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Does the UFC now have their own version of the “Akiyama” scandal?
By Zach Arnold | February 1, 2009
Update: MMA Weekly has Greg Jackson’s unique take on the situation. Steve Cofield responds. The ‘NSAC official’ who went after GSP’s cornerman? Keith Kizer himself.
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For those of you who don’t follow the Japanese MMA scene, it was approximately two years ago when Japanese judoka Yoshihiro Akiyama faced the legendary Kazushi Sakuraba on a K-1-promoted event on New Year’s Eve called Dynamite. Akiyama beat Sakuraba in the fight, but Sakuraba was screaming to the referee throughout the match that Akiyama had some sort of substance on him that made it hard to hold onto him. Eventually, it was revealed that Akiyama had been using skin lotion and that the substance made him slippery. He was promptly suspended by K-1.
Now, UFC finds itself in a developing controversy regarding the Georges St. Pierre/BJ Penn mega-fight that took place on Saturday night at the MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas. Cage Potato reports that BJ Penn’s camp has filed a formal complaint with the Nevada State Athletic Commission, claiming that a cornerman for St. Pierre was rubbing vaseline on his back in-between rounds.
If the NSAC agrees that indeed rules were violated, it will immediately taint St. Pierre’s dominant win over Penn. I realize and you realize that St. Pierre put on a dominant performance, but Penn’s camp has a perfectly legitimate gripe here if the accusations of vaseline usage (in this manner) are true. While Dana White tried to soften the blow of the allegations about possible illegal vaseline usage on St. Pierre, the fact that White is trying to deflect all the heat for the incident on a cornerman and not on St. Pierre is unacceptable.
As I laid out recently in a new article, the heat is on Keith Kizer and the NSAC. First, questions about Antonio Margarito (stemming from the California State Athletic Commission’s investigation into him). Second, questions promptly raised by Ivan Trembow regarding the NSAC not performing out-of-competition drug testing for the last two month’s worth of MMA shows. And now, you can add this brand new complaint filed by Penn’s camp against St. Pierre.
Here is St. Pierre’s side of the story.
Fightlinker, as usual, strikes the right tone.
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Man, sounds like sour grapes. I noticed GSP’s trainer doing that and all I thought was “hmm his trainers keeping him loose” I also noticed him (the trainer) rubbing GSP’s temples between rounds looking like he wanted him to stay relaxed. I know that MT trainers will rub out a fighters legs or arms between rounds and that looked like the sort of thing that was going on. I’m REALLY dubious about anything that comes out of BJ’s camp right now.
If the NSAC wiped Georges down like St. Pierre say they did, there shouldn’t be much of an issue with this particular fight.
But like with any other potential “scandal”, I wonder if Georges’ corner men have any history of this…I doubt it, but THAT could have an affect on GSP’s image.
Spacedog- According to Dana White at the post-fight press conference, the commission was “freaking out” as if it was a big deal.
I’d imagine that if this had been anything other than a huge fight, the fighter who got vaseline put on his back would have been disqualified on the spot.
It’s not the fighter’s fault, but still, that’s your cornerman. To use an extreme example, if a fighter’s cornerman jumps into the cage in the middle of a round and attacks the other fighter, that would also not be the fighter’s fault, but it would almost surely result in a disqualification.
Agree with Body_Shots, if the NSAC freaked out they rubbed it off right?
Yeah, shame on the cornerman and tsk-tsk GSP, but a formal complaint? Sour grapes.
I wish we could have seen what actually happened. How much vaseline was applied, who applied it, what the commission did, etc. They have cameras in both corners in between every round, and from what Dana White said at the post-fight press conference, it sounds like it would have been a big commotion, but they apparently decided not to show the incident during the fight or after the fight, unless they did and I missed it.
I don’t think anything will come of this. If it’s a highly legit complaint, it will be minimized and pushed under the rug.
I can’t believe that anyone is actually taking this seriuos, BJ is a crybaby he just can’t accept losing like a man so he always looks for an excuse.
GSP dominated him from beggining to end he was never in any trouble in the fight. For anyone to try and claim any kind of taint on GSP’s win would be reaching to a level never before seen before in MMA.
Anyone that isn’t BJ nuthugger would admit that this is just sour grapes from a guy who embarrased and wants to save face. But it isn’t going to work BJ is going to have to live with this loss and being humbled for the rest of his life.
EJ— I don’t think anyone is saying that this is why GSP won the fight.
From looking at the tape, it was hard to see much because the director kept cutting away every time vaseline would be on-screen or a towel would be on-screen, but you can clearly see that one of GSP’s trainers rubs his back between Rounds 1 and 2, although you can’t see whether the trainer has anything on this hands. The incident with the athletic commission definitely happened between Rounds 2 and 3. You can see in the seconds right before Round 3 started that one of the NSAC inspectors was thrown a towel and gave St. Pierre’s back a very brief rub-down as the round was about to start. Then, between Rounds 3 and 4, it looks like St. Pierre’s back got a much more thorough rub-down with towels. Again, it’s hard to determine much from this because the director kept cutting away from it.
I know what happened, what i’m saying is that unless GSP was oiled up from head to toe this is a non-story. The accusation is that GSP having vaseline on his back=The fight being a no contest because it gave him an unfair advantage over Penn which is simply false.
GSP was simply the better fighter, to claim this as anykind of scandal is to give BJ Penn exactly what he wants. Another excuse in a long line of excuses coming from a guy who has brainwashed the MMA community into believing his hype.
Sound pretty scummy to me. I haven’t seen the fight, but I remember being miffed years ago when Akiyama got caught doing the same thing.
What if vaseline was used before the fight even began and the trainer was re-applying it?
