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Mark Davies: If Elite XC was paying for stand-up fights, what is the UFC paying for?
By Zach Arnold | October 24, 2008
By Mark Davies
Dana White exceeded his 2008 hypocrisy quotient when bashing Pro Elite over the pay-to-stand scandal. This is Zuffa calling the kettle black. The UFC has been using a bonus structure to reward fighters for ‘good’ stand-up fighters for years. The only difference is that they do it, in part, by cutting good but boring fighters. Matt Lindland, Ivan Salaverry, and the whole lightweight division after Penn/Uno are all good examples.
To the UFC, and most fans, exciting equals lousy kickboxing and that’s what Zuffa pays for. Assuming we take the UFC’s business practices at face value, it’s fair to say the UFC financially rewards fighters who are willing to stand and trade even if it impedes their chances of winning. Even when they possess only marginal skills in any or all areas. Chris Leben just main-evented for goodness sake. The market leader also financially punishes fighters who insist on grinding out dull decisions by making them scrape out a living in the minor promotions and Japan. That’s why Jorge Rivera has a place in the UFC and Matt Lindland does not.
There is a minor technical difference in this method of paying fighters to stand but there is no real difference between what Pro Elite was accused of doing and what the UFC has been doing for years. Why do so many fighters insist on standing when it’s clear that it doesn’t give them the best chance to win? Because they know it gives them the best chance to keep their job.
Chris Lytle choosing to take his chances by standing with Paul Taylor for almost the entire fight despite a massive advantage in ground skills, and the demonstrated ability to take Taylor down, is Exhibit A. Lytle squeaked out a deserved decision but he had a much easier, much more reliable, albeit extra boring, way to win. Given that he was taking heavy damage at the end of the fight and hard punches throughout, why not take Taylor down and hump his leg for a while?
As for Taylor, Joe Rogan told him “I don’t think this loss hurts your career in any way.” Can there be a clearer indication that a promotion values “excitement” over honest competition? How can a loss to a gatekeeper not hurt your UFC career? Because Rogan recognizes the UFC’s priorities. These priorities are fine for an entertainment company, and we are entertained, but Dana White shouldn’t be knocking Elite for going slightly farther in tipping the scales away from honest competition when he, and his employers, started that shift a long time ago.
What Constitutes “Doing Well?”
Job security may not be the only way that Zuffa maintains a steady supply of shoddy kickboxing. The idea that the UFC promotes “excitement” by even more underhanded means, has recently been broached by Dave Meltzer in his Wrestling Observer newsletter. Meltzer states that providing unreported bonuses is a common practice in the UFC and vaguely alluded to the idea that these bonuses were akin to what Pro Elite did. He declined to give further details.
Randy Couture has previously complained about insufficient “shower room” non-contractual bonuses, so the existence of unreported bonuses would hardly be breaking news even if Dana White hadn’t confirmed it last year. Underreported news yes, but not breaking news.
At a press conference last year Dana made the following statement, as reported by Sherdog.com:
“I don’t know if there’s ever been a promoter that gives out more money than what’s on the contract, that’s what we do. A fighter does well, we walk back into the locker room and cut guys checks for more money.”
Whatever the motive, we can treat it as an established fact that the UFC is passing out money over and above what their contracts call for. Zuffa also went to great lengths to declare that this was not done as a way to cheat the IRS.
If we accept Zuffa’s word as it pertains to not cheating the IRS, then how are these bonuses different than a win bonus? The easy answer would be that they are a way to reward a fighter who loses valiantly. That’s the easy answer but the available evidence suggests it’s not the correct one. First of all, Randy’s initial complaint was that he didn’t receive a bonus after beating Gonzaga. If these bonuses were only for losing fighters, why would Couture expect one after a win?
Couture also stated that he received an unreported bonus after the third Liddell fight. Lasting 90 seconds with Chuck Liddell into the second round would be “doing well” for a Cage Rage middleweight, but to reward Couture for that performance is to make a mockery of the above-proposed rationale for these bonuses.
“Doing well” is clearly a euphemism for “if we want to give you the money.” Couture referred to a $500,000 bonus for the Sylvia fight. That means the shower-room bonus was a quarter of Randy’s income from that fight. That kind of percentage means that fighters will be working very hard to please Zuffa, excuse me, that should read “to do well.”
