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Wednesday war room: Do you care about Liddell vs. Silva?
By Zach Arnold | October 23, 2007
I want to send my regards to Jeff Comstock, who will moving a lot of his columns over to Bloody Elbow. You can check out Jeff’s latest BE article here.
The IFL stock this morning has plunged down to $0.33/share.
The UFC 77 payscale.
Bleacher Report calls Randy Couture a joke. The author continues to fan the flames:
Your all entitled to your opinions but mine still stands. You say those cheesy movies give him lots of money..then I say he’s a sell out. When does it become more about money than fighting? I’ll be here watching the real fighters. And as I stated before goo, Couture certainly has earned the right to pick his last remaining fights, but then why did he decide to fight for the belt, only to leave so soon. I would of liked to see how far he could of gone with it.
Kevin Iole talks about Tim Sylvia:
Sylvia isn’t a highly skilled fighter. The reason he’s a top guy is his size and his sheer power. But he hurts himself, as I said above, by not throwing more. He needs to be active, active, active, active.
UFC announced that Chuck Liddell vs. Wanderlei Silva will happen on 12/29 in Las Vegas.
Sam Caplan ranks MMA’s Top 10 overachievers. I’m not buying Sakuraba as an overachiever.
The process to make MMA legal in Tennessee continues.
There will be an MMA & BJJ seminar on November 3rd to raise money for St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital.
Jeremy Horn will be holding a seminar in Glenwood, Colorado on Saturday.
Meet Bryant Craven.
Max Kellerman was suspended from ESPN Radio. (Hat tip: Mikeinformer.)
Shad Lierley will be staying with the IFL.
Eddie Goldman was at the M-1 press conference in NYC on Monday and has some audio clips from the event. He also has some suggestions on how to make Fedor a star in America. MMA Analyst has more details about M-1, Fedor, and how Dana White’s mouth played a role in the way things unfolded. Ben Fowlkes has more details about who’s backing M-1. Plus, an interesting press release about White Chocolate Management working with Latin Television.
Adam Swift has another update about UFC fighters allegedly having problems paying fighters they had sponsorship deals with. I’ll ask the question again — how can a company that is the main sponsor of the largest MMA promotion in the world be able to pay UFC but not supposedly be able to pay the fighters it has separate deals with?
Is UFC throwing UK fighters under the bus?
Randy Couture’s press conference will be carried live on HDNet. If anyone manages to record the video of this and put it on YouTube or DailyMotion the same day, it would be much appreciated it.
The CSAC agenda for the 10/31 Los Angeles meeting.
Amir Khan won’t be driving for the next six months.
Team Link in Mass. has Thiago Silva and Paulo Filho in the fold.
The Halifax Daily News stands up for Roger Hollett.
An article about MMA in Kansas.
Topics: Boxing, Canada, HDNet, IFL, M-1, MMA, Media, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | | Permalink | Trackback | Share This
From a hardcore’s perspective:
While this fight has lost a great deal of its lustre, I think it will still draw a great deal of interest (at least from ‘us’), as it’s been that “unicorn” fight that we’ve been yearning for and couldn’t have for so long.
From the casual fan’s perspective:
I think they could really put the hype machine out there to drum up interest, but I believe that the “ADD” that seems to riddle casual fans of sports (and almost anything for that matter) this fight was “so 15 minutes ago”.
YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!
I care about the fighter between Silva and Liddell!
Count me as one of the believers in that fight. I do not care that it is for either title or whatever about both of them coming off two losses…I want to see this fight, and I hope that both guys come out with their guns, fists, and knees blazing.
I have been waiting over four years for this fight.
WTF? Yes, anyone who has watched MMA for the last 4 years wants to see this fight. Experiencing whats transpired in the last couple years can be summed up in this statement: MMA is fickle. Sure, not to long ago we thought these two guys were the best……and now we know the truth. It’s almost impossible to sustain a long and convincing championship defence. Anderson Silva is creating his own legacy now it seems, and before him there were two champions in a different division. 205, and it was Wand and Chuck! This is a better headline fight than, Silva/Franklin 2 was, this is a better fight than Bisping/Evans will be, and we should all be looking forward to this.