Congrats to FO for brining this up.
Do me a favor see the fight and then come back and tell me how it was the vaseline that helped GSP win.
Smoogy posted several damning gifs in this thread on the underground. As for whether it would’ve helped GSP win, the first of these gifs is from after round 1, in other words, before the fight ever hit the ground. That would mean that we NEVER SAW any action on the ground before the application of vaseline on his back. If BJ got it on his legs by playing high guard, that could’ve been a factor in his inability to keep GSP in his guard, control his posture, or effectively attempt submissions.
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=1&thread=1411250&page=1&pc=53
I can confirm that Kizer came springing into the cage, yelling at people, and that they took a towel to GSP’s back.
Not a big issue.
1. Akiyama did it before the fight.
2. GSP explained it during MMA Live. He said his cornerman forgot it was on his hand, and they wiped it off before he went out there.
3. This story has gotten zero coverage. Likely because it isn’t much of a story. Sherdog, MMAWeekly, MMAJunkie, & Yahoo! have all ignored the story. Only 5oz’s has touched it, and I doubt it will have legs.
Nobody is dumb enough to do that intentionally with all the fans and cameras around. And it’s not like it had much of an effect on the fight itself. Very different then Akiyama greasing up his legs intentionally because he knew Sakuraba would go for those low singles.
Some people love to complain after a loss. This is an example of it.
I was wondering why Penn wasn’t able to control GSP’s posture when GSP took him down. He kept going for rubber guard and GSP would pop right out. I don’t think BJ would’ve won because Pierre’s striking was tighter than BJ’s.
BJ’s guard was passed at will for two reasons. First, because GSP is a better grappler then him. Secondly, because GSP is a bigger fighter and after a round or two, Penn was gassed, and couldn’t stop anything. Not to mention that Penn has never been overly effective from his back in MMA.
If you look at the gifs in the thread I posted, you’ll see it happened on multiple occasions in this fight, AND in other fights. Also, Sherk has complained about GSP greasing, and Mayhem stated in an interview with FIGHT! magazine that somebody who kicked his ass in the UFC was greasing. Tito also made a similar accusation against Rashad, and a professional fighter in the thread says he saw something similar in Rashad’s fight with Forrest.
Show me the Tito accusation. Never heard that one before.
Rewatched Griffin/Evans between rounds. There was nothing that showed Rashad being greesed up. And just because of “professional fighter” says something, doesn’t mean it’s true. Remember the rant Mike Whitehead was on after UFC 92? Some of these guys aren’t the most educated and start making excuses for their training partners.
And I love how Mayhem (who has a criminal record), and Sherk (who was caught cheating himself), all of a sudden become credible sources.
And for the Sherk thing, show me the proof on that one too. Never heard of that one either.
Tito accusation is from the post fight press conference. Sherk accusation was from an interview, may have been with Sherdog. I’ve seen people posting saying they remember it, and it rang a bell when I read it, but I’m not going to scour every minute of every podcast with Sherk on it I may have listened to to find it.
Okay, I decided to look up the Tito/Rashad stuff. He did make the accusation.
Funny that when I was looking that up, I also came across Tito accusing Forrest Griffin of greasing up behind his knees to prevent the takedown.
So I would say Tito’s credibility is pretty much shot.
A simple google search turned up this for the Sherk accusation as result #1.
http://forums.mmanews.com/general-mma-forum/4618-sherk-accusing-gsp-oiling-2.html
It doesn’t have to have changed the outcome of the fight for it to be a big issue. A cornerman could be banned for life. That’s not a non-issue.
Also, there’s a big difference between various accusations from previous fights and actual video footage of the cornerman rubbing GSP’s back before Round 2 right after he had just been rubbing vaseline on GSP’s face; and video footage of the NSAC inspector being thrown a towel in the seconds immediately before Round 3 started and rubbing GSP’s back with it for a couple of seconds before the round started; and video footage of GSP’s back getting a more thorough rubdown between Rounds 3 and 4.
I do think that cornerman should be banned for life. Whether he says it’s a mistake or not, that’s a complete no no.
Personally, I don’t think the guys for the commission do enough. I hate it when a fighter has water poured on them right before the start of the next round. That should be wiped off, and it almost never is.
As for this issue, it’s not much of an issue. It was wiped off. It didn’t effect the fight.
Looking up greasing, there have been many claims of fighters doing it. Nogueira’s corner said Sylvia put on some sort of lotion. I remember Josh Thomson accusing Clay Guida of doing it.
Not sure how often it goes on, but I do think it helps some of the losing fighters (or fighters who took a beating and still winning) sleep better at night.
Look at the tape. It appeared to be applied after Round 1 and NOT rubbed off at all until after Round 2, and even then it was only a very brief rub in the seconds immediately before Round 3 started. The thorough rub-down is not until after Round 3. Just saying “It was wiped off” doesn’t turn it into a non-story. Like I said before, I’m not saying that this is why GSP won the fight, but to say that it didn’t happen or is not newsworthy is to simply ignore the evidence.
It wasn’t wiped off the first time it was applied, and there’s no way to know if it mixed with his sweat and spread, got on BJ’s legs, etc between when it was applied (that we know of) at the start of round 2 (before they had even hit the groudn the first time.and GSP was wiped between rounds 3 and 4, or if said vaseline hindered BJ’s ability to be effective with his jujitsu game to a point that would affect the outcome of the fight.
Apologies for the butchered post, I was having a glitch where I couldn’t see a large portion of the text after I typed it.
The guy who does it, is Phil Nurse Georges’ Muay Thai trainer. It’s not uncommon for Thai trainers to rub their fighter’s head, back & legs.