Not counting tax reasons, there are four possible explanations for why the UFC pays these shower-room bonuses.
The first is altruism. That is what Zuffa would have you believe but it doesn’t pass the laugh test. The second is to build goodwill with their fighters that will pay off later in contract negotiations. This is a slight possibility but the UFC’s reputation for playing contractual hardball doesn’t bear it out. That and the fact that the UFC has enjoyed a near monopoly for almost a decade, makes explanation number two less than credible.
The third and fourth possible reasons are much more likely. The only reason to pay anyone money is to get them to do what you want. The UFC already has win, knockout, submission, and PPV buyrate bonuses. What else do they need to incentivize? What other behavior are they trying to promote? A propensity to spend more time than strategically necessary standing up and engaging? A willingness to go down in flames rather than win in a snoozer? Fighters know what kind of fights the UFC wants. It’s no mystery when Chris Leben main-events multiple shows and Lyoto Machida couldn’t even sniff a main event when he was fighting the third-most-popular fighter in UFC history.
The fourth possible reason to pay these bonuses is to manipulate the pay scale. It is a fundamental tenet of economics that if employees know what each other are making, then an employer almost always ends up paying more. It’s no coincidence that transparency in pay packets is necessary for collective bargaining. This seems the most likely explanation since Couture referred to bonuses that had been promised him pre-fight but the pay to stand explanation is also fairly convincing. Whatever their reasoning is, Zuffa is hardly in a position to get on their high horse with regards to what other promoters are paying their fighters to do.
Topics: Media, MMA, Pro Elite, UFC | 44 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
The UFC is the most ground fighter friendly organization in the world. They are not perfect, but should not be taking the majority of the complaints on this issue.
Sean Sherk is boring, and was given the fast track to a title shot. He was in Pride Bushido, and was dropped by the company because he was boring.
Lyoto Machida is boring, but is being given a large push.
Yushin Okami was completely ignored by his home country due to his fighting style, and he was given a solid place on the roster. He was in Pride Bushido, and despite a victory, was not given a second fight.
Heck, EliteXC it seemed only put strikers on their cards.
The UFC puts guys like Gray Maynard, Keith Jardine, Ricardo Almeida, Jeremy Horn, Demian Maia, Josh Koscheck (before he got exiting), Jon Fitch, and a host of others on their cards. These guys don’t sell a lot of tickets, and overall are not exiciting to the casual fans.
I understand that fighters who are exciting can be given better treatment, but that sells tickets. But to complain about Zuffa in this case, is really far reaching and unrealistic. Without Zuffa, this sport would still be in a cave, or in primetime looking like a freakshow with almost no grappling.
I don’t agree with every thing 45 said but he does have a point. If I’m not mistaken the UFC is curently running a TV show to promote a title fight between … wait for it… two ground fighters. And the winner? He gets to fight…yup a ground fighter, albeit one with a background in western style ground fighting. So while I agree that there is to much craptastic kickboxing in MMA I would not go so far as to say UFC is the problem.
I’ve a question I wondered about for awhile. If casual MMA fans want sloppy kickboxing with 4 oz MMA gloves, then why hasn’t kickboxing itself caught on in America? You would think that K-1 would be huge over here considering how much mainstream MMA fans prefer standup to the ground game.
A few more points:
1. I was one of the most vocal people about the demise of the UFC Lightweight Division back in the day. However, the reasoning was not because of the level of excitement. It was because they had limited fight slots on PPV, so they could only afford to concentrate on fewer weight classes. After Penn/Uno 2 went to a draw, it gave them a perfect opportunity to put it on hold. But The Fertitta’s held true to their words, and brought back the division when they had more TV Time.
2. Joe Rogan talking about a fighter being exciting and it not hurting his career is not purely a UFC thing. Even HBO Commentators talk about this. If a boxer is ultra boring, they will make comments that his style won’t sell tickets. That is the REALITY of the fight game. I love the sport being pure as possible, but that is impossible to avoid.
