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Is ‘mmalogic’ connected to Zuffa?
By Zach Arnold | January 29, 2009
Update: MMA Junkie and MMA Mania have posted information regarding Tom Atencio denying the reports.
So, Bloody Elbow is pushing a story that Affliction wants to make peace with UFC and that the MMA operations will soon be finished. Naturally, it’s curious that this type of ‘inside’ news would be broken on a blog as opposed to one of the independent sites (Sherdog, MMA Weekly, etc.)
The poster on Bloody Elbow, ‘mmalogic‘, is being pushed as a credible source on past MMA stories. As you will note from comments posted last September on Bloody Elbow, site readers over there started connecting the dots in regards to who the poster is.
What makes this interesting is that by leaking claims that Affliction wants to wave the white flag in terms of no longer competing with Zuffa that it all but eliminates any sort of leverage Atencio might or might not have if he is in fact doing this.
It’s no secret that Zuffa employees read message boards, blogs, etc. What is interesting is whether or not more and more UFC employees will start using blogs to manipulate the message they want the public to hear. The organization already has friendly broadsheet media outlets that aren’t willing to push back against them, and then you add on the generally UFC-safe Yahoo Sports coverage team, and what you end up with is a pretty sophisticated strategy to influence both hardcore and casual MMA fans.
If Zuffa employees are taking a more active role in blogs, then it certainly signals a rise in the way MMA blogs will be used as communication outlets for UFC, WEC, etc. and perhaps astroturfing in the future.
Topics: Affliction, Media, MMA, UFC, Zach Arnold | 105 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
One thing to keep in mind about that $350 million debt is that there were a few primary reasons for it:
1) Consolidate existing debt and/or to finance new projects
2) Finance a dividend to the principals
The Fertittas and White surely took a huge cut of that cash and squirreled it away for good. There’s no imminent reason for them to sell especially since they’re already cashed out what was no doubt quite a bit of equity.
On another note, I just read that some Station Casino’s notes due in 2014 are rumored to be in technical default and are trading as such at a massive discount to par. Station is not in good shape.
I don’t understand what skirrl is talking about with having to pay any of this debt “out of pocket” unless either of the Fertitta’s is holding any of their own companies’ debt.
” mmalogic’s connections with Zuffa have been pretty common knowledge over at BE for a while. And he still posts there.”
Yeah, it was so common knowledge that when he made the post about Affliction MMA’s demise, the vast majority of people were saying, “Cite a source!” and not one person said, “Hey, this guy is probably right because he works for Zuffa.”
Or he could just be a guy in a cubicle at Zuffa posting on a coffee break. You don’t have to work in marketing to post on message boards, and you don’t have to be a genius either (obviously).
Applying Occam’s Razor here, I think JNTJ’s conjecture might be the most likely.
The guy wrote “tailor” as “taylor”! That’s outright hillbilly spelling. More likely an intern or low level staffer who heard some people in the hallway or saw some things while making copies.
If it is a case of astroturfing, it’s a pretty poor implementation of it. Or maybe it is masterful job of blending in. Mmalogic DOES sound like your average retarded Tapout-wearing MMA fan.
Misspelling a few words here and there to make it less blatantly obvious who you work for would not be that difficult and is not far-fetched at all.
“Yeah, it was so common knowledge that when he made the post about Affliction MMA’s demise, the vast majority of people were saying, “Cite a source!” and not one person said, “Hey, this guy is probably right because he works for Zuffa.””
Ok, somewhat common knowledge. Doesn’t change the fact that if mmalogic was actively trying to spread misinformation, it would do him good if the staff and most of the long-term posters didn’t know he was associated with Zuffa.
Your entire premise assumes that Zuffa is both secretly trying to spread misinformation, and to do so hires idiots who don’t know how to cover their tracks. I have to say, any argument that assumes stupidity on the part of the biggest, most powerful MMA entity in the world, is an argument that badly needs reworking.
“Misunderstandings and neglect occasion more mischief in the world than even malice and wickedness. At all events, the two latter are of less frequent occurrence.” — Goethe
He’s probably just some guy. There are plots, but not everything is a conspiracy.
He/they accidentally slipped up in one post last September and then successfully deflected suspicion at the time by using flattery. I don’t see how that makes him/them a bumbling idiot when he/they successfully astroturfed a very popular blog for many months without his/their employer (and thus his/their motives) being widely known. Additionally, there is absolutely nothing to stop him/them from continuing do the same kind of astroturfing under different screen names and/or on different web sites.