The question is whether Nurse rubbed Vaseline on St-Pierre, gifs of him just rubbing his body is useless when there are reports of the commission taking Vaseline from his corner and rubbing him down in between rounds. Evidence of the later could be damning, especially if it’s a trend.
But like I said the commission saw it happen during Saturday’s bout and stopped it, I doubt it had much effect if any on the outcome of the fight.
If you watch the footage rather than just the gifs, you can clearly see vaseline being rubbed first on GSP’s face, then immediately on his body. The GIF of the incident between round 1-2 starts too late to see it. As for the vaseline being taken away, both that and the vaseline being rubbed off weren’t until the later rounds, when the vaseline already would’ve had time to affect the fight.
“If you watch the footage rather than just the gifs, you can clearly see vaseline being rubbed first on GSP’s face, then immediately on his body.”
That is true, or at least that the same hand that was rubbing vaseline on his face is immediately thereafter rubbing vaseline on his body. It’s between Rounds 1 and 2 and it’s clear as day on the tape.
No one would be banned for life for greasing. That is completely false and has never happened. You should not be spreading such false rumors.
Ivan Trembow seems to really be pushing this story hard and making outrageous claims. Not sure why but it seems suspicious to me.
During a fight any fighter can complain to the commission about greasing and all they have to do is just feel the opponents body to see if it’s true. Very simple. For the trainer of such an elite fighter to intentionally do this in the biggest fight of his life while being directly observed by officials is preposterous.
First of all, did Penn or his corner actually complain about this during the fight? Is this what prompted the commission to take action? If not, I cannot give this complaint any credence. Second, if the commission found this out between rounds 2 and 3, then presumably after that point they made sure GSP was not greased. And rounds 3 and 4 were when he did the most damage and dominated on the ground. So clearly the greasing is not what allowed GSP to dominate and finish this fight.
BJ Penn should really be ashamed of himself not only for quitting on his stool after talking so much shit, but now for trying to make excuses. Especially considering the point I just made about rounds 3 and 4. I have lost alot of respect for BJ Penn because of this. I dont lose respect for a fighter for quitting- but to personally insult another fighter’s heart and then to quit himself is just pathetic.
I rewatched it.
There is no way of knowing if there was still any vasoline on his hands by the time he rubbed the rest of his body.
Heck, take some KY, which is a far better lubricant then vasoline…. And if I were to rub my own face with it as much as his trainer did, by the time i went to rub the rest of my body, there wouldn’t be any substance being rubbed. And if there were, they would be such minimal traces that it wouldn’t have an impact on the fight.
I’m not saying GSP’s vasoline guy did good things here. But if he rubbed the body first, then BJ’s corner would have a case. He did not. And without knowing if there was any substance still on his fingers by the time he rubbed GSP’s body, there is no way for Penn’s team to win this.
So, if BJ had spent his entire career in UFC instead of putting in time in K-1…would the battle lines be the same on this issue?
No to mention that the commission itself specifically mandates that vaseline to be glopped all over the fighers’ faces before the fight and due to sweat and the fact the fighters are wrestling and grappling, the vaseline inevitably gets all over the fighter’s upper body.
Big Nog has said that that was a major change when he came to the UFC that fighters were alot more slippery because of the vaseline that they are allowed to put on their face, which eventually ends up on their bodies. In Pride no vaseline was allowed whatsoever. Considering that the fighters ARE grappling, I dont think any vaseline should be used in MMA.
“Ivan Trembow seems to really be pushing this story hard and making outrageous claims. Not sure why but it seems suspicious to me.”
Its because he pops boners hating on anything UFC. Take most of what he says with a grain of salt.
GSP is my all-time favorite fighter and this is breaking my heart right now. I thought it was awfully weird that Penn’s rubber guard seemed useless against GSP during the fight.
I guess that I, and for that matter all of us, will have to wait and see how this plays out.
[Ivan Trembow seems to really be pushing this story hard and making outrageous claims. Not sure why but it seems suspicious to me.]
Ivan is a sensationalist, especially when the UFC is involved, look at this statement…
[I’d imagine that if this had been anything other than a huge fight, the fighter who got vaseline put on his back would have been disqualified on the spot.]
This is completely bogus, and 100% horse sh-t. When has a fighter been disqualified on the spot for that act?
Since Ivan avoided my questioning (like he always does) like the plague I went to the unified rules myself and looked it up and here’s what it states.
NAC 467.598 Physical appearance of unarmed combatants.
2. The excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant. The referees or the Commission’s representative in charge shall cause any excessive grease or foreign substance to be removed.
Sounds exactly like what the commission did to me.
With all due respect, I only saw BJ Penn try to use his rubber guard once in that fight. And as I pointed out before, the vast majority of the time that GSP was in Penn’s guard was in rounds 3 and 4. And by the point there could not have been any grease on GSP’s body. And if it was in fact between rounds 1 and 2 that the commission found him greasy, then my point is even more strong.
lol, Dana White said himself that the cornerman should be banned for life unless it was accidental, so it’s not just me imagining this.
Isn’t it a possibility that he only tried to use it once because it was ineffective, and a factor in it being ineffective was vaseline being on the area he was trying to grip with his legs?
It’s possible that he also decided that defending the takedown was ineffective after the first round. Whatever strategy choices BJ was making, they were incredibly ineffective.
samscaff makes the best arguement of any of us. I’m going to give some examples of how this can effect a fight….
1. GSP goes for a single on BJ’s right leg. During that time, GSP’s face rubs against Penn’s leg. Now, BJ’s leg is greased and he might have an easier time avoiding takedowns.