3. The UFC has given Fight of the Night’s to ground fights. It isn’t just about being a slugfest. It is about two fighters going all out and not fighting like Antonio McKee. I believe Tavares/Black was fight of the night, and the majority of that fight was spend on the ground. And the UFC has recently showcased a few fights on their website for free, and these were not purely stand-up battles. They contained a lot of grappling as well.
4. You asked: “If we accept Zuffa’s word as it pertains to not cheating the IRS, then how are these bonuses different than a win bonus?” The major difference is that these are given to fighters who might make $10,000 a fight. But based on their performance, Zuffa felt that they earned more then that for the day. I can’t think of many employers who would pay somebody MORE for a good job, but somehow you are making it out to be something horrible.
The Fertitta’s and Dana White understand ground fighting. They understand striking. They allow BOTH styles to prosper within their organization. These bonuses have ALMOST NOTHING to do with EliteXC.
EliteXC paid a guy to only stand-up. They set up rules to not have certain techniques occur in a fight. This is 100% corrupt.
The UFC paying fighters, no matter what their style, for putting on good performances, is nothing short of charity. They don’t have to do it, but they still do because they are fans of the sport.
If nothing else, EliteXC’s demise should teach us to be HAPPY for what Zuffa does for this sport. Not accusations and negatives articles such as this.
If I ran an org, I would never bribe a fighter not to take it the ground. Even if a featured fighter I had on my roster stood a very good chance of losing if I didn’t.
But I also would be very selective in who I want fighting for me. If all you want to do is lie on top of your opponent and do a whole lot of nothing for three rounds, you would have to find another org to pull that shit in, because I would not bring you back. (And the same would go for strikers who want to circle and back-pedal more then they want to kick and punch).
Watching a fighter take advantage of the fact that the fight is going to be competed in a finite amount of time is aggravating as all hell. It’s something that should have been eradicated from the sport the second somebody tried it.
“I’ve a question I wondered about for awhile. If casual MMA fans want sloppy kickboxing with 4 oz MMA gloves, then why hasn’t kickboxing itself caught on in America? You would think that K-1 would be huge over here considering how much mainstream MMA fans prefer standup to the ground game.”
Even if ground fighting is somewhat boring, at the end of the day, even the casual fans want to see what happens when two athletes compete in something as close to a street fight as possible. With kickboxing and boxing, there is always the “what if” the fight went to the ground. MMA takes away basically of the “what if’s”. Hence why it is extremely populr and kickboxing has never been in this country.
The UFC love is strong with you guys.
The author said absolutely nothing that wasn’t correct.
“The author said absolutely nothing that wasn’t correct.”
The UFC cut the Lightweight Division after Thomson/Edwards. That is mistake one of many.
He also downplays the fact that Zuffa might be altrustic in their intentions. When in fact, without knowing their motivations, his article has absolutely not merit to it. He is basing it on a premise that has no proof or legs, only his only opinion. And yet he is trying to link that in with EliteXC, who actually is 100% corrupt.
That isn’t UFC love…. That is just using your brain to disect a bad editorial.
Since it won’t be covered here, did anyone else see the farce that was the Bute-Andrade fight tonight on ShoBox? Totally biased ref who only seemed to warn Andrade, called a knockdown on Andrade when it was a trip and then purposely stopped the count at the end of the 12th round when Bute was clearly out. It was insanity tonight.
I wish that Boxing was covered here. It is FIGHT opinion, not MMA Opinion. Zach would have a lot more material to work with if he was posting about both sports. As it stands there seems to be lulls on slow MMA newsdays.
Rp
Matt Hughes, Tito Ortiz, Randy Couture, what do these 3 men have in common all three are wrestlers all 3 are former champions and all 3 are millionaires. Claiming that the UFC has a preference for stand up fighters is silly and simply lacks common sense. If the UFC only wanted fighters who stand and bang people wouldn’t be on the internet complaining about how UFC rules favor wrestlers and guys like Sherk are boring. If the UFC wasn’t for the best fighters putting on exciting fights regardless of how they happened then why are guys like Karo and Guida favorites of Dana’s and have received multiple bonuses?. Also let’s not let facts get in the way of a nice story btw Chuck vs. Couture 3 ended in the second round genius. Maybe this guy has a hard on for the UFC or he’s just bored and decided to write something shocking I really don’t know or care. But if your gonna make some of these accusations you better have facts and have done your homework, this guy has done neither and put out a laughable piece equal to a Sherdog poster.
