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Tuesday evening notes (11/6)
By Zach Arnold | November 6, 2007
Don Frye is no longer a coach in the IFL.
An interview with Bas Rutten.
UFC insists that their UFC 80 event will happen on 1/19.
Tyson Griffin vs. Gleison Tibau coming at UFC 81.
M-1 denies that Fedor will fight on NYE.
An update on Jonathan Goulet.
The IFL drew a 0.4 rating for their Saturday show on MyNetworkTV. Eddie Goldman has some thoughts about the Chicago event. Sam Caplan made an appearance on Fight Network Radio (audio here). During the Caplan interview, John Pollock reported that 200 Canadian viewers watched the IFL Chicago event on Fox Sports World.
Nate Marqardt is stuck with one fight left in UFC and is getting the same treatment as Andrei Arlovski.
Topics: IFL, M-1, Media, MMA, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | 32 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Let’s hope Nate signs…
what a shame – i was really hoping to see Fedor take on Hard Gay on NYE
“Don Frye is no longer a coach in the IFL.”
Was he ever qualified to be a coach? Now, especially, that they are doing camps instead of coaches? I mean, UFC 8 to 25 or so, wrestlers dominated, but it has far evolved since then.
That’s like taking an old school 60-80’s QB in the NFL, who called the plays and ran the game. It just doesn’t happen (Manning aside), nor will it ever again.
I’ve watched 3 shows of the IFL, but how much do the coaches actually play a part of the team? I thought of that as a gimmick more than anything.
Don Frye was the best thing about the IFL. Hopefully someone else picks up his “Dear Don…” column.
I love the “Dear Don”s. Major newspapers should carry that column every week.
We will all miss the “Dear Don”s lol.
My point all along, stated by “The Best In The Business” Big John McCarthy:
“When you come into the UFC the cage is different — it’s bigger and the pace of the fight is different. No matter what anyone says, it is different” – MMA Madness.com (http://mmamadness.com/insight.html?newsitem_id=152).
After one of FO’s faithful commenters brought to my attention that Big JM has many insightful words to say, I took it upon myself to read his interview. He is the #1 authority and I totally agree with his opinion on the difference between the cage and ring. Without a doubt, Dana White has authority to talk badly about PRIDE when “his” fighters, fight in “his” Octagon (®©©), with “his” rules. The whole MMA story makes me sad but I forget about everything when I see the Thank-Goodness promotions like TKO, HFC, EXC, PXC, WEC (Filho domination), and KIMBO baby!
This is the end for the IFL…. This is basically the last straw. Their ratings are in the dump, and even a live show couldn’t bring them up. They won’t be around by the end of 2008.
From what I’ve read, Don Frye will be kept on in some capacity. They’ll keep “Dear Don…”.
200?
How do you determine a number that is so insignificant with any accuracy?
Jeremy, I think that’s the number of people that they counted on digital cable in Canada that watched the show. I’m just guessing though.
Good thought. If the only outlet is digital cable or Echostar or something, maybe they can actually count it.
===
I think Newcastle is a mistake. Too many shows in the UK.
Too many shows in the UK? Disagreed, but quality and frequency of shows, definitely an issue. We should have UFN style shows as opposed to big PPV style events IMO
Fedor VS Pedro Rizzo… Zzzzz
How long will Fedor retain his #1 rankings if he keeps fighting middleweights and has-beens?
M-1 and Fedor is really milking his legacy. Unfortunately for them, it appears Japan is the only place where he still has a legacy.
M-1 so far has one fighter. This is bad news. I predict its demise middle of the year 2008…right after their first event.
Hywel,
I agree with that. With the PPV class events, it’s impossible for the UK shows to reach the same kind of profitability that you have for the US based PPV events right now. You’re either cutting your audience by broadcasting when the west coast is still asleep, or you’re running it on free TV and your advertising revenues combined with the tv deal don’t match up to what you’d have gotten off the PPV.
Either way, a mistake.
So long as he’s active and doesn’t lose? While I’m no fan of Ric Flair, his catchphrase is quite apt on this topic: “To be the man, you gotta beat the man.” Even if Fedor fights jobbers from now until the end of time, he never loses his status as lineal champion so long as he never gets an ‘L’ on his record. You may not be happy that he’s taking the path of least resistance, but a champion can only lose his title in the ring or if he’s permanently retired (and not a Jim Jeffires “I’ll never come back… oh wait, yes I will 5 years later!”-type of retirement), which would only be recognized years later anyway.