2. GSP is in Penn’s guard. During this time, his face rubs up against Penn’s chest. Now Penn has a greased chest. if Penn gets on top later in the fight, his slippery body could make it easier to pass guard.
3. GSP goes for a guillotine against Penn. During the process, his forearms now have vasoline on it. During the next standup exchange, BJ goes to grab for GSP’s arm for wrist control. Due to the vasoline, the arm keeps slipping out.
If the commission had a real problem with vasoline, they would be banning it all together. They obviously do not.
Avoided once again.
And big LOL @ “Dana White said himself”. When did Dana become a credible figure in your eyes? Moreover, who gives a damn what Dana has to say pertaining to the unified rules? Is he on the commission? You’ve been running your mouth about how the UFC had nothing to do with the creation of the rules. So why does it matter what Dana says at all.
Btw Dana also said it’s up to the commission..and according to the rules they did the right thing.
[...] Fightopinion.com informa que el campo de entrenamiento de B.J. Penn ah puesto una severa queja ante la NSAC (Comision atletica de California) en contra de George St. Pierre, su equipo de entrenamiento y el resultado de la pelea de anoche. Los argumentos son que uno de los los coach (cornermans) untaron a este (St.Pierre) pomada entre round y round en la espalda. Esto es claramente visto en los vídeos e imágenes de el evento. [...]
I wrongly picked Penn to win, but this is a non-scandal and a non-issue. One of the few times this site starts to seem a little Sherdog-esque.
GSP’s face was rubbed with vaseline, which was permitted. Unless I’m looking at different footage, his upper body was then rubbed, but not with new dollops of vaseline, merely with the same hands. Why is the assumption that any vaseline remained (or a significant enough amount to alter the fight)? GSP’s face probably put more vaseline on Penn than Phil Nurse’s hands.
It was also done if full view of the commission officials, 16,000 live fans, Dana White, and the 1 million plus PPV viewers. The NSAC intervened and rubbed it off when it appeared that some vaseline may have ended up on GSP’s body.
Penn lost to a bigger, stronger, faster, better fighter.
FF
Ivan Trembow Says:
“lol, Dana White said himself that the cornerman should be banned for life unless it was accidental, so it’s not just me imagining this.”
Ivan, buddy, are you serious? Dana White’s opinion about anything rule-related is obviously useless. He defended roider Sean Sherk like he was his mother.
We’re talking about actual potential punishment here, not the opinion of an indefatigable hothead.
This isnt like loading someone’s gloves or removing padding…that deserves a lifetime ban..and criminal charges. For god’s sake, Gilbert Yvel is the only current MMA fighter I can think of who deserves a lifetime ban and he was just licensed by the CSAC.
You said it as if it was fact that GSP’s trainer could be banned for life. There is no evidence to suggest that any punishment would be that severe.
While watching the fight (before hearing anything about vasoline), I had the thought many, many times that BJ was getting no traction on GSP’s back with his legs. They slipped right off, when it tried to throw is legs up. Now, later in the fight this could happen because of sweat, but it happened too early.
What the vasoline could have done was save GSP from submissions. Yes, BJ was getting beat in all other aspects, but it’s not fair that the submissions were taken away by GSP being more slippery than allowed.
GSP won, but it tarnishes the victory.
That said, if I was BJ, I wouldn’t even want a 3rd match, because even without GSP being slippery, he still got a beating on the feet.
Vaseline should be illegal in MMA, like in Japan.
man, I just watched htat giff and I’m still unconvinced. I know a lot of folks seem to think it is 100% proof of cheating but to ME it looked like he was rubing the temples of GSP, relaxing him. When you put vasalene on you rub it above the eyes and across the face, the trainer just makes little messaging circles around GSPs eyes then kind of presses on his chest and back, another message technique. As far as other fighters bringing it up…what ever som many fighters who loose come up with reasons, let the comish work it out.
ok so my reasoning above looks like a pretty big reach, still I want to hear from the comish before I crucify GSP. For instance was there addition vasalene intoduced or was it just “spill over” from his face?
Penn was never close to a submission. And GSP never looked slippery. He was just the better fighter. Penn couldn’t even prevent guard passes from happening all the time. And the body contact from those positions had nothing to do with the areas in question.
As others have said, vasoline should not be used in MMA. It is unfair to the grapplers, and probably one of the reasons why MMA in Japan can look different.
lol, vaseline doesn’t just wipe off from a towel. Seriously, even if somebody from the commission did wipe it off with a towel, it is far too greasy for it to actually come off. Sure, you’ll get any globs, but if anything you are just spreading it out across the body.
BJ does have a somewhat legitimate claim as after the greasing occurred he could not keep GSP in his guard whatsoever. While GSP’s wrestling is really good and he is incredibly strong, there could be an argument that he was too slippery for Penn to keep a hold of.
This is all completely pathetic. If BJ wants to get thoroughly dominated again then let him go for it. FFS.
Putting vaseline on a fighter’s face, as long as it’s not deemed excessive = legal
Putting vaseline on a fighter’s back = illegal
To anyone who knows so little that they think it’s an attempt to “pick on the UFC” for me to even talk about this, you guys must not have been around for the Slice/Petruzelli scandal. Not that the two are comparable, but that was a Zuffa competitor and I was all over that, writing about it constantly on this very web site’s comments section in terms much more harsh than anything I’ve written about the vaseline.
As for the cornerman’s potential punishment, what I actually said was, “A cornerman could be banned for life.” Key word: COULD. And if you’re going to say that he CAN’T be, then you’re saying that there’s a zero percent chance of that happening.
