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	<title>Comments on: Thursday trash talk: Japan&#8217;s tough guys</title>
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		<title>By: Fightlinker.com</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/comment-page-1/#comment-40473</link>
		<dc:creator>Fightlinker.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/#comment-40473</guid>
		<description>I think the UFC should set itself as the industry leader in pay. There shouldn&#039;t be anyone fighting in the ufc that&#039;s not getting 10k/10k ... if they&#039;re not worth that then they shouldn&#039;t be in the big show.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the UFC should set itself as the industry leader in pay. There shouldn&#8217;t be anyone fighting in the ufc that&#8217;s not getting 10k/10k &#8230; if they&#8217;re not worth that then they shouldn&#8217;t be in the big show.</p>
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		<title>By: StreitigKaiser</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/comment-page-1/#comment-40442</link>
		<dc:creator>StreitigKaiser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 01:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/#comment-40442</guid>
		<description>UFC better do what it can to stifle Gary Shaw&#039;s ambitions. Boxing is overcrowded right now with too many weight classes, it detracts the acclaim that champions deserve when there are &quot;belts that don&#039;t really matter&quot;, that of which boxing is abundant. I mean honestly how are they going to attract people by de-legitimizing titles by adding the word &#039;super&#039; on top of every weight category. MMA fighters don&#039;t care, most of them are former wrestlers who are already used to the weight divisions created by the UFC. Don&#039;t get me wrong, I like boxing or at least I used to (lets face it, its pretty much rigged). Dana White is right about one thing, the MMA industry is a proverbial house of cards and all it takes is one these upstarts via over politicizing the rules or allowing head stomps in the case of M-1 (as fun as head stomps are) to bring it all down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>UFC better do what it can to stifle Gary Shaw&#8217;s ambitions. Boxing is overcrowded right now with too many weight classes, it detracts the acclaim that champions deserve when there are &#8220;belts that don&#8217;t really matter&#8221;, that of which boxing is abundant. I mean honestly how are they going to attract people by de-legitimizing titles by adding the word &#8217;super&#8217; on top of every weight category. MMA fighters don&#8217;t care, most of them are former wrestlers who are already used to the weight divisions created by the UFC. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I like boxing or at least I used to (lets face it, its pretty much rigged). Dana White is right about one thing, the MMA industry is a proverbial house of cards and all it takes is one these upstarts via over politicizing the rules or allowing head stomps in the case of M-1 (as fun as head stomps are) to bring it all down.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy (not that Jeremy)</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/comment-page-1/#comment-40441</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy (not that Jeremy)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/#comment-40441</guid>
		<description>The model has worked so far.  That doesn&#039;t mean that it will continue to work.

On the other hand, players unions have proven themselves to be effective ways to provide sports with a stable (i.e. largely lawsuit free particularly in regards to antitrust) way to operate.

There are casino worker unions.  I don&#039;t know if Zuffa&#039;s casino operations are unionized, however, historically, the MLBPA was able to organize because the United Steel Workers backed them up.  Sympathy strikes do wonders.

The fighters in UFC don&#039;t have to wait for their contracts to end to unionize.  The problem that they face is that, apparently (based on Jeff&#039;s statements), they are currently classified as independent contractors.  Independent contractors are not covered by the National Labor Relations Act.  However, there is some precedent for people who have historically been classified as &quot;independent contractors&quot; to become classified as employees.  Child care workers are typically &quot;independent contractors,&quot; but in Illinois and New York, executive orders clarified their status and unions were formed.

Ironically, the reason that independent contractors can&#039;t unionize is that it&#039;s considered an anti-trust action.  That&#039;s why it takes state action to permit them to unionize (they basically are given an anti-trust exemption by that state).

The classification of a person as an independent contractor or an employee is kind of complicated, but if you take the case of MMA vs WWE, you can pretty easily say that WWE performers are much more likely to be employees than are MMA fighters.  They have a directed tour that they participate in, and they have their specific activities directed by WWE.