Is Matt Lindland not in the UFC because he’s a “boring ground fighter” or because he’s guy that Dana seems to have a real grudge against? Did Machida not headline with Tito because Machida is “boring” or because it was Tito’s last fight and Dana was trying to bury him as much as possible? Chris Lytle is a professional boxer who decided to box with the guy. He also won submission of the night just last year at UFC 73 so I have to wonder if it’s just him wanting to stand now? Did Rogan say what he said to Paul Taylor because the fight was exciting or because the fight was very very close? Seems like a lot of speculation and assumption here when the UFC really does appear to be the most ground friendly organization out there, heck how many amateur wrestlers end up with belts in the UFC?
I did agree with the last paragraph and manipulating the pay scale by keeping pay secret, that was a good point. That helps them a lot when negotiating contracts and it also helps in making competing organizations have to guess when making offers to fighters. It’s great that the fighters are making more money that people thought they were but secret hidden bonuses seems like a pretty fishy way of doing business.
45 you seem to be forgetting that Sean Sherk was cut from the UFC after a very creditable performance against then champ Matt Hughes. Why? He was boring. Jeremy Horn was also blackballed once upon a time.
The biggest reason why the UFC now has so many grapplers is because they have so many fighters.
The UFC does have some great groundfighters but very few boring ones. You will also note how much time all of these “groundfighters” spend on their feet. Some of that is due to the increase in takedown defense but a lot of it isn’t.
I don’t contend that every promotion doesn’t do this. What I am complaining about is the UFC’s hypocrisy.
Lyoto is getting a push but its later and smaller than he deserves. Lyoto took that push by refusing to lose. It took much longer than it should have for the promotion to get behind him. The same with Jon Fitch.
If you look at the best fighters not currently in the UFC, by division they are:
HW-Fedor (the UFC has made efforts to sign)
LHW – Arona
MW – Lindland
WW – Jake Shields
LW – too hard to say, maybe Melendez or Gomi.
Notice that three of the four guys that the UFC did not aggressively pursue all fight similar, methodical, ground-based styles. Is that a coincidence?
EJ that was my mistake about Liddell/Couture 3. I couldn’t remember which fight was a first round KO and when I looked it up and saw 90 seconds I didn’t notice it was the second round.
Karo and Guida are both exciting groundfighters rather than traditional lay and pray wrestlers. There is a big difference in style between someone like Karo and someone like Ricardo Arona. Karo takes stupid chances and thats the reason for many of his losses.
Tito became a star for something that had nothing to do with his fighting style. Any promotion would push him based on personality and the UFC has frequently pushed him much further down on the card than he belongs.
Coture is a wrestler but a lot of his reputation and fame is based on standing (Vitor 1, knocking out Chuck)
Hughes is the only one of the three that really supports your point. The UFC has 100s of fighters on their roster. Some are bound to be groundfighters, but why are so many lousy stand up fighters and why do fighters like Hardonk, Sakara, Eddie Sanchez, keep finding their way onto cards
The UFC, and any organization, is happy to have groundfighters, as long as they fight like Karo or Tyson Griffin, or Ninja. The problem is that that isn’t always the style most conducive to winning.
Sherk wasn’t cut because he was boring. He was cut because once he lost, they didn’t have room to build guys back up. That’s how it went back during that time period. One loss could mean a guy is out. If they really didn’t like his style, he would have never been given a title shot against Florian.
The reason why they don’t have many boring grapplers anymore is because they just don’t exist as much on a high level. All fighters are so well rounded (because they have to be), that they can strike or grapple at most levels. The pure grapplers get beat up and sent home because they aren’t good enough. If anything, that is just a change in the sport. The only boring grapplers left I can think of are Vlady Matyushenko and Antonio McKee. But they are a rare breed.
Ricardo Arona – Not one organization has pursued him. Heck, is he even fighting anymore? Not to mention that he was always one piss test away from being a liability.