I never cared much for Silva/Liddell 2 years ago when it was a big thing. My dream fight is GSP/Fitch which would be a far more technical fight then this one. With that said, I will still enjoy it on PPV and I am sure it will help sell tons of PPVs.
Kevin Iole is right about Tim Sylvia. The guy just doesn’t do enough during fights.
As for Eddie Goldman, the guy has lost all credibility a long time ago.
Fedor Emelianenko is going to be a hard sell for the American public. He has the following things working against him:
1. He doesn’t speak English. Look at Anderson Silva. The guy has been nothing but brilliant but really is not a huge star because he doesn’t speak English.
2. He looks pudgy. I know this is superficial, but hard bodies sell in America.
3. Television. M-1 currently doesn’t have any of it. It is extremely hard to push a fighter without TV. And even if they do get TV, there is no guarantee that they will be successful. IFL has failed. Bodog has failed worse. EliteXC has Showtime and can’t produce over 30,000 PPV Buys. Not to mention that M-1 or their parent company really do not have any history with producing television.
4. It isn’t in the UFC. Whether fight fans like it or not, the UFC sells… Everything else does not. This could possibly change in the future, but it would be very difficult to knock down a company with so many superstars.
Not to mention that one shot to Fedor’s chin, and the entire franchise is over.
“Anderson Silva is creating his own legacy now it seems,”
No offense to Anderson, who I find to be a great, (and entertaining as the bob and weave to spinning backfist to flying knee combo he put on Rich leaves no doubt of), but to say he’s building his own championship legacy is premature. Rich was a great UFC champion in a division where they are desperate for competition and have only 1 of the top 5 fighters in the world competing at. All due respect to Anderson but I have him as an underdog to Dangerous Decision Hollywood Hendo (HEAVYILY), Lindland, and teammate Paulo and even money with both Kang and Akiyama (who I am distinctly excited to see challenge one of the elite.) And purely speculation… But whatever happened to Bustemante? I think he’d be a bad matchup for Anderson also.
I hope Anderson gets the chance to prove me wrong but i’m the anti 45Huddle and don’t see the UFC willing to spend enough money to make any of these happen.
In contrast guys with awesome championship legacies such as Wanderlei, Chuck, Hughes or Fedor have faced everybody in divisions with stiff competition, and beaten almost all.
Thanks for all of your support Zach.
To be truthful, I think that when I see Wanderlei stare down Liddell in the center of the octagon as they receive their final instructions, with Silva’s wrists a’twirling, it will send a shiver down my back.
Eddie Goldman, greeting Trigg at the presser with the line, and I’m paraphrasing, “Welcome to Zuffa’s funeral, or let’s hope so” made laugh at Goldman’s amazing hatred for the UFC.
No Jeff thanks for all your and Zach’s hard work. You are two of the very best, (If not THE very best) MMA journalists around. Your efforts are greatly appreiciated by those of us that wanna check out a little bit more than Dana’s widely spouted “party line.”
yes. bring the match on. He’ll I’d like to see a two out of three series over the year if the first match isn’t a complete blow out.
Skwirrl: Busta last fought at DEEP 29 in april. It seems that he’s stepping away from active fighting, focussing more on coaching. He recently turned 41, so it’s understandable that his priorities are shifting.
As for Wand/Chuck: I’m not interested that much in the fight, but it should serve it’s purpose.
A few extra comments. For anyone who does not think that what Anderson Silva is doing right now is not legacy-building, I want to know what fights you have been watching. And also, whoever said that speaking English is a requirement for getting over, I suggest that you back and look at Anderson Silva’s impassioned Portugese verbal assault after he beat Travis Lutter….I did not understand a word of it, nor did Joe Rogan or the crowd that was there that night, but we all got the message loud and clear. It is all in how you say it, and Fedor will say it in the ring with his dominance…hell, he earned the name “Darth Fedor”, and that translate into any language.