On the other hand, UFC doesn&#039;t tell fighters how to train, where to train, etc, they typically can&#039;t even tell fighters that they have to make public appearances or cut promos.  They say, &quot;we&#039;re paying you to fight so and so on such and such a date, have a good time.&quot;  That&#039;s pretty much a classic independent contractor scenario.

I think that the Right Thing is for MMA fighters to form a union.  However, the process to get from here to there is not clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The model has worked so far.  That doesn&#8217;t mean that it will continue to work.</p>
<p>On the other hand, players unions have proven themselves to be effective ways to provide sports with a stable (i.e. largely lawsuit free particularly in regards to antitrust) way to operate.</p>
<p>There are casino worker unions.  I don&#8217;t know if Zuffa&#8217;s casino operations are unionized, however, historically, the MLBPA was able to organize because the United Steel Workers backed them up.  Sympathy strikes do wonders.</p>
<p>The fighters in UFC don&#8217;t have to wait for their contracts to end to unionize.  The problem that they face is that, apparently (based on Jeff&#8217;s statements), they are currently classified as independent contractors.  Independent contractors are not covered by the National Labor Relations Act.  However, there is some precedent for people who have historically been classified as &#8220;independent contractors&#8221; to become classified as employees.  Child care workers are typically &#8220;independent contractors,&#8221; but in Illinois and New York, executive orders clarified their status and unions were formed.</p>
<p>Ironically, the reason that independent contractors can&#8217;t unionize is that it&#8217;s considered an anti-trust action.  That&#8217;s why it takes state action to permit them to unionize (they basically are given an anti-trust exemption by that state).</p>
<p>The classification of a person as an independent contractor or an employee is kind of complicated, but if you take the case of MMA vs WWE, you can pretty easily say that WWE performers are much more likely to be employees than are MMA fighters.  They have a directed tour that they participate in, and they have their specific activities directed by WWE.</p>
<p>On the other hand, UFC doesn&#8217;t tell fighters how to train, where to train, etc, they typically can&#8217;t even tell fighters that they have to make public appearances or cut promos.  They say, &#8220;we&#8217;re paying you to fight so and so on such and such a date, have a good time.&#8221;  That&#8217;s pretty much a classic independent contractor scenario.</p>
<p>I think that the Right Thing is for MMA fighters to form a union.  However, the process to get from here to there is not clear.</p>
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		<title>By: The Gaijin</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/comment-page-1/#comment-40433</link>
		<dc:creator>The Gaijin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/#comment-40433</guid>
		<description>Just reading about the CSAC debacle with Baroni.  Sounds like the friggin&#039; Keystone Kops...what a gongshow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just reading about the CSAC debacle with Baroni.  Sounds like the friggin&#8217; Keystone Kops&#8230;what a gongshow.</p>
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		<title>By: ilostmydog</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/comment-page-1/#comment-40432</link>
		<dc:creator>ilostmydog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/#comment-40432</guid>
		<description>So where are the new fighters that M-1 Global has signed?  They promised that they would reveal their roster of fighters within 7-10 days.  The deadline has passed without any news except some fluff pieces about their internal organization.  Why haven&#039;t those who hang on every misque performed by another organization jump down the collective throats of M-1 and start labelling them as deceitful and liars?  LOL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So where are the new fighters that M-1 Global has signed?  They promised that they would reveal their roster of fighters within 7-10 days.  The deadline has passed without any news except some fluff pieces about their internal organization.  Why haven&#8217;t those who hang on every misque performed by another organization jump down the collective throats of M-1 and start labelling them as deceitful and liars?  LOL.</p>
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		<title>By: Mateo</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/comment-page-1/#comment-40431</link>
		<dc:creator>Mateo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 20:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/#comment-40431</guid>
		<description>Why would you hate that model if it is working? Because of the negative stigma attached to WWE?