Matt Lindland isn’t the Top Middleweight outside of the UFC. Robbie Lawler is. And the UFC let him go. The UFC also didn’t heavily try to re-sign Nick Diaz. They let go “Hands of Steel” Scott Smith. They told striker Benji Radach that he needed another win outside of the UFC. Instead, they picked up a guy who grapples more in Matt Horwich.
The Matt Lindland thing seems to be personal, and not because of his style.
As for Jake Shields. He was given a UFC offer before he signed with EliteXC. He turned it down.
Yes, the UFC will keep around certain fighters who will never be champions but are exciting. That’s just the nature of the business. But they have more then enough boring fighters in their organization. Guys who might have to win 1 or 2 more fights to get a title shot, but they are still given good treatment.
Trying to connect the dots between the UFC somehow favoring strikers and the corrupt practices of EliteXC is just grasping at straws.
Did Sherk leave the UFC after Hughes because he was boring, or because of management politics after he left Monte Cox?
We do remember that as soon as he re-signed with Cox, he was back in the UFC.
also the first paragraph should read Penn/Uno not Penn/Pulver. That was sloppy proofreading by me
How hard is it to understand that the IRS and the SAC have no connection?
What is disclosed to the SAC is totally different that what is reported to the IRS.
The contract dispute with Couture showed that Couture made far more than was repoted by the SACs. Does anyone doubt that was all reported to the IRS?
Is there any MMA company that reports any more than they have to? Pride? Elite? Strikeforce? Affliction?
We know that Fedor made more than his reported pay for the Affliction.
Mark,
Sherk was cut because his agent held up the UFC for more money after the Hughes bout was announced. It had NOTHIING to do with his performance.
Lindland? He lost his spot in large part because he has a rep as being an ASS. He bitched on mic before, during and after UFC events. Anyone remember Matt Hughes responding in the middle of an event?
Lindland was seen as not being worth the hassle.
Speaking of Sherk, Dana was very quick to praise Sherk and Franca for their ground was. He praised both guys for their skills.
Hughes, Sherk, Guida, Maynard, Evans, Marquardt, Lister, Okami, Carwin, Edgar, Koscheck, Fitch, Sanchez…how many ground fighters should I list?
You can complain that some fighters should be pushed hard, but part of it is indeed popularity. I don’t think anyone will deny that Machida is ready for a title shot, but his inability to get over with the crowd does a role.
I don’t like to bash writers, but this article bears little resemblance to reality.
45 Sherk was cut because he was boring. Hughes was a failure at headlining PPVs and the UFC didn’t want a mini-Hughes on their hands.
Don’t pretend the UFC is worried about signing ex-Pride fighters who likely used steroids. The whole Chute Boxe team is sporting very different physiques nowadays. They didn’t pick up Arona because his style is boring.
Lindland is an elite fighter, Robbie is a very good brawler. Can you picture Robbie holding his own with Rampage?
The reason why the sport doesn’t have many boring fighters anymore is that they know they can’t get paid so they change their style. Unless you are a proven elite level fighter, you can’t take the chance of putting on boring fights.
Look at Brock Lesnar. He doesn’t have to worry about marketability because of his WWE time. He has around two years of MMA training and he seems to be a pure lay and pray fighter. He beat a top 15 HW with nothing but one right hand and a whole bunch of amateur wrestling. If a lay and pray fighter can do so well then why don’t we see dozens of NCAA champs being signed and developed by the UFC, when its clear that amateur wrestling is the best base style?
BTW the reason the UFC could let Smith go is that they have 12 fighters just like him.
Hey 45, you make some very good points.
But hey, what’s with this “Koschek (before he got exciting)” comment? I’ll grant you the McLovin fight was good and impressive because McLovin is an awesome fighter but what about the Chris Lytle victory? That was agonizing. Kos has a long way to go before he deserves an “exciting” lable.
Obviouly Mark you aren’t reading many MMA MB’s these days, Karo and Clay are usually regarded as boring fighters who always go to decisions. I personally love both of them but many people don’t share my opinions of the guys and would put them in the Lindland/Arona camp.
