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« | Home | »

BJ Penn’s camp files legal inquiry for NSAC investigation

By Zach Arnold | February 4, 2009

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BJ Penn has just added oxygen to this situation by filing for a request for an investigation by the NSAC into the actions of Georges St. Pierre’s cornermen. This is not a formal complaint.

Here is the main argument from Penn’s camp in the filing:

“This illegal situation made it impossible for Mr. Penn to defend himself and unfairly exposed Mr. Penn to GSP’s ‘ground and pound’ strategy, which Mr. Penn extensively trained for and was fully prepared to perform against,” the letter states. “More importantly, by neutralizing Mr. Penn’s Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu abilities through the use of illegal and improper means, Mr. Penn was subjected to a life threatening and career ending environment; an environment that the Commission was formed to protect against.”

More information on the new filing can be read here, here, and here.

Dr. J says that the heat should be on the NSAC in this incident.

Topics: Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 30 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

30 Responses to “BJ Penn’s camp files legal inquiry for NSAC investigation”

  1. 45 Huddle says:

    The best thing that can happen with this are better rules in the future. It is obvious that the current rules in place to not do the athletes justice.

    Here are the things that should be illegal:

    1. Long hair (like Clay Guida)

    2. Hair Gel or hair products (Joe Lauzon on the UG said it can have an impact)

    3. Any vaseline, anywhere on the body (including the face).

    4. Any body lotions.

    5. Water being used on a fighter between rounds. And if it gets on the fighter, it needs to be wiped off.

  2. John Castignollo says:

    In the end this will only tarnish BJ Penn’s legacy. The great majority of fans will see him as a crybaby who talked shit and then got his ass handed to him.

  3. Ultimo Santa says:

    The NSAC could be run by a team of monkeys and non one would know the difference.

    If you’re going to ALLOW cornermen to use Vaseline in between rounds, and you’re worried about trace amounts getting on a fighter’s back, chest or arms, then have a NSAC guy there to towel down everywhere but the face.

    I like Matt Hughes’ recent comment “GSP felt greasy the last two times I fought him”. Really? So the first time, when you won, everything was fair? (insert laughing smiley face here)

  4. doem says:

    “More importantly, by neutralizing Mr. Penn’s Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu abilities through the use of illegal and improper means”

    Heh, they make it sound like Jiu-Jitsu is a super power.

  5. Pierre-Luc Allie says:

    What a sure loser..

    Why not a single blog comment on GSP interview on Sherdog Radio??? GSP pretty much claim his innocence and he offered a rematch to Penn AND Hughes with a rashguard on. He was really pissed that people were attacking his integrity. He had an “enough is enough” attitude.

    And he bothers me that people like Zack seem to think that an investigation would do anything. Come on guys… The ONLY thing that can be done is to adjust the rules and make sure GSP is clean against Alves.

    And once GSP wipes the floor with Alves with the entire commision watching his corner, his back, his cornerman hands etc… A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GONNA LOOK LIKE IDIOTS.

    All an investigation would do is take GSP reputation in the mud. Nothing more!

    Let’s face it your bjj prodigy just got outwrestle by a wrestler with 6 years of training…

  6. doem says:

    I know, it sucks

    but hey, thats what happens when THERE IS TAPE SHOWING YOUR CORONER MAN PUTTING VASELINE ON YOUR BACK.

  7. 45 Huddle says:

    Anybody a big baseball fan here?

    When I think of this incident… I don’t think of Akiyama/Sakuraba. I think of the PINE TAR incident between George Brett and the Yankees. Eventually, Brett’s homer counted.

    Pine tar was allowed, but I believe they had some old rule saying it could only go up so high on the bat. That rule was eventually changed.

    In both cases, you either allow the substance or you don’t. But when you try and define how much is too much or if there was any amounts left over on a cornerman’s hands….. It is really splitting hairs at that point, and just bad for the sport.

  8. Ultimo Santa says:

    “In both cases, you either allow the substance or you don’t. But when you try and define how much is too much or if there was any amounts left over on a cornerman’s hands….. It is really splitting hairs at that point, and just bad for the sport.”

    Exactly. This sums it all up.

  9. Pierre-Luc Allie says:

    An Investigation would not:

    -Make it clear that if it was accidental or intentionnal
    -Reverse the decision
    -Clear the name of anyone involve
    -Clear the name of the Nevada commision

    The story didn’t evolve since Sunday morning. You really think an investigation would make the story clearer? NO WAY! The mma blogosphère never looked so mediocre. That’s saying a lot…

    Modify the rules, follow GSP with a lot of scrutiny at his next 3 fight. It’s the only think they can do.

    Hughes, Miller and Hughes should be accountable by the fans for what they are saying right now.

  10. samscaff says:

    Hey guess what people…this thing is going nowhere.

    There is no actual written rule against greasing and the area is completely gray as far as precedent goes. So if the commission tries to suspend one of the cornermen, and they decide to fight back, the commission’s case is pretty weak without an actual rule to cite.

  11. The Citizen says:

    Zach, could Pride have been exciting because scandals like this were not understood by the American fans?