And another thing, if Tim Sylvia is so bad, why is he beating so many top fighters? Size you say? Well, there are bigger guys out there who are worse than he is…Giant Silva, Sentoryu, Emmanuel Yardborough, Eric Pele, Antonio Silva, Bob Sapp, and so forth and so on. The fact is that Tim Sylvia is a very GOOD MMA fighter, but he is also a very BORING mma fighter. We need to distinguish between the two.
Skwirrl, thanks for the kind words. I hope you’ll follow my work over at Bloody Elbow, and hopefully time providing here occasionally here as well.
Or Spanish…
Liddell vs. Silva - absolutely YES.
This is the second biggest fight (financially) that could be made right now in MMA; second to Fedor vs. Randy. And with both fighters coming off of back-to-back losses, there is no better time than now. Did the sweet spot of when the fight should have happened long pass - yes. But they are still two incredible, legendary fighters who simply must face off, both for the fans and themselves.
I suppose most sourpuss elitists would rather have them fight anything other than what gets announced, regardless. Here are two top 10 Light Heavyweights meeting at time when many think their careers may soon be over. If you are against this matchup, please enlighten me and explain when it should be made. Seriously.
The Anderson Silva Legacy - he has dominated and finished 8 of 9 opponents in the last 3 years in very impressive fashion; even the Okami loss was a fight he was contolling as well, actually TKO’ing Okami in an upkick he thought was legal, no excuses but I’m just stating the facts.
Compare this to Fedor (for arguments sake), the only Top 10 fighter he’s finished in his career was Heath Herring (an argument could be made for Lindland). And in the last 5 years the only elite level opponents he’s defeated were Nogueira and Mirko, both decisions. Now I have Fedor at #1 Heavyweight, but Anderson at #1 Pound for Pound.
My point is only that the perspective Anderson must overcome is that of the Pride/Japanese romanticism. He didn’t get his big wins in Pride so he must work harder to impress the elite core fans of MMA.
After reading all of the articles regarding M-1 Global, the entire boat seems to come down to one statement by Mitchell Maxwell:
“Anything you do in business involves risk,” said Maxwell. “A lot of people would say you have to be crazy to back something like this, but we have the best fighter in the world and everybody wants to be aligned with the best.”
I think this is a complete mistake. Sure, people want to associate themselves with the best, but in the end, the more exposure, the better contract, the sponsor exposure, etc. all play big roles. M-1 is going to have a hard time getting a television deal that is legitimately going to be able to promote Fedor. If it’s on a pay package like HBO or Showtime, I don’t flip onto either unless Boxing or ShoXC is on. How are you going to market him then?
It just seems like such a bold statement when in the reality of MMA, fighters aren’t going to be running for the hills from their current organization just to fight in M-1, especially in the non-heavyweight divisions.
M-1 is going to have a hard time getting a television deal that is legitimately going to be able to promote Fedor. If it’s on a pay package like HBO or Showtime, I don’t flip onto either unless Boxing or ShoXC is on. How are you going to market him then?
Do you consider yourself a prototypical HBO viewer then? Because that’s not how most people who pay for the network watch it or Showtime.
I often have issues with Zach and his reporting style, and feel he does sometimes let his opinions be known too strongly, but good god is he better than Caplan. that guy is horrible. how is Fedor not on the overachiever list? he is the ULTIMATE overachiever.
Sherdog has a new story up concerning Sibling and Mitchell Maxwell.
Quote: “We come to the table with money,” Maxwell said. “We’re not apologetic about the fact that it costs money to do this.”
What Maxwell does know is the entertainment business. After spending 34 years producing successful plays and building entertainment companies from the ground up, he has the kind of business savvy that can translate to any endeavor.
I don’t know, but as deeper as I dig into the Maxwells and their business endeavors, the more it looks as if their pockets aren’t as deep as anyone thinks.