What I have not said is that I believe the vaseline changed the outcome of the fight. In fact, I have repeatedly said just the opposite, that I believe it did not change the outcome of the fight. But did it happen? From all the video evidence (as previously described in great detail by me and many others), it looks like it did, but I’m not one of the NSAC inspectors who was right there.
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=8101
“It seems that at some point between the first and second rounds, a St. Pierre cornerman allegedly applied Vaseline to St. Pierre’s back, an infraction of the rules.
…
St. Pierre was clearly wiped down with towels in between rounds two and three, and again between rounds three and four, by a commission official.”
This is dumb…all the trainer was doing was an old relaxation technique done by pressing in the right spots on the chest and back, no rubbing on the back was done at all….stop making excuses. Go look it up, I believe its an old chinese or japanese relaxation method…..that is all. He lost to a better fighter, get over it.
“no rubbing on the back was done at all”
People can have differences of opinions about certain things, but then there are just plain old factual errors.
The statement quoted above is a factual error. If you look at the tape in between Rounds 1 and 2, you can see the cornerman rubbing GSP’s back clear as day. There is no doubt or ambiguity about that.
For those of you launching ad hominem attacks against individual commenters or general attacks by calling this “Sherdog-esque,” let’s be very clear here on a few things:
1) A complaint was filed. That is a fact.
2) Dana White did admit that something occurred.
3) Jonathan Snowden and other people at the show saw the incident occur with the NSAC official reprimanding the cornerman.
Whatever side you come on as far as this issue is concerned, at least acknowledge what did take place. You can disagree or agree as to whether or not it had an effect on the fight, but to ignore the story at hand and dismiss it is foolish.
I am disappointed in the tone of some of the commenters here. I had no trouble writing glowing praise for St. Pierre after the fight (as seen with my article at MMA Memories), and I had no trouble understanding Penn’s complaint when that news broke as well. It is possible to understand both sides of an issue and not flame away at others.
You can find BJ Penn’s trainers doing the same thing to him during the Hughes fight in an animated GIF on the web. Happens all the time in MMA.
The question is:
Was the cornerman simply careless or was he trying to give GSP an advantage?
That is what needs to be determined.
Reading online, there is a portion that seems to think that every second he rubbed GSP, he was applying vasoline to GSP’s body. I have read some reports that the guy kept doing it after being yelled at.
I have some questions and honestly want to hear what folks think:
If enough Vasoine was applied to GSP’s body to give him an advantage, would the vasoline not spread to Penn as well? If so, wouldn’t it make it harder for GSP to take Penn down, or hold him in place?
Is the allegation that it happened once? Or that the cornerman did it repeatedly?
Is it that they chewed him out after the first round, then stepped up to towel GSP off later after confiring?
“You can find BJ Penn’s trainers doing the same thing to him during the Hughes fight in an animated GIF on the web. Happens all the time in MMA.”
Steroid use happens all the time in MMA as well. Something happening all the time doesn’t make it right or mean that people shouldn’t be punished when caught.
“Is the allegation that it happened once? Or that the cornerman did it repeatedly?”
I don’t know what the allegation from the Penn camp is, I only know what the video evidence conclusively shows if you look at the tape.
And that is:
Before Round 2: GSP’s cornerman rubbing GSP’s back immediately after he was just rubbing GSP’s face with vaseline
Before Round 3: An NSAC inspector being thrown a towel at the last second and giving GSP a very brief rub on the back in the seconds immediately before the start of Round 3
Before Round 4: GSP’s back getting a much more thorough rubdown with towels from both his cornerman and from NSAC inspectors
As I said near the beginning of this thread, the director kept cutting away, and I wish they would have aired the full extent of what actually happened, whatever that may or may not have been. How much vaseline was applied, who applied it, what the commission did, etc.
They have cameras in both corners in between every round, but they decided not to show the incident(s) during the fight or after the fight on the PPV broadcast.
Ok, it is being said it happened just between rounds one and two.
That is the problem at hand.
Nobody, outside of net folk, are suggesting that it happened any other time.
Regarding what we saw:
I don’t think anyone knew what was going on. It did not occur to them to show it.
Where there is too much vasoline on a fighters face, it is wiped off.
Sometimes they show it being wiped off and sometimes they don’t.
Correction: The SAC is saying it happened between round one and two.
Apparently Rudy V is saying “For their camp to be busted doing something bad like that, to be busted doing it and then to keep doing it after the referee had warned them.”
I wish he would have said when else it happened. He is accusing them of doing it again. When?
Another interesting bit:
“His Penn’s) legs slid right off because of the grease on his head and back”
So then if the vasoline had only been applied to the head, which is legal, it still would have caused a problem?
BJ was never close to a submission, but he also couldn’t hold George in a rubber guard or high guard without his leg slipping down. Total BS that seperatist is obviously a cheater and needs to get Serra’d again soon hopefully by Thiago. And this is coming from a western Canadian. GSP is a cheater and quitter, and will be forced to tap once again after Alves is through.
Zach,
I wrote that this Sherdog-esque. By that I meant this “controversy” is much ado about nothing. I stand by that assessment.
Reporting the facts is journalism; speculating about this being as important as flawed steroid testing is an opinion — one with which I vigorously disagree. I did not mean to suggest you should not have reported BJ’s complaint, the NSAC intervention, or Dana White’s comments. Those are facts.
But I have seen no evidence Phil Nurse’s use of the same hands that applied some undetermined amount of Vaseline to GSP’s face somehow resulted in a fight-altering amount of Vaseline being applied to GSP’s back in the first instance, or that the NSAC’s towel intervention was insufficient to resolve any problem. Accordingly, I think BJ’s complaint has no merit and that there is no real controversy. That’s my opinion. It’s not an inappropriate “attack.”