The IFL is like the PS3 of videogames. Sony made a huge mistake thinking that consumers would want to pay $600 for a blu ray player like the backers of the IFL made the fundamental error thinking that MMA was big enough to support two major orgs. There isn’t much the IFL can do other than dial back their ambitions and become a smaller indie show (which i’m sure is unacceptable to their investors). They should have adopted the Cuban baby steps approach rather than shooting for the moon.
Fair enough. A “champion” of an organization doesn’t lose his #1 ranking unless he’s defeated. However, a “champion” of public opinion, which is what his #1 ranking is right now, is subject to the public’s view of his accomplishments. Would you argue that Anderson Silva should stay #1 if he leaves the UFC and goes to Japan and fight cans for the next five years?
Shogun Rua would still be #1 if he had gone to Strikeforce/EliteXC and fight cans. As far as I am concerned, Fedor’s most accomplished feat was the dismantling of Cro Cop and Nogueira. Those two haven’t exactly lit the UFC on fire.
I just think that everyone has gotten sick and tired of not seeing Fedor fight legit heavyweight opponents, and I tend to agree. Fedor would fight if he wanted to, and I think that what he is doing is costing him legions of supporters and fans who for years stuck by him as the numero uno fighter in the world.
“Even if Fedor fights jobbers from now until the end of time, he never loses his status as lineal champion so long as he never gets an ‘L’ on his record.”
Being a lineal champion means less than nothing unless Fedor is actually fighting worthy challengers.
If people are regarding Silva as the lineal MW champion, yes. That’s the big question: are these guys lineal (IE: THE champion) of the world or just an organization (the MMA equivalent of sanctioning body) champion whereas the ‘official’ website rankings are supposed to be the ‘undisputed’ placement of these guys? If they are lineal, you can’t just randomly strip them of the belt (like various state commissions and eventually The Ring did to Muhammad Ali when he got convicted of draft evasion and appealed). If the lineal (‘undisputed’) claim is only granted through public opinion, then you’d be correct.
I honestly don’t know how one would determine the lineal champs in MMA like in Boxing (when guys like Corbett, ‘Nonpareil’ Dempsey, Root, etc.) when it was due to public acceptance or simply being the first to put a claim to a weight class at the time, so yeah, I guess you’re right on this, cyphron.
“How long will Fedor retain his #1 rankings if he keeps fighting middleweights and has-beens?”
If you want to drop Fedor out of #1 due to inactivity, you should drop him from the rankings all together, not down to #2 or #3.
Fedor’s problem is that he hasn’t fought most of the best fighters in the HWT division. His best accomplishments were Crocop and Big Nog. How does he fair against the other top HWT fighters, like Couture, Gonzaga, Arlovski, Silvia, etc?
You guys mentioned Anderson Silva, so I”ll bring him up. He easily looks like the most dominant fighter I’ve ever seen in a division. However, if he left the UFC now, I’m not sure I could call him the best MW in the world. He hasn’t beaten guys like Hendo or Filho yet, only Franklin and Marquardt. If Filho or Hendo came into the UFC MW division and also beat Franklin and Marquardt, then we’re at a bit of a quandary about whether or not Anderson is better than them. Eventually I’d have to give it to Hendo or Marquardt, because they’ll probably beat other, newly top ranked opponents that Anderson never fought.
The same thing will happen if Big Nog loses. Fedor’s legacy will have a huge question mark, and since he’s not active he won’t be able to set it straight. So if a guy ever comes in and beats Big Nog, Crocop, and one other top guy like Arlovski, I don’t see how you can’t rank him higher than Fedor. And I’m talking about a lifetime achievements type ranking, not just a temporary “who’s currently the best” ranking. You don’t have to beat the man to be the man, you just have to beat everyone he’s beat and take it a step further.
I can’t believe Houston Alexander is on the front page of yahoo.com. Big news for MMA
That’s only true insofar as public opinion, not in terms of the true championship (if there is one). Just because Sonny Liston crushed most of the late 50s and early 60s HW scene while Floyd Patterson took on (mainly) soft touches and Ingemar Johansson as champion doesn’t mean Patterson wasn’t the champ. He may have been ducking Liston until 1962, but he was still ‘the man’ and the best Liston could claim until his first round KO was being the ‘peoples champion’, not the true champion.