Tito did become a huge star because of his antics but his style is GNP nothing more. Yet the UFC decided to push him regardless of the fact that his striking sucked for a majority of his career. You can’t cherry pick facts Tito is a wrestler his style is not exciting yet he became huge thanks to Dana.
Couture is also a wrestler with limited striking his style is pretty much the same’s as Tito with better hands. He used to take guys down and GNP their heads in and win belts he became a UFC Legend by doing just that. Btw he didn’t KO Chuck he used his striking to get him open to takedowns and the he GNP him out in their first fight.
Hughes is the third guy on my list because he’s of the same mode, the guy can barely strike even after all these years. He’s a wrestler who has some nice subs but is just like Randy and Tito and he’s also a top star and draw for the UFC with that same style see the pattern?.
The UFC has all sorts of fighters for every exciting striker you can name, I can name you a boring wrestler/grappler. If you have a problem with behind the scenes bonuses then that’s ok, but trying to lump in the UFC with the sham that was Elite is simply wrong and lacking in the facts department.
” If a lay and pray fighter can do so well then why don’t we see dozens of NCAA champs being signed and developed by the UFC, when its clear that amateur wrestling is the best base style? ”
Young wrestling prospects like Shane Carwin, CB Dollaway, Cain Velasquez, Mark Munoz(WEC) or Grey Maynard?
Brock Lesnar didn’t lay and pray he dominated the guy and was constantly landing shots the whole time, the fight was pretty darn brutal. Perhaps the point is that a lay and pray guy can’t do that good against a well rounded fighter and it’s the athleticism and ability to grow in multiple areas that carry these guys to success. This is Mixed Martial Arts after all. Heck Rashad Evans was a amateur wrestling prospect that has grown more rounded over time, do you think that was because he wanted to be more exciting or more successful in his career?
The issue is heavily biased by the UFC 89 card. It had nothing but strikers in the main event, and since it’s so recent it’s the most prominent event in mind.
UFC 90 has only 3 strikers in the main card but 6 ground fighters, and one unknown (I don’t know dos Santos). UFC 91’s two main fights are between ground fighters, and the #3 fight has Maia. Similar to 90, I count a total of 6 ground fighters, 2 strikers and 2 unknowns.
Of couse, most fighters are well-balanced, so I’m referring to their primary strength.
Just for fun, rank the UFC’s top 10 fighters in each division, and keep track of how many you consider a grappler primarily. I’ll skip the breakdown for brevity, but 30 out of 50 fighters I ranked were primarily ground-fighters. The idea that the UFC prefers stand up fighters doesn’t hold much weight.
I’m really pleased to see that this article has already been completely debunked. This sort of bad analysis, with the purpose of painting the UFC with the same ugly brush of EliteXC, does the sport a disservice.
Mark,
I will say this again:
Sherk was cut because of his manager. This is a very well known story.
The UFC announced Sherk/Hughes before Sean had actually signed a new deal. His manager used it to demand a major pay increase, threatening to ruin the ppv by walking if they did not give it to him.
The UFC agreed, but demanded a clause that said Sherk could be cut if he lost.
Sherk’s return to the UFC happened when he signed with Monte Cox. Cox mended the fences and Sherk returned.
This is well-documented.
For the record Rashad Evans is not and never was an amatuer wrestling prospect.
His college record in Div 1 is barely above .500. That would be great for somebody like Kermit Cintron who is top 5 in the world boxing at the deepest weight class and an accomplished high school amatuer wrestler, (his college accomplishments are similar to Rashads also but he quit after his freshman year)… But it definately doesn’t make him a wrestling “prospect.” All props to Rashad for working hard and making a good MMA career out of his base though.
I think a key point you missed is the bonuses. Lytle and Taylor is a prime example. I couldn’t find the exact numbers for this show, but I think those guys could have multiplied their pay times 5 if they won Fight of the Night. That, of course, usually means standing like idiots and windmilling each other for 15 minutes, possibly via mutual agreement. Whatever Seth was paid, I’d bet they didn’t put a x5 on his paycheck.
Zach, I’m sorry, but this is one of the worst articles I’ve ever seen you allowing on your site. The author’s argument against the UFC simply doesn’t hold up.
I gotta say I have to disagree to a point on this week.