FF
I really have to say I am amazed that anyone is actually taking this seriously, it sounds even more ridiculous after a good night’s sleep than it did even yesterday.
Watching the fight again it’s even more obvious at the complete and total domination and for anyone to claim otherwise. Makes me think that they are either delusional or lost a ton of money betting on BJ.
This really is the biggest non-issue i’ve ever heard of coming off a huge one sided beating. I hope that the NSAC sometime this week smacks this down hard because BJ needs another loss are this pathetic move.
“Watching the fight again it’s even more obvious at the complete and total domination and for anyone to claim otherwise. Makes me think that they are either delusional or lost a ton of money betting on BJ.”
I think you are discussing a completely different issue here. Did GSP have complete and total domination over Penn? I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who has said otherwise. I don’t think anyone is questioning that.
Even on the issue of, “Would St. Pierre have won anyway?” I have said that I think he would have won anyway, and I’d guess that about 99% of the comments that I’ve read online would agree with that.
Again, that has nothing to do with whether or not something improper happened. That is a completely different question, one to which none of us know the answer for sure, but it would certainly seem to be greater than a 0% or 1% chance.
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Okay, after reading the article by Steve Cofield of all people, we know have confirmation that there were vaseline-rubbing incidents on two separate occasions.
One of them was after Round 1, and one of them was after Round 2.
After Round 1: As I previously said, anyone who looks at the tape can see video evidence of it, and someone put it up on YouTube now as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKuJSQJOiwM
After Round 2: This one did not air on the PPV, but it is confirmed because Keith Kizer told Steve Cofield that he saw it:
“”The Commission” was actually NSAC executive director Keith Kizer. He bolted into the cage when he saw Nurse doing the same thing between the second and third rounds. Cage Writer spoke with Kizer after the fight and he was still steaming, saying that the rubbing of the back with Vaseline was completely inappropriate. But he was unsure if it had been done between the first and second.”
While Kizer was unsure if it also happened between the first and second rounds, that’s probably because as of shortly after the fight he wouldn’t have had time yet to watch the footage. Anyone who taped the event or who can click on YouTube can see that it did happen between Rounds 1 and 2 as well.
MAn, I still say it looked like a standard issue relaxation methods used by body workers and sports trainers the world over. The rubbing of his back and chest looked like he was centering GSP, but whatever. I doubt it was an intentional attempt at subtle cheating.
If the vaseline didn’t affect the outcome then why is this worth spending a full day talking about?.
To me you can’t have it both ways either you think GSP cheated and the fight should be ruled a no contest or GSP didn’t cheat and BJ is grasping at straws because he’s a sore loser.
Again what is the argument here from the Penn side? he was completely and utterly dominated from start to finish. To claim that some vaseline on the back of GSP affected the outcome is ridiculous specially after a second viewing. The NSAC needs to come out and end this bs because it’s gotten way too much merit when it deserves none.
If Akiyama hadn’t used skin lotion, would he still have beaten Sakuraba at the Osaka Dome? Probably.
The argument isn’t necessarily that St. Pierre isn’t better than Penn — it’s that the usage of the vaseline provided an unfair competitive advantage. It doesn’t mean St. Pierre needed it at all to win, but clearly something did happen. To what extent? Beats me.
Do I think Kizer will punish any parties involved? No. But that’s my personal opinion, and my personal opinion is that he’s more interested in PR than action.
Go back to a few years ago with BALCO and steroid usage. Some great athletes were accused by the Federal Government of using performance-enhancers. It didn’t take away from the fact that they were great athletes, but they got caught trying to gain what was considered to be an unfair competitive advantage. Now, you can certainly argue the issue of ‘intent’ in regards to St. Pierre as to whether or not he understood the nature of the vaseline usage, but to deny that the usage of vaseline in that manner couldn’t provide an unfair competitive advantage is complete intellectual dishonesty.
For the people who think GSP’s corner did something wrong…. What do you think should happen? No contest? Fine? Rematch?
Zach…. The Akiyama incident was completely different. He greased before the fight. He did so on the part of his body that was most vulnerable due to Sakuraba’s low single. And Sakuraba was complaining during the fight.
With GSP…. There is still no proof that any amounts of vasoline were still on his hands. There was no motivation to put it on because GSP won the first round. It was also done in front of cameras, making even the thought of doing it pointless.
This is a non issue that will be a dead story in 2 or 3 more days.
Unless the guy applying vaseline to his face went and washed his hands thoroughly and towelled them off, there was still vaseline on his hands.
I’m waiting for the one day that 45 Huddle will remove the defensive shell to admit once and a while that something “bad” happenend within the 4 walls of Zuffa.
Your wilfully blindness and blatant ignorance of outright concrete facts is hysterical.
Don’t you mean 8 walls of Zuffa?
Hmmmm…. I’ve been vocal about Fitch being on the undercard and Okami’s lack of title shot so far.
This isn’t a Zuffa issue. This is a bunch of BJ fans getting upset because he was beaten down, and now they are looking for any way to find an excuse.
“Unless the guy applying vaseline to his face went and washed his hands thoroughly and towelled them off, there was still vaseline on his hands.”
If this is the case, then vaseline needs to be banned in general. It has already been discussed that the vaseline from the face will get on parts of the body and make the fights more slippery. If anything, that is worse then a cornerman who likely has no globs left on his fingers massaging his fighter between rounds.
I don’t see how this is NOT a big deal. While I don’t think that it changed the outcome of the fight, nor do I think the outcome should be changed to NC, I do think that it should be discussed so that it doesn’t happen again.
Personally, I don’t buy the “it was a mistake” defense. Any idiot with vaseline on his hands KNOWS he has vaseline on his hands.