“You guys mentioned Anderson Silva, so I”ll bring him up. He easily looks like the most dominant fighter I’ve ever seen in a division. However, if he left the UFC now, I’m not sure I could call him the best MW in the world.”
I see your truuueee cooollooorrsss shiiining through.
Tomer:
“True” championship? Couture is the only HWT champ in a major MMA org. Obviously when we’re talking about Fedor being #1, it’s public opinion.
“I see your truuueee cooollooorrsss shiiining through.”
Because I think Hendo or Filho could *possibly* be better Anderson? Until he beats them, or they lose stock, then I couldn’t sit here and say that without a doubt Anderson Silva is the greatest MW in the world, period, bar none, end of story. I think he is, and he looks like he is. But there’s some doubt, which is why they fight, and that’s why I enjoy watching them fight.
I see the organizational belts as the equivalent of the IBF, WBA, WBC, WBO, etc. Sure, the IBF champion can also be the lineal champion, but the lineal claim is a separate claim entirely than the organizational title. Just because Randy Couture holds an organizational belt does not mean he’s the lineal champion.
It’s interesting seeing people argue about lineal champions.
To me that’s always been a complete sideline for true sport geeks in soccer etc. I regard it as a cheap trick because you end up with countries like Belgium holding a lineal world championship because some other country sent their B squad for a scrimmage.
The reason that we hold tournaments and title fights is that we’re attempting to determine first of all who is actually worthy of holding the championship based on their recent history. Cans can’t win the championship, and we don’t hold other fights to that same standard in terms of expectation that we hold a title fight to. We can forgive a guy for coming in a little out of shape against some guy that he should beat easily as long as he does it. If you show up like that for a national main event…even if you win you’re going to get detractors for that kind of stunt.
I think that’s the real reason that Chuck has fallen so quickly from grace. It had started before his recent loss. It started the second that he hit the mat against Rampage. He didn’t come ready to fight, he didn’t act like a champion, and he didn’t hold up the kind of standard that we expect of a championship calibre fighter in a championship fight.
So you’re saying that the WEC belt and the UFC belt are equal?
I’m saying that, by themselves, they are not an ‘undisputed’ claim to being a division champion. In Boxing, you aren’t the ‘undisputed’ champion unless you (a) beat the current one or (b) unify the belts. The WBC Junior Welterweight champion, Junior Witter, for example, isn’t the ‘undisputed’ Junior Welterweight champion as Ricky Hatton beat the last ‘man’ of the division, Kostya Tszyu, and is still fighting (on and off) in the weight class. Given that you (likely) won’t see the UFC and Elite XC groups (for example) unifying belts, you can’t determine on the face value who is truly the ‘undisputed’ champion since all the claimants haven’t been claimed.
You can claim that Anderson Silva is the ‘undisputed’ Middleweight champion as he’s the champion of the most prestigious organization, but it’d simply be a matter of opinion and not a true claim like the aforementioned Hatton has to the lineal Junior Welterweight title since he hasn’t beat the top guys in the other organizations (such as Akiyama) to prove himself the king of the heap.
Has UFC ever used “undisputed” in reference to their titles?
I’m thinking maybe they used it when there was an interim titleholder who went up against the existing titleholder, but they don’t typically throw it around.
The point of the side tangent was regarding to Fedor being dropped from #1 HW, which I was arguing that there are 2 #1 spots to consider: public opinion and the ‘true’ champion. I was simply saying that if one regards Fedor as the ‘true’ champion (which some in the past have argued as they traced the UFC HW title lineage to when Randy Couture left after the contract dispute switching hands to Fedor eventually, making him the ‘unified’ champion of the time) then you can’t simply strip him even if he was fighting the Zulus of the world from now to eternity, just like Floyd Patterson did not lose the lineal HW title just because his management preferred taking a path of lesser resistance than Sonny Liston and the other top contenders who were under the IBC until Patterson was forced to take on Liston in 1962 after winning back the title from Ingemar Johansson. In the court of public opinion, Liston may have been higher than Patterson, but purely from a title lineage standpoint, Patterson was the champion and Liston was the #1 contender.