Like I said before, when it comes to movies, they’re more or less parading around, touting that they produced content groundbreaking and box office record breaking films with a-list talent. They may have done 6 films to date, but the only one worth mentioning is “Jeffrey”, an adaption of a play that they co-produced, which featured all the mentioned “a-list talent”, had the highest budget of all “their” films (which in reality were produced with a bunch of other production companies which most probably did the funding) at 1.75 mio $, and grossed roughly 3 mio $, not even breaking into the BO Top 20 during it’s theatrical run.
Not exactly what i’d be calling groundbreaking in any way. But they still want to be movie producers, and that’s why they’re now aiming at producing films with the help of: film funds! Yes, they’ve finally discovered the holy grail of Hollywood (because almost all of Hollywoods big blockbusters of the last 15 years have been financed by [mostly german] filmfunds). In a nutshell: they don’t have the money to produce films with a halfwhat decent budget, and therefore have to rely on other peoples money (who in turn expect the films to flop, so they can write the investment off at the taxes).
But moving on:
In 1999 the Maxwells acquired the distribution rights to the stock of Dream LLC, a small company that produced 3 c-pictures between 1994 and 1998, and owned the US-rights to a NZ film from 1977, and created a new company, AM Films, to distribute and sell the films over the internet. in 2003, after failing to market their product, and failing to acquire additional funding to keep the company afloat, they shut down their “film division” and returned to their old stomping grounds of producing musicals and plays.
Long story short: he invested in crap, couldn’t market crap, lost money on crap, tried to get other people to invest in crap, and when he finally realized he didn’t know what he was doing, he flushed said crap down the toilet.
Call me a pessimist, but this - does - not - look - good!
Jason, it’s unrealistic to expect top ten fighters to finish one another. If you’re an elite competitor, you should be difficult to finish, especially in 5-minute intervals. I seems to me that finishing opponents is often a sign of an opponent’s weakness, not a finisher’s strength. Re: Hendo/Rampage.
im not a grammar bitch. especially when reading forums posts and such, but if this bleacher guy wants me to pay attention to his opinions he needs to learn the difference between ‘would of’ and ‘would have’.
D.Capitated,
Maybe I’m not the typical viewer HBO or Showtime looks for. I’ve seen a lot of movies, so buying the packages for some entertainment was also something I was looking for as well. I watch Dexter from time to time, etc., but there isn’t much time in all of that to run some ads promoting M-1, and if there is or if I was a typical viewer, I’d flip to another channel until the movie or show I wanted to see was on. It just seems like if that’s the only deal they can get, it’d be a bad way to promote him. I’m not sure how they would do other things though, probably ads in written publications, etc.
Preach,
Check out some of the articles on my blog for some other fun facts about how Mitchell Maxwell is a pretty bad investor. Apparently they invested in a rechargeable battery company that completely went under within two years. Various other crap investments or small investments that gave very little profit. It seems the only real successful endeavour was rejuvenating the Denver Civic Theater. They increased sales by by nearly $2 million when it had very dismal numbers. That’s chump change though.
Also, the article by Tomas Rios at Sherdog makes me think that Maxwell is basically banking this whole thing on a couple huge PPV events. I mean, it just seems like they will put on a crap card with Fedor on it and expect huge numbers that will make their money problem vanish.
“And as I stated before goo, Couture certainly has earned the right to pick his last remaining fights, but then why did he decide to fight for the belt, only to leave so soon. I would of liked to see how far he could of gone with it.”
The only fight that the UFC could have put on that would have intrigued me is Couture v. Big Nog and it’s not even clear if that would have ever happened considering all of the upsets that have been happening and how close he came to being KO’d by Herring. After that, where would Couture go? A title fight against Cheick Kongo, Eddie Sanchez, Frank Mir, Arlovski? Not exactly first rate challengers or big pay days. If the speculation is true and Couture is going to go fight Fedor once his contract expires then that is awesome and Lex Luthor and his army of lawyers can go to hell for trying to deny the fight they couldn’t get done.