“Personally, I don’t buy the “it was a mistake” defense. Any idiot with vaseline on his hands KNOWS he has vaseline on his hands.”
EXACTLY!! And that is why I don’t think there was any material vaseline left on his hands by the time he even started to touch the temples.
I saw Kizer run into the cage after the second round. If there was a previous incident, I didn’t see it. Kizer was obviously furious. I’ve never seen anything quite like it.
Here is the post round one “greasing” video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKuJSQJOiwM&eurl=http://www.fightlinker.com/gsp-corner-video-from-the-event.mma
Now — which of you are claiming that this video is evidence of “excessive” (the exact word in the regulations) greasing the rules do not permit? Because it occurred to me that maybe we’re talking about different things…I don’t see this video as evidence of a material rules violation. It’s not clear any vaseline, let alone an excessive amount, made it onto GSP’s back. But maybe there is additional info/footage I’m not privy to.
Also, I don’t think this is a pro-Zuffa/anti-Zuffa issue. Seems to me the UFC is more likely to benefit from controversy here, b/c then they could promote a third fight.
FF
45 is dead-on (post 70). There is nothing to add to that because this should be a non-issue, and the Akiyama situation *is* completely different.
Big Bill Bob, your analysis was incredible. Very mature, and above all, very accurate (insert sarcastic, eye-rolling emoticon here)
Anyone who calls GSP a ’separatist’ is a complete r3tard. Yes, he’s from Quebec. No, not ALL Quebecers are Canadian flag burning maniacs.
It’s like randomly saying someone from Alaska is an unpatriotic successionist.
“It’s like randomly saying someone from Alaska is an unpatriotic successionist.”
We only wish they were.
You guys who are blindly defending GSP are entirely missing the point.
This is not about redoing the fight, or overturning the stoppage or making excuses for BJ’s loss.
This is about expunging the sport of any potential improprieties, regardless of whether it may or may not have had a direct impact on the course of fight (and I think most would agree in this case that it did not alter the outcome).
According to Josh Gross, Penn and co have decided against filing a complaint.
Correction: Penn and co have decided against filing a complaint at this time.
Penn, Serra, Sherk, and Mayhem All Accused GSP of Greasing?
http://www.fightlinker.com/jason-miller-claims-gsp-greased-against-him-too.mma
Post #68 — “If the vaseline didn’t affect the outcome then why is this worth spending a full day talking about?. ”
Using that logic, why does anyone give a damn about Sean Sherk using steroids in the Hermes Franca fight? Sherk would have whooped him with or without the steroids, so why does anyone care if Sean was juicing?
The answer it … because it is illegal. Whether it impacted the fight is not the issue. It is still cheating regardless of the outcome.
St. Pierre and his corner-men should be watched like a hawk during his next fight. And that should include a pre-fight examination for unnatural lubrication of his body. Heck, all the fighter’s out of Jackson’s camp should be subjected to this until it’s been proven they have given up the grease.
For what it’s worth, this was on the Observer web site by Dave Meltzer, notable mostly because it’s one of the only places that Keith Kizer has commented:
“–An update on the Vaseline scandal involving Georges St. Pierre and his corner from Saturday night’s match. As of press time, B.J. Penn’s camp had not filed a complaint with the Nevada State Athletic Commission. According to Keith Kizer, Executive Director of the Nevada State Athletic Commission, what happened was one of the commission inspectors saw Phil Nurse, as he rubbed Vaseline on St. Pierre’s back after the first round, touch his back without wiping the Vaseline off. Several commissioners were aware as the second round went on, and were watching closely after the second round, where they saw a person they identified as Greg Jackson, do the same thing. If was between rounds two and three that the commotion took place with the commission reacting immediately and they wiped off St. Pierre’s back. They also wiped off St. Pierre’s back again after round three. Penn himself told an inspector on his side of the ring after round two that he thought St. Pierre was greased. Kizer said both Lorenzo Fertitta and Dana White after the match and questioned whether Nurse or Jackson should ever be allowed to corner again. White, after the show, said that he thought the guy who did it, without mentioning any names, should never be allowed to corner again. Kizer said it was not gobs of Vaseline on St. Pierre’s back, but the back was touched after the Vaseline was rubbed on his face, and before the hands were wiped clean with a towel.”
Thanks Ivan,
Any news about Sherk, Serra, Mayhem also accusing GSP of greasing in the past?
“what happened was one of the commission inspectors saw Phil Nurse, as he rubbed Vaseline on St. Pierre’s back after the first round, touch his back without wiping the Vaseline off.”
I am guessing this is supposed to read rubbed vaseline on St. Pierre’s back after the firth round, touch his back…otherwise the sentence does not make sense.
The interesting thing about Miller is he reposted an old piece he wrote that talked about an incident, but did not name names.
Unless I have missed it, he has never mentioned GSP by name.
It seems clear he was referring to GSP, but won’t say him by name.
The article said GSP’s neck was greasy.
mattio Says:
“St. Pierre and his corner-men should be watched like a hawk during his next fight.”
Last time I checked, all fighters are watched like hawks… Fighters are checked prior to entering the ring by t a commission official and each fighter and his corner are directly observed by at least one official between each round.
Penn & Co. decide to file complaint
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/mma/02/02/bj.penn.complaint/index.html
If you have ever seen a cornerman spraying a mist on his fighter between rounds, be wary…. it’s often a mixture of water and Johnson’s Baby Oil.
I know of one guy who did this during a UFC fight three and a half years ago (or so). He lost the fight, but I’m absolutely certain that he got sprayed between rounds with this mix.
I guess my point here is that commissions aren’t always on top of these things, just like with Margarito and the handwraps.