You want MMA to go the boxing route?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would you hate that model if it is working? Because of the negative stigma attached to WWE?</p>
<p>You want MMA to go the boxing route?</p>
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		<title>By: cyphron</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/comment-page-1/#comment-40430</link>
		<dc:creator>cyphron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 18:58:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/#comment-40430</guid>
		<description>Michaelthebox,

Very good point. I never thought about it quite that way. The UFC pays fighters in both tangible (monetary) and intangibles (brand equities, marketability). Would people care as much if Randy Couture wins the title at EliteXC? His worth as a fighter is tied to the UFC. Couture&#039;s worth goes considerably down if he fights for another organization. Likewise, Fedor is worth $2 mill with the UFC, but is definitely not worth that much with M-1. People forget that the UFC is a product of various parts: fighters, marketing, branding, exposure, management, planning, etc. A fighter doesn&#039;t make or break the organization. As much as I hate to admit it, the current MMA system (and business model) is built more similar to the WWE model than the boxing model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michaelthebox,</p>
<p>Very good point. I never thought about it quite that way. The UFC pays fighters in both tangible (monetary) and intangibles (brand equities, marketability). Would people care as much if Randy Couture wins the title at EliteXC? His worth as a fighter is tied to the UFC. Couture&#8217;s worth goes considerably down if he fights for another organization. Likewise, Fedor is worth $2 mill with the UFC, but is definitely not worth that much with M-1. People forget that the UFC is a product of various parts: fighters, marketing, branding, exposure, management, planning, etc. A fighter doesn&#8217;t make or break the organization. As much as I hate to admit it, the current MMA system (and business model) is built more similar to the WWE model than the boxing model.</p>
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		<title>By: Michaelthebox</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/comment-page-1/#comment-40429</link>
		<dc:creator>Michaelthebox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 18:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/#comment-40429</guid>
		<description>klown, while I agree with a lot of what you say, I completely disagree with what you say about non-exclusivity.  The UFC has spent years carefully building up brand equity, and any fighter who fights in the UFC benefits from his name being associated with the UFC.  

The UFC has every right to protect themselves from fighters who grab a bit of UFC fame and then promptly take it to other organizations.  Especially those top-tier fighters who the UFC spends time marketing.  If all contracts were non-exclusive, the UFC would basically be better off using non-marketable fighters.  Do you really want a world where all the Shoguns and Liddells and GSPs are fighting in various minor organizations BECAUSE they&#039;re fun to watch?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>klown, while I agree with a lot of what you say, I completely disagree with what you say about non-exclusivity.  The UFC has spent years carefully building up brand equity, and any fighter who fights in the UFC benefits from his name being associated with the UFC.  </p>
<p>The UFC has every right to protect themselves from fighters who grab a bit of UFC fame and then promptly take it to other organizations.  Especially those top-tier fighters who the UFC spends time marketing.  If all contracts were non-exclusive, the UFC would basically be better off using non-marketable fighters.  Do you really want a world where all the Shoguns and Liddells and GSPs are fighting in various minor organizations BECAUSE they&#8217;re fun to watch?</p>
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		<title>By: Leland Roling</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/comment-page-1/#comment-40428</link>
		<dc:creator>Leland Roling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 18:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/#comment-40428</guid>
		<description>Wow, Pavia was actually pretty convincing in his argument on the UG. Very odd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Pavia was actually pretty convincing in his argument on the UG. Very odd.</p>
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		<title>By: cyphron</title>
		<link>http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/comment-page-1/#comment-40426</link>
		<dc:creator>cyphron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 18:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fightopinion.com/2007/10/31/thursday-trash-talk-japans-tough-guys/#comment-40426</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;
Fighters should have more freedom to fight at different promotions. No promoter has the right to “own” a fighter, as Dana White loves to brag - EVER &lt;/i&gt;

This is good for the fighters, but decidedly is bad for the fans. If this happens, I foresee three undisputed titles, three different title fights at three different events, and champions who never fight each other. Kinda like boxing and the MMA heavyweight picture right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><br />
Fighters should have more freedom to fight at different promotions. No promoter has the right to “own” a fighter, as Dana White loves to brag &#8211; EVER </i></p>
<p>This is good for the fighters, but decidedly is bad for the fans. If this happens, I foresee three undisputed titles, three different title fights at three different events, and champions who never fight each other. Kinda like boxing and the MMA heavyweight picture right now.</p>
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