>By: klown</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/05/21/the-obligatory-omg-fedor-vs-barnett-post/comment-page-2/#comment-61854</link>
		<dc:creator>klown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 02:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/?p=4147#comment-61854</guid>
		<description>Notes:

* Fedor is the undisputed champion. Nobody has dominated the division as thoroughly as he has. He holds wins against #3 Nogueira (x3), #6 Sylvia, #7 Arlovski, #13 Herring and #15 CroCop

* Nogueira is one crossover point. In addition to holding UFC wins over #6 Sylvia and #13 Herring, he also holds PRIDE wins over  #15 CroCop and #16 Barnett. Mir\&#039;s win over Nogueira earns him the #2 spot

* Dos Santos\&#039;s high ranking is a potential irregularity. I say \&quot;potential\&quot; because time will tell, and his ranking might prove justified. But it seems intuitively odd for fighters with short records to rise suddenly due to a single win over a top-ranked opponent. I believe this level of potential irregularity is tolerable in the short run, and the wrinkles are ironed out by the system over time. In other words, if Dos Santos\&#039;s knockout of Werdum was a fluke, he will steadily plummet in the rankings, as did Houston Alexander and Sokoudjou, for example. For the mystery to vanish, Dos Santos must not be matched against cans like Struve, but must be tested against top caliber competition to see if he belongs

* The other major crossover point is CroCop. His poor performance in the UFC is the main reason for ranking the UFC (and former UFC) elite decisively above the former PRIDE elite (with the exception of Fedor). CroCop holds wins over #16 Barnett and #17 Aleks, and losses to UFC\&#039;s #11 Gonzaga and #14 Kongo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Notes:</p>
<p>* Fedor is the undisputed champion. Nobody has dominated the division as thoroughly as he has. He holds wins against #3 Nogueira (x3), #6 Sylvia, #7 Arlovski, #13 Herring and #15 CroCop</p>
<p>* Nogueira is one crossover point. In addition to holding UFC wins over #6 Sylvia and #13 Herring, he also holds PRIDE wins over  #15 CroCop and #16 Barnett. Mir\&#8217;s win over Nogueira earns him the #2 spot</p>
<p>* Dos Santos\&#8217;s high ranking is a potential irregularity. I say \&#8221;potential\&#8221; because time will tell, and his ranking might prove justified. But it seems intuitively odd for fighters with short records to rise suddenly due to a single win over a top-ranked opponent. I believe this level of potential irregularity is tolerable in the short run, and the wrinkles are ironed out by the system over time. In other words, if Dos Santos\&#8217;s knockout of Werdum was a fluke, he will steadily plummet in the rankings, as did Houston Alexander and Sokoudjou, for example. For the mystery to vanish, Dos Santos must not be matched against cans like Struve, but must be tested against top caliber competition to see if he belongs</p>
<p>* The other major crossover point is CroCop. His poor performance in the UFC is the main reason for ranking the UFC (and former UFC) elite decisively above the former PRIDE elite (with the exception of Fedor). CroCop holds wins over #16 Barnett and #17 Aleks, and losses to UFC\&#8217;s #11 Gonzaga and #14 Kongo</p>
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		<title>By: klown</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2009/05/21/the-obligatory-omg-fedor-vs-barnett-post/comment-page-2/#comment-61853</link>
		<dc:creator>klown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 02:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/?p=4147#comment-61853</guid>
		<description>1. F. Emilianenko
2. Mir
3. Nogueira
4. Lesnar
5. Couture
6. Sylvia
7. Arlovski
8. Dos Santos
9. Werdum
10. Carwin
11. Gonzaga
12. Velasquez
13. Herring
14. Kongo
15. CroCop
16. Barnett
17. A. Emilianenko
18. Monson
19. Kharitanov
20. Overeem</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. F. Emilianenko<br />
2. Mir<br />
3. Nogueira<br />
4. Lesnar<br />
5. Couture<br />
6. Sylvia<br />
7. Arlovski<br />
8. Dos Santos<br />
9. Werdum<br />
10. Carwin<br />
11. Gonzaga<br />
12. Velasquez<br />
13. Herring<br />
14. Kongo<br />
15. CroCop<br />
16. Barnett<br />
17. A. Emilianenko<br />
18. Monson<br />
19. Kharitanov<br />
20. Overeem</p>
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