“If this is the case, then vaseline needs to be banned in general. It has already been discussed that the vaseline from the face will get on parts of the body and make the fights more slippery. If anything, that is worse then a cornerman who likely has no globs left on his fingers massaging his fighter between rounds.”
Comparing “incidental contact” between fighters and directly “rubbing on/applying” vaseline are so far apart it’s not even funny. The fact that you continue to attempt to forward it as a legitimate argument is idiotic.
“Using that logic, why does anyone give a damn about Sean Sherk using steroids in the Hermes Franca fight? Sherk would have whooped him with or without the steroids, so why does anyone care if Sean was juicing?
The answer it … because it is illegal. Whether it impacted the fight is not the issue. It is still cheating regardless of the outcome.”
Horrible argument, forgetting first off that the case against Sherk was a joke and the CSAC has been exposed because of it. Also forgetting the fact that both Hermes and Sherk tested positive for steroids after the fact you’re argument is simply silly.
Using steroids is illegal and has a track record of getting guys suspended and overturning fights. The idea that some vaseline on GSP’s back equals doing steroids just shows how desperate BJ Penn fans are to grasp at anything to justify his complete destruction by GSP.
While I agree that steroid use and incidental/accidental greasing are not the same at all….in no way was the CSAC “exposed” or Sean Sherk exonerated.
Sean Sherk lost his case with the CSAC….
As far as anyone should be concerned, he is a convicted roider. He hasnt even come close to proving otherwise.
There are plenty of guys out there who never tested positive. Its not that hard.
Another imaginary scandal cooked up by Zach Arnold and Ivan Trembow! Curse you fiends!
The triumph of the Sherk case for his legal team was spreading enough misinformation and getting enough people to actually believe it that many people, still to this day, think he was somehow screwed, either because they don’t know the facts of the case or they only know Sherk’s illogical facts.
As Sherk’s attorney Howard Jacobs learns every time he tries it, it is NOT a valid defense to say that a fighter had a banned substance in their body because it was in a supplement that they took. Even if true (and they didn’t come close to proving that it was true), that would still NOT make him innocent or less deserving of punishment. Fighters are responsible for what they put in their body, as Jacobs finds out every time he tries and fails to successfully use the ole’ standby supplement defense.
Also, Sherk’s argument about the drug testing equipment being contaminated is a joke. It must be a magical coincidence that Sherk’s “A sample” contained the same steroid and the same amoutn of it as his “B sample,” which was tested weeks afer his A sample was tested.
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It is confirmed again by Keith Kizer, not just in the Cofield story but also in MMAWeekly and Sherdog stories, that there were two incidents.
The first one you can see clear as day if you look at the tape between Rounds 1 and 2.
The second time that the cornerman rubbed vaseline on GSP’s back, it was between Rounds 2 and 3, and and this one was not shown during the PPV but Kizer said that this one he witnessed himself with his own eyes.
Here’s more on this “non-story that Zach and I made up” from MMAWeekly, with quotes from the NSAC’s Keith Kizer:
“Watching the pay-per-view, Nurse is clearly seen on camera applying Vaseline to the face of St. Pierre following round one. It is difficult to tell the amount of residual Vaseline on his hands, but he does clearly rub St. Pierre’s shoulders and then reach around to touch his upper back. The extent to which such actions affected the actual in-ring action are unclear, but what is clear is that such action was a violation Nevada’s regulations.
“They didn’t take a big glob and throw it on his back. After putting Vaseline on (St. Pierre’s) face, he put his hands on his body. I don’t know if it was intentional or not, but it was improper,” Kizer continued.
And from the Sherdog article:
Kizer said: “After the second round, we observed Mr. Jackson putting Vaseline on Mr. St. Pierre’s face and then putting his hand on his back.” …
“I told them I was disappointed and that they may have tainted Mr. St. Pierre’s victory…Whether it was intentional or not, I don’t know. It was improper.”
For the boob who said something about a mix of water and baby oil….
News flash**** water and oil don’t mix, and it has a very distinct smell and feel, nothing like vaseline residue.
If that were to happen it would be easily recognized, nevermind that whoever would do that would be at risk also…ever get something like baby oil in your eyes, shit even sweat stings, imagine getting oil in your eyes…
This whole thing is rediculous….its put on their faces at the beginning of the fight by the cutmen, and in between rounds, how is it not bound to get over other things….and sweat itself would deteriorate and dissepate the little residue that is left behind.
Thanks for the link Zach!
“For the boob who said something about a mix of water and baby oil….
News flash**** water and oil don’t mix, and it has a very distinct smell and feel, nothing like vaseline residue.
If that were to happen it would be easily recognized, nevermind that whoever would do that would be at risk also…ever get something like baby oil in your eyes, shit even sweat stings, imagine getting oil in your eyes…”
LOL
I really have to stop coming to this place. In fact, I’m done.
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned regarding this story is the fact that a highly trained athlete like St. Pierre will sweat more, and sweat earlier, than a relatively untrained (cardiovascularly speaking) athlete like Penn. It is a well known fact in the realm of exercise physiology that this occurs, and it is also a well-known fact among fight fans that GSP trains a hell of a lot harder than many of his peers. Also, some people simply sweat more than others. So, in short, St. Pierre’s opponents complain for 3 main reasons. 1: GSP sweats like crazy, starting early in the fight, and so becomes slippery. 2: St. Pierre is so strong and so skilled in submission defense from top position that it would be difficult to control him even without the sweat (or vaseline) factor.
3: These other fighters are simply sore over the fact that GSP makes them look like friggin’ amateurs. Talk about penis-envy. Just my opinion. Peace.