    Now that MMA has become King here in the U.S., I find it detracts from the actual fights.

    Even knowing some Japanese, most of the inside dealings and scandals such as these always seemed smaller then the actual fights.

    Is this similar to what it would feel like to be a native Japanese MMA fan looking from the outside in?

    My solution — heat dry the fighters in between rounds.

  12. Ivan Trembow says:

    As I said in the other thread:

    Based on the irrefutable facts of the case (cornerman’s hand rubbing St. Pierre’s face with vaseline and then immediately rubbing his back prior to the start of Round 2, athletic commission not cleaning off St. Pierre’s back until after Round 2, etc.), all we do know for sure is that it COULD have given St. Pierre an unfair advantage in Round 2.

    It takes willful disregard of the facts to believe that there is zero chance that St. Pierre COULD have had any kind of unfair advantage in Round 2.

    However, the bigger point of my previous post was that when something improper happens, it doesn’t need to have affected the outcome of a fight for it to be a serious matter.

    Again, they are two different scenarios, but the stand-up agreement in the Petruzelli/Slice fight had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of the fight. But I was all over the story, and so were most people, and the fact that the stand-up agreement had zero impact on the outcome of the fight wasn’t going to change that, because something improper still occurred.

    If someone had said, “It didn’t affect the outcome of the fight, so it’s a non-issue that we should all stop talking about!” they would have been laughed off the forums.

    If someone had suggested that the people writing about this or pressing for further investigation should stop what they’re doing because they’re hurting the sport, that would have been even more ridiculous.

    And yet both of these things have happened on multiple sites with the St. Pierre vaseline incidents.

    Somehow, the false argument has been created that if one can successfully argue that the vaseline definitely had no impact on the fight, then that makes it a non-story.

    Well, that wouldn’t make it a non-story. Something improper still happened.

  13. robthom says:

    What is penn trying to accomplish here?

    Does he want he win overturned or something even though he got his ass kicked 12 ways from tuesday with or without a dab of grease?

    If penn thought the grease had anything to do with it why isn’t he calling for a rematch and why he talking about retirement instead?

    penn is just a litigious princess and a sore loser IMO.
    Him and tito should move to brazil and open up a gym just for whiny bullsh!ters.

    BTW: Remember that time that penn said that gsp was a quitter and he was gonna fight him to the death?!
    Steaming bullsh!t should be just as illegal as grease.

    But on the other hand, I do understand that if something was done illegal that it should be pointed out so that it isn’t done again.
    But this can be taking care of without filing complaints with the nsac.
    Its not like anyones gonna make that mistake again after all this hoopla.

    Plus even though the video shows the guy probably had some grease on his hands, it doesn’t seem to me that anyone with half a brain would be trying to intentionally cheat right in front of multiple cameras and nsac officials?!
    I would think that its more likely the guy just had a brain fart in all the excitement.

    I think it would have been much more respectable for penn to let it go now since its been sufficiently noted and just move on.

  14. Asa says:

    Good point, Ivan.

  15. IceMuncher says:

    As far as I’m concerned, the ACs should suspend Phil Nurse from cornering for about 6 months, and have their officials pay attention to the issue and prevent it from occurring again.

    Then we can call it a day and move on.

  16. Jeremy says:

    45,
    Ban LONG HAIR? Why?

    IceMuncher proposal is sound, suspend Nurse for a period of time, maybe Jackson as well.

  17. big boi says:

    long hair could already be banned at the Commission’s discretion…..

    3. The Commission’s representative shall determine whether head or facial hair presents any hazard to the safety of the unarmed combatant or his opponent or will interfere with the supervision and conduct of the contest or exhibition. If the head or facial hair of an unarmed combatant presents such a hazard or will interfere with the supervision and conduct of the contest or exhibition, the unarmed combatant may not compete in the contest or exhibition unless the circumstances creating the hazard or potential interference are corrected to the satisfaction of the Commission’s representative.

  18. 45 Huddle says:

    long hair poses a few problems.

    1. The amount of hair products that could be stored in there. When the fight gets sweaty, that is all over both fighters bodies and makes it tougher to grapple.

    2. The amount of water that can be poured in the hair between rounds, and then that water is all over the fighter throughout the round.

    3. Neck submissions become more difficult. Especially Guillotines.

    4. Even just every part of grappling becomes different when a fighter has long hair.

  19. skwirrl says:

    Station Casinos attempting to set up terms with its bondholders to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy

  20. Jason says:

    I’m confused in how the vaseline hinders BJ’s ability to defend GSP kicking his a$$ on their feet. BJ’s a sore loser, GSP was defending perfectly everytime BJ’s legs would begin to move up his back (before they even got to GSP’s shoulders), GSP would posture up at the exact time he needed to. BJ’s got his a$$ handed to him in every facet of the game…deal with it, you got beat by a better fighter and vaseline had nothing to do with it.

  21. Fan Futbol says:

    Ivan,

    You’re thinking about this from a journalist’s perspective, not a legal one.