And no, it was not “somewhat common knowledge” that he/they work for Zuffa. Just look at that post. There were lots of people who said something in their comments to the extent of, “Who the hell are you? Cite a source!” and there was not one person who said, “This guy knows what he’s talking about because he works for Zuffa.”
““Who the hell are you? Cite a source!” and there was not one person who said, “This guy knows what he’s talking about because he works for Zuffa.””
Yes, because thats proof nobody knew he was associated with Zuffa. The guy REGULARLY talks about making money off of Zuffa and them paying him. I would attribute nobody mentioning it more due to not that many of the long-term posters being around at the time-I was off for about 8 hours and came back to find this uproar already in full bloom.
Doesn’t change the fact it WOULD come out at some point, because the guy DOESN’T TRY TO HIDE IT.
Once again, are you expecting ineptitude from the most powerful, best-run MMA organization in the world?
Just to prove that it was common knowledge: somebody asked about him less than a week ago, and was told that he seems to be a consultant working for Zuffa.
You found one post of somebody “uncovering” the secret and ran with it like it was some huge thing. Its not. The guy does not try to hide it, and a lot of people know.
I suppose it depends on your definition of “common knowledge” then. In any case, I must have missed his Zuffa employment being mentioned when his FanPost was promoted to the main page. I must have missed his Zuffa employment being mentioned when the update to his post was made. If that had been done, then the public would have been able to judge the veracity of mmalogic’s report (or the motives for its release) in that context. Instead, as the responses to his post show, most people had no idea.
You’re changing the goal lines, Ivan. If the issue is that his Zuffa employment was not mentioned, the problem is one of accurate disclosure, not of subtle and evil attempts to manipulate the story on the blogosphere.
I agree that his supposed connections with Zuffa should have been made clear when it was promoted to the front page at BE. But that does not make it some attempt by Zuffa to seed the blosphere, which is the story you’ve been trying to run with this entire thread. The guy does not really do a very good job of hiding his Zuffa connections, if that is indeed the case.
Where have I heard the “changing the goal-posts” argument before? As for your previous claims that mmalogic does talk about working for Zuffa and does not try to hide it, I looked at the very post you were referring to, the one in which one poster on Bloody Elbow speculated that maybe he’s a consultant working for Zuffa. In the comments section of that very post, mmalogic did deny it and wrote, “If Zuffa was paying me for espionage I wouldn’t be wasting my time here.” In that same post, he demonstrates his vast knowledge of astroturfing and spreading information to benefit specific interests, all while denying that he is doing that.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/1/25/735905/day-of-reckoning-draws-13#11743136
” mmalogic’s connections with Zuffa have been pretty common knowledge over at BE for a while. And he still posts there.”
Ivan,
To clarify, the top people at BE know who he is because they all have long discussions praising Zuffa strategies. Subo, Michaelthebox, cyph, TheRealness, mmalogic, etc are all VERY PRO ZUFFA. Anyone who doesn’t praise them in that site are said to anti-zuffa.
^^^
You can add Phildo and Rome as well.
“Where have I heard the “changing the goal-posts” argument before?”
Probably from me, because you do it a lot. You might want to work on that.
Like right now. Now the issue you’re railing on is that mmalogic is astroturfing, while in the exact same post he is honest about the fact that he takes money from Zuffa.
So lets set the boundary lines. Do you, or do you not, claim that mmalogic tries to hide his Zuffa ties?
Joseph: I’m very openly pro-Zuffa, as are the other guys you mention. What, exactly, is your point?
Bumbling low level interns on coffee breaks don’t post steadily and voraciously for one thing (Zuffa) and against another (everyone else).
The guy was in there disseminating, subversively about how a “Zuffa reject dominated Fedor – blah, blah”, in getting KTFO’d in 3 minutes. And then made dozens of posts on how crappy Affliction, etc., etc., etc. The guy is in there, he’s smart and he’s planting all kinds of seeds for ideas, rumours, etc. on the way the UFC wants people to think and be influenced about mma.
I’d accuse 45 Huddle, but he’s so ridiculously biased he’d be a dead giveaway and be fired for trying to do the job.