To the UFC, standup does not equal exciting.
The UFC has guys they consider “exciting” who are ground fighters just like they have standup fighters. The UFC loves and rewards “excitement” (i.e. anything that will draw and keep a larger audience tuning in to their PPV shows), it doesnt matter if that excitement comes via the standup or the ground to Zuffa.
However, it does matter to the average UFC fan. The average fan doesnt like the ground game and doesnt consider it exciting, and therefore Zuffa naturally seems to promote more standup than ground game since that is what their customer wants.
The problem with article:
#1 author assumes boring fighters = ground fighting.
#2 author assumes cutting fighters for being boring = paying fighters for standing up.
#3 author assumes back room bonus that is reported to IRS = shady
#4 author assumes bonus money = malevolent instead of benevelent
#5 author sees UFC bonus = EliteXC bonus
The author doesn’t see the subtle difference between the two situation. Encouraging an exciting fight is not a moral equivalence of pushing a fight toward kickboxing. Many UFC critics fail to grasp this subtle difference.
If a fighter wants to keep it standing because he believe that is his best chance of being exciting (Lytle) because he is a boxer at heart and not a JJ guy, then that is his choice. His JJ is just not good enough to be exciting or to finish a guy. Now, if Lytle was a JJ specialist and his stand up was weak, and he took the fight standing up, then the author’s argument would have more teeth. Did anyone think that the Bisping fight was more exciting than the Miller fight because it was all boxing? The author would probably think yes. However, he is very wrong. And that is where the entire logic of his argument fails.
A fighter choosing to stand up is not the same as the promoter asking him to stand up via a stand up bonus. One is a decision by the fighter, the other is an explicit push by the promoter. There is a subtle but huge difference.
I came into this discussion too late to sort through it all, but I will just say…
I agree with cyph’s post right above me, 100%. I will add that the author didn’t think through these issues before he put his name to the article and he should have.
Junior dos Santos probably should be counted as a ground fighter, he comes out of Minotauro’s camp (he also trains with Anderson Silva, his pedigree is enviable for any fighter).
The idea that Zuffa is not reporting any payments to fighters to the IRS is ludicrous. Zuffa isn’t into paying more tax than they have to, and that’s exactly what they would be doing by not reporting bonuses as business expenses.
However, the one point that is here that is little understood is the existence of the non-contingent bonuses that are not required to be reported to the commissions.
I’d like to presume that if Nevada (or certainly California) thought there was something fishy about these bonuses, they would require them to be reported, but Nevada at least seems to be quite friendly with Zuffa (and why not? UFC and WEC hold half their events in Nevada and the commission probably collects a percentage of the gate).
I don’t feel like I need to go into a lot of detail to refute the idea that UFC in particular is giving ground fighters the short end of the stick, but I’ll mention the additional example of Frank Mir. He was always known as a ground fighter, he’s clearly amongst the fighters that Zuffa favors by giving him a hosting gig as well as keeping him around while he recovered from his accident. If he wasn’t a ground fighter, he wouldn’t have stood a chance against Lesnar, and instead he was part of what to me was the most memorable fight of the night, and scored himself a $60,000 submission of the night bonus, almost doubling his pay on the night.
Santos is a kickboxing champion.
And a BJJ blackbelt (of course, so does Anderson Silva, and he doesn’t use it much these days).
He has a good chance of being the unknown who makes good tonight.
I have a degree in journalism with a focus in public relations. I was the sports editor for my college newspaper (a small NAIA school) and wrote for a few local publications. Ultimately, I decided to pursue other career options since the world of journalism doesn’t pay much.
I bring up my background because I have always found MMA media to be fascinating. Unlike other sports, the traditional media (for the most part) knows far less about MMA than the fans do. It creates an odd dynamic because a site like Fight Opinion is a far better place to go for MMA news than an ESPN or CNNSI. Although most major sports media outlets have attempted to build up their MMA base, they are still not at the level of independent websites when it comes to MMA information.
The beauty of having your own MMA site is that you can report whatever you want and answer to nobody. Zach can cover something like the PRIDE Yakuza scandal far different than other media outlets because Zach answers to nobody. If he gets information wrong, he just moves on. I am not saying any of Zach’s information is wrong. I am just using this example to prove a point.