    First, grease on the body is only illegal if it is “excessive.” I strongly think “incidental” is different than “excessive,” and I believe what happened here — based on YOUR video footage of what happened after round ONE — was “incidental” grease. My view is not based on a “willful disregard” of the facts. It’s a legal argument based on the most reasonable reading of the regulation as written. You may disagree, but don’t confuse factual views with legal ones.

    Second, whether it “could” have affected the fight: I don’t believe it did. Appellate courts (where I largely practice) routinely resolve matters by determining that, although a technical violation may have occurred in the trial court, the verdict is not reversible b/c the error is “harmless error.” Put another way: before determining the remedy, appellate courts determine whether the alleged error was likely to have had a material consequence — not that, in some speculative sense, it “could” have.

    So, either you believe that (1) grease applied was excessive AND it affected the outcome, in which case GSP should be severely punished, or (2) the grease applied was not excessive BUT it still affected the outcome, in which case GSP should not be punished but the rule should almost certainly be changed to prevent this from happening again, or (3) that grease applied was not excessive and it had no effect on the outcome, in which case no penalty should occur here, but a rule change might be appropriate to prevent scenario #2 from happening in the future.

    I’m in scenario 3. Where are you?

    FF

  22. klown says:

    Well put, FF.

    Count me as a #3

  23. IceMuncher says:

    ^^^
    Attencio and the CEO of Golden Boy.

  24. Big Bill Bob says:

    Kekeke, Zach was wrong, oh well. Maybe next show he will actually have proper coverage rather then hate for the most exciting MMA show in the world.

    Greasy St. Pierre is a discredit to this fine sport and unfortunately some sites like Sherdog rank him higher P4P then Fedor, a man who molests his opponents in one round rather then greasing up and punishing them. GSP is claimed to be a classy guy but hes the complete opposite attempting to hurt or maim his opposition by cheating, while Fedor just puts the lights out and spars any unnecessary damage. Atleast Josh Gross has Fedor ranked 1, and reflects who actually possessed the knowledge on Shatdog compared to their current board of goons.

  25. Pierre-Luc Allie says:

    Oh come on…

    It’s funny how a small amout of vaseline transform GSP into the biggest cheater in the sport…

    MMA fans are idiots.

  26. Ivan Trembow says:

    “First, grease on the body is only illegal if it is “excessive.””

    This is an important distinction.

    Vaseline on the face is not allowed only if it’s deemed “excessive,” and it’s up to the discretion of the athletic commission to determine what is “excessive.”

    Vaseline on the body is not allowed in any quantity whatsoever, and the NSAC says that it reminds fighters and/or their camps of this fact before fights. This is similar to fighters being able to gamble on their own fights — whether it’s betting on themselves or betting against themselves — in the sense that there is technically nothing in the official rules that clearly says “you can’t do that,” and yet if you do it and the athletic commission finds out about it, you’re going to be in major trouble. While everyone knows that you can’t do it, the NSAC should really codify it in the rules, just to cover their own asses from a legal standpoint. I agree with you about that much. However, that doesn’t change that anyone who knowingly applies vaseline to a fighter’s back is doing something improper, and anyone who knowingly or unknowingly gets vaseline applied to their back is potentially gaining an unfair advantage.

  27. Fan Futbol says:

    My last post on this, I promise.

    I agree the rule should be changed.

    But under the current rule, I cannot agree that “excessive” means, as Ivan claims, “any vaseline in any quantity on the body.” That’s just not what the regulation says, and language matters.

    Kizer says vaseline on the body is improper because he (rightfully) doesn’t want to be making judgment calls every fight as to what is excessive and what is not. So, in practice, “no grease” is the safe harbor for cornermen and fighters. But that still does not mean that an incidental, small amount of vaseline is (1) per se illegal or (2) that it affected the fight.

    And I certainly don’t agree that incidental vaseline application is nearly as serious as steroids or gambling on fights. A fighter can get vaseline on his shoulders/back from a clinch with another fighter. Steroids and gambling, not so much.

    FF

  28. Ivan Trembow says:

    To be clear, I wasn’t saying that greasing is an offense that is on the same level as steroids or gambling, I was just comparing them to illustrate that not all of the rules that the NSAC enforces are actually in the rule book. To that end, you’re right that it doesn’t say this in the actual regulations, but Keith Kizer says that the NSAC regularly tells fighters and/or their corners that vaseline of any quantity on the body is not allowed. In addition, the NSAC’s inspectors are told to watch out for cornermen applying vaseline to fighters’ bodies and to not allow it in any quantity. If the NSAC inspector had been doing his job properly in between Rounds 1 and 2 of the GSP/Penn fight, the vaseline would have been wiped off before Round 2 ever started, instead of being wiped off after Round 2 was finished.

  29. Grape Knee High says:

    Personally, I am still shocked that anyone outside of a cutman is allowed to walk around with friggin’ can of Vaseline in the cage in-between rounds.

    If anything positive comes out of this debacle, it is the prohibition of Vaseline anywhere near a cornerman’s hands.

  30. klown says:

    Is it me or is there a unanimous consensus in the blogosphere for a total ban of vaseline use by cornermen (not counting cutmen/docs)?

    We may disagree on the GSP story, but here’s something we can all get behind.

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