“The guy was in there disseminating, subversively about how a “Zuffa reject dominated Fedor – blah, blah”, in getting KTFO’d in 3 minutes.”
mmalogic also had a short argument over whether or not Fedor should be considered the greatest fighter of all time. I think we both agreed that he’s far and away the greatest HW of all time, but that there were some issues as to whether or not he should be considered P4P greatest.
Where does “Fedor is the best HW ever” fit into Zuffa’s misinformation scheme?
This debate is so pointless I can’t believe I’m still reading the comments…lol
I enjoy it I guess….
Whatever – I have no qualms whether or not mmalogic is a Zuffa employee or not. If his job is to crush Affliction so be it. If he’s really a Zuffa mole who is astroturfing then I guess he’s about to get fired by Dana for getting ‘exposed’. Somehow I doubt it.
Everyone will have their own opinion at this stage. Some people are massively pro Zuffa (subo – i’m looking at you…) and some are always against (skwirrl!).
However at the end of the day Zuffa is an organisation that is out to make money and dominate the competition. Given the current state of the world, i’d say astroturfing rather on the tame side.
…the more I think about it the more I think BJ Penn will beat GSP…also I want him to win so they can fight again 😛
rainmaker, you are so wrong about EVERYTHING. BJ Penn cannot beat GSP, and will get mauled like a little girl before a bear.
Joseph: I’m very openly pro-Zuffa, as are the other guys you mention. What, exactly, is your point?
My point is that you guys obviously know that mmalogic is zuffa connected because you guys worship mmalogic’s words as a Zuffa insider. Other’s on that site not as much.
I mean, it is pretty obvious to see who is very PRO zuffa in the internet, the likes of Kevin Iole, mmalogic, 45 Huddle, etc.
“while in the exact same post he is honest about the fact that he takes money from Zuffa.”
Please show me where. I have read and re-read that post and don’t see it.
“So lets set the boundary lines. Do you, or do you not, claim that mmalogic tries to hide his Zuffa ties?”
Yes, he generally has tried to hide it. If you’re talking as if he acknowledges working for Zuffa in his posts, you’re not fooling anyone here. I think referring to Zuffa in the third person constantly (ie, what they are doing) without saying that he works for them, except in one post where he slipped up and said “us,” would qualify for that.
Of course, the next step of damage control could very well be for him to admit that he works for Zuffa. I think it’s more likely that they will just start to use other screen names more often instead.
And it doesn’t take a stretch of logic to see that it might help make him seem semi-credible or semi-independent to say that Fedor is the best heavyweight of all time (what semi-credible or semi-independent person would disagree with that), while continuing to push the line that Zuffa started pushing hard shortly after their negotiations to sign Fedor fell apart in late 2007, which is that Fedor is definitely not #1 on the pound-for-pound list because here’s who is.
“Alas, I am restricted to working on my less than “Death Touch” strategies and just shoot the shit on BE to kill time 🙂 ”
Maybe not a smoking gun, but he clearly indicates that he works for Zuffa. Moreover, as I said, that isn’t the only case, and he’s been much, much, much more open about it many times in the past.
“you guys worship mmalogic’s words as a Zuffa insider.”
Do I detect a trace of anti-Zuffa bias? I do! You win the prize, Joseph: you get to worship failing promotions! Come on down and claim your winnings. 🙂
Ivan: Joseph may have a point about the knowledge of mmalogic’s ties being limited to a subset of posters who are less likely to suspect him of a campaign of misinformation. But that still doesn’t make it the right path to take. I’m sure if I were embarking on a campaign of misinformation, I could come up with some cover story that doesn’t involve me being on Zuffa’s payroll. If mmalogic is indeed trying to spread misinformation, he’d doing a damned strange job of it, not really hiding his Zuffa ties and spending half a year or so passing on accurate inside info while waiting for a chance to hit Affliction where it hurts.
So once again, it comes down to Zuffa hiring a misinformation poster that doesn’t do his job very well. I don’t buy it. The online blogosphere is small enough that, if Zuffa really wanted to, they could drown out the message boards with pro-Zuffa propaganda.
“To clarify, the top people at BE know who he is because they all have long discussions praising Zuffa strategies. Subo, Michaelthebox, cyph, TheRealness, mmalogic, etc are all VERY PRO ZUFFA. Anyone who doesn’t praise them in that site are said to anti-zuffa.”
I can verify this.
“Of course, the next step of damage control could very well be for him to admit that he works for Zuffa. I think it’s more likely that they will just start to use other screen names more often instead.”
Since I don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement about this, it should be interesting to see what he actually does.