I don’t know anything about Mark Davies, but I have a lot of problems with his column. He wrote a strictly opinion piece. He tried to present facts, but did nothing to prove them. It is a thread post that he is trying to pass off as serious journalism.
This bothers me because MMA Junkie took a lot of heat on this website for the way they covered the EliteXC scandal. The guys over there come from a journalism background. They treat their website more like print media than an MMA blog. I completely understand them not going after EliteXC before more facts came out. In journalism, you are taught to report facts and not speculate. MMA Junkie did cover the scandal and reported only facts they could verify. It was textbook journalism. It wasn’t as sensational as blog posts were about the scandal, but that doesn’t seem to be what they are about.
My point is we need strong MMA journalism. The traditional media continues to print ill-informed articles about MMA, while the internet MMA media craves credibility because they have the knowledge base. The only problem is that they will never get credibility if they continue to pass off blog posts like this as serious journalism.
That article is complete junk and has been shut down by many of the posters here already. The author is grasping at thin air here and comes off as a bit of an uneducated tool when it comes to MMA.
“I think a key point you missed is the bonuses. Lytle and Taylor is a prime example. I couldn’t find the exact numbers for this show, but I think those guys could have multiplied their pay times 5 if they won Fight of the Night. That, of course, usually means standing like idiots and windmilling each other for 15 minutes, possibly via mutual agreement. Whatever Seth was paid, I’d bet they didn’t put a x5 on his paycheck.”
Chris Lytle made $14,000 for his loss to Josh Koscheck. Which means he likely made $28,000 for his win at UFC 89. He made $40,000 for Fight of the Night bonus. So the bonus wasn’t even two times his salary.
“For the record Rashad Evans is not and never was an amatuer wrestling prospect.”
No he was never a wrestling standout in college but amatuer wresting is his base and pretty much all he was known for going into TUF.
“That, of course, usually means standing like idiots and windmilling each other for 15 minutes, possibly via mutual agreement.”
At fight night 14 Franca and Edgar got fight of the night and that fight was almost completly on the ground. You don’t have to windmill for 15 minutes to get the bonus you just have to have both guys have really good fights. You think if Lytle had taken Taylor down in the third round and submitted him that fight would of been any less of a fight of the night?
Fight of the Night winners come from guys that are closely matched and both go out and give it their all. Of course it’s not like that bonus is larger than the submission bonus for that matter.
I am surprised that such an illinformed article was even posted here.
Even when I disagree, the articles are usually factual and well-thought out.
Zach,
What happened to your standards?
Re: my post at 33.
Looks like UFC is saying that Junior is a purple belt. Obviously the internet has once again proven it’s hit or miss nature.
Looks like MMA promotions are going stand up…i think it would evolve into a sport called BOXING hahaha.mma hates to admit it.but chuck lidell vs wanderlei was boxing with small gloves..is saw a couple of meaningless kicks in the fight thou(5 percent)
also..when fighters go with theyre hands.joe rogan would tell the public its DIRTY BOXING!!! yeah right….boxing is boring because promoters want a mismatch.but if you put 2 evenly mathced boxers like hagler and hearns or corales and castillo..or a manny pacquia fight..its EXCITING as hell
“also..when fighters go with theyre hands.joe rogan would tell the public its DIRTY BOXING!!!”
I fucking HATE that term! Seriously, whenever some fair-weather MMA fan says that term, a baby gets drowned by its mother (or some other terible tragedy). But seriously that term was invented by (or made popular by) Joe Rogan. If you watch a boxing or kickboxing telecast and the guys are infighting, do the commentators use the term “dirty boxing”? No, they don’t. Know why? Because it’s NOT a real term! What’s dirty about it? Unless there is hair pulling and broken bottles are involved, there is NOTHING dirty about infighting.
I really want to punch Joe Rogan in his cock…
Its called dirty boxing because its not allowed in boxing? You can’t hold your opponent and punch in boxing. e.g Randy Couture’s one hand clinch/uppercut combos.
Lots of UFC fanboys here. To the author: just ignore them. Good article.