“I can verify this.”
The anti-Zuffa posters must maintain their own party line, after all. Keep it up!
lol, that quite doesn’t “clearly indicate that he works for Zuffa.” and if he’s “been much, much, much more open about it many times in the past” then please show me where.
I’m not being sarcastic. If he has been open about it (albeit in a few of his posts out of hundreds), then I would want to know and would want to see it.
The argument that a Zuffa astroturfer could do so much more damage if they really wanted to is an argument that doesn’t prove anything one way or the other. You’re just repeating a variation of the argument that “mmalogic” made in the post that I previously linked to. (http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/1/25/735905/day-of-reckoning-draws-13#11743136)
To Michael or anyone else who thinks that “mmalogic” is more of a bumbling idiot than someone with sophisticated knowledge of exactly how it works to astroturf or spread information to suit a particular interest, just look at his own words in the post where he’s denying that he works for Zuffa (the URL is in my previous post in this thread):
“Affliction is in about 4 major outlets if I remember correctly.
Let’s take Nordstrom’s…
I would have over 200,000 emails sent to their boxes complaining about affliction (todd beard provides enough ammo, but even if he didn’t there are multitude of ways to set this up)
Now you’re probably asking how would 200,000 emails be possible. well Im sure you get spam so I dont need to go into the technology in setting up millions of email accounts with faux names to email out of.
But how do you send out 200,000 plus UNIQUE emails so it looks real…
Getting 200,000 plus emails written Individually is not cost effective.
I have technology that will take an article of say 300 words. All you do is rewrite each sentence with 2 or 3 different variations.
Then take individual words and input possible replacements so now some words have a few variations as well.
Now the amount of unique variations of the 300 word article will number around 10,000 plus.
So you repeat this about 20 times which is easily done.
To get a better understanding of how this works look at passwords… take a 5 digit password – how many variations can you make of that? This works the same way.
I first developed this technology to beat google’s algorithm when they instituted penalties on duplicate content (they don’t rank duplicate content as high in the search engine results)
OK so now just an email campaign is not good enough as that’s not natural… so I would commission one of my printers to print out letters (about 100,000 or so)
Using the same technology whip out 100,000 unique complaint letters. (if you’ve seen some of the more sophisticated junk mail even hand written notes can be simulated so I would use a mixture of printed, typed, etc.. sent out to different key branches).
I’m an over achiever so I would also have a call center I work with in panama use their females to start calling up individual stores with sample verbal scripts of the complaints.
Also submit a few press releases like one from “the assocation of Evangelical mothers” threatening to protest and boycott nordstroms if affliction is not dropped (yeah these associations aren’t real but that’s not a problem)
You see where this is going 🙂
Just rinse and repeat with the other few chains – changing things based on the demographics the outlet serves and Affliction is done… no need to counter program or nothing.
The complaints are simple… something affliction did which I don’t like, I am offended by or is against my religion and although I like shopping at nordstroms (or wherever) I can not continue to shop their in good conscious because of this… yada, yada, yada.”
“Since I don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement about this, it should be interesting to see what he actually does.”
We’ll see if he admits to working for Zuffa, but we’re not going to see if he simply starts using other screen names more often. It’s not like he’s going to announce on other screen names, “Hi everyone, this is mmalogic from Zuffa posting under a different screen name!”
Ivan, I’m really not interested in tracking down all his posts over the past six months to point out where he’s been open about it in the past. We can agree to disagree, because this should largely be cleared up over the next couple weeks anyway. I’m content to wait, see if I’m right or wrong.
“We’ll see if he admits to working for Zuffa, but we’re not going to see if he simply starts using other screen names more often.”
If you’re right about the whole surfboarding or whatever its called, he’ll stop posting much or at all with that sn, because it will be compromised. If you’re wrong, he doesn’t give a shit who knows and he’ll keep posting with it just as much as he always has.
how the hell did I get surfboarding from astroturfing?
From what I’ve seen, mmalogic has never been “open” about being a Zuffa astroturfer. I knew he was a fixer of some kind, but based on my own deductions.
Keep it up, smoogy. You can bring down the evil Zuffa empire!
Michael— You were the one who said he had been open about working for Zuffa many, many, many times. In the first and only example you cited of that, I didn’t see him being open about it at all, so that’s why I asked for other examples.
In any case, unless mmalogic is going to admit to working for Zuffa, mmalogic is not just going to scatter like a cockroach with light shined on it. Doing that would just be exposing what he has been doing for the past X number of months on Bloody Elbow. I’d imagine that he will still post under the mmalogic screen name sometimes in order to avoid this perception, but like I said he’ll likely be posting under other screen names much more often.
On a related note, let’s count the factual errors!
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_ylt=Ahl4sXjnkkKNK73BVlV8uJU9Eo14?slug=ki-ufcbiz-013009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
“The replay of UFC 91 on Spike TV on Saturday set a record for the largest audience ever for a non-live show on the network…”
Numerous pre-taped episodes of WWE Raw averaged more than 2.3 million viewers.
“… when more than 3.3 million people tuned in.”
The show drew an average of 2.3 million viewers. 3.3 million was the number of viewers for a one-minute period at the peak of the Lesnar-Couture viewership. When it says in the next paragraph that Mosley vs. Margarito drew 1.8 million viewers (which it drew on a network this is only in like 30 million homes), I’m sure that is the average viewership, not the peak for one individual minute.
“The UFC generated more than $300 million in pay-per-view revenue in 2008, surpassing boxing and the WWE for the second consecutive year.”
Boxing beat the UFC in PPV revenue in 2007. It wouldn’t have if not for the monster buyrate of De la Hoya vs. Mayweather, but it did.
That is three factual errors in the first seven sentences.
Get a life, guys! This site is really going down the crapper lately. Sherdog 2.0.
Well, that settles it then. You win the debate with that post.
Maybe mmalogic is a double agent and he really is working for Affliction. This whole thing was thought up to get Affliction onto the front page of several MMA blogs and to somehow make people think UFC is evil.
“On a related note, let’s count the factual errors!
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_ylt=Ahl4sXjnkkKNK73BVlV8uJU9Eo14?slug=ki-ufcbiz-013009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns”
Ouch Ivan,
Go easy on the guy.
Kevin Iole is a very respected and accomplished ….. shoot, I couldn’t even finish the sentence.
Grape Knee High will never see this because I’m replying too late.
The 500 hundred million in loans that Station took out to build their new North Vegas casino are completely seperate from the rest of their debt. I don’t remember where I read it as after the Station news came out I went on a net rampage digging up as much dirt as possible on it. Anyways the terms of that loan may actually force the owners of Station to pony up cash, (not harsh words or more credit or equity or some slick refinancing job), so as not to default on that completely separate loan.
“Maybe mmalogic is a double agent and he really is working for Affliction. This whole thing was thought up to get Affliction onto the front page of several MMA blogs and to somehow make people think UFC is evil.”
I’m not sure if you are being sarcastic. But if you are being sarcastic, it would appear to be a similar argument to some previous posts suggesting that it’s just too complicated or conspiratorial for a major corporation to do this. In fact, it’s not. Lots of companies have been caught doing it and it’s not that difficult for them to get away with it most of the time.
Also its clear MMAlogic works for ZUFFA. He’s got scheduled pool cleanings for Joe Silva and Dana White today at 6:30 and 7:00 PM
The owners of ZUFFA had their family fortune made in a business where people get dumped into acid or ground into dog food. You really think hiring 4 or 5 guys to push their agenda is outside their morals? LMAO
skwirrl, you sure do talk a lot like Todd Beard. What’s up with that?
JOSEPH: are you or are you not the same joseph who actually wrote a “fluff” piece about Gary Shaw a few weeks before “standgate”.trying(and i use that term loosely) to point out several good points on that scumbag. and you wonder why you are seen as anti-zuffa. iv’e seen you on several sites like bloody elbow,mmamania,fightlinker.i know it’s you, b/c you say the same old things over and over and you always bag on the ufc and the wec. so why would it bother you if someone deems you as anti-zuffa, when you clearly are. at least SKWIRRL admits to it, even though his reasoning is very shallow. i don’t see why you guys spend so much time hating, it seems like a waste of energy, and you’re never going to change anything, but then again, i guess without guys like you 2 and several more, there would not be much to debate about on these sites. keep hating, haters. 🙂
There is a post over at fightlinker by a guy called Thomas Gerbilski that claims to provide proof of the situation.
This name is very similar to UFC.com’s main writer Thomas Gerbasi. Are they the same person? If so i think we just found a candidate for MMALOGIC…
That Fightlinker article seems to be a parody piece about the UFC leaking word of Affliction’s demise.