And personally, I’m interested in seeing Liddell v. Silva even though it’s no longer a best of the LHW match. It’s still an interesting fight and now I think instead of determining who is the best it might have the effect of determining whose career is going to end.
Sakuraba is not the most atheletically gifted guy and fought guys that were much heavier than him for most of career (if you look at his record, nearly all of his loses came from guys that were bigger than him). What’s truly remarkable is that he was still able to ekk out a few wins against tough 205ers like a Belfort, Rampage (granted he was depleted) and Randleman. If that’s not overachieving, I don’t know what is.
If anyone wants proof that Sherdog/Josh Gross has an agenda against Dana White, just look at the report Fedor’s reaction to the “crazy russian” comments. To my knowledge, no other media has reported on those comments so it sounds like Gross baited Fedor.
Then the MMA Analyst called it the “final nail in the coffin” which completely mischaracterizes how it was reported on Sherdog which Fedor said “You cannot start a relationship with someone using those phrases.” That is more like getting off on the wrong foot than calling it a nail in the coffin. Gross’ agenda is clear. He’s trying give credence to his belief that Dana White’s tactics are now hurting his business (as he has often said on the Beatdown).
If I learn later that Fedor volunteered that information on his own, then I’m completely wrong and it should be reported. But Gross’ report isn’t clear on that point and to me it looks like he baited Fedor to make his point.
It was a nail in the coffin. The deal didn’t happen. Sure, there were other reasons, but when it’s mentioned by the fighter that “You cannot start a relationship with someone using those phrases”, it’s obviously something that was a factor. I also believe that those comments weren’t said during the press conference. Gross has a much better relationship with Fedor’s representation than most outlets as well.
Dana White’s tactics are hurting the UFC, it’s starting to show. His stupid personal beefs with fighters have limited some of the talent they could have had already. Barnett, Lindland. He didn’t even personally meet with Fedor, which I feel is completely ridiculous. If the guy is someone you really want, you should make an effort. He then manages to call them “crazy Russians” and then it’s said during the interview that it was a factor.
p.s. WAR W. SILVA!!!!
From the pure “fan” perspective…I have been waiting for this fight for far too long. So I’ll be buying it, that is for sure.
Not to mention that Sherdog has 4 articles/videos on their main page concerning Fedor/M-1 and not 1 blurb about Liddell/Silva being signed, despite the news already being 12 hours old. They bring a whole new meaning to the word BIASED. Gross is rather pathetic. It is obvious he has jumped onto this M-1 concept so much. It is another long shot idea, but Gross & Sherwood hate the UFC so much they will do anything to get another company in the spotlight.
The UFC Payscale for the last event was really good. Sylvia got $200,000. Silva got $160,000. Vera got $100,000. Franklin got $45,000 (old contract). I like MMA like that. None of the the fighters are getting paid millions, but they are all getting paid enough that with 3 fights a year they are pulling in $400,000 a year. This allows more top guys per card then boxing, were all the top money goes to 2 fighters and the sport suffers because of it.
I was surprised not to see Kid Yamamoto on that list. For someone who has fought (and won) almost entirely out of his weight class, the guy has been a tremendous overachiever.
P.S. Look for me on Bloody Elbow over the coming weeks as well, posting under my (sort’ve) real name, Mike David.
I’ll try to remember to record the press thing tomorrow afternoon.
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I don’t buy HBO or Showtime because I’m extremely bad about keeping up with television shows, and when it comes to movies, I’ve got HDNet Movies and Universal HD which provide more content than I would watch.
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I think that Kongo vs Sylvia (not Silva, what the hell was up with that?) is a very interesting matchup on paper.
Lesnar’s another interesting fight because he has that huge body mass.
To really produce interesting fights with Tim, I think you need to put him up against guys who are tall enough or large enough to go toe to toe on an even basis, and who are going to be aggressive, because as long as they’re not going to really go at it, he’s going to continue to get (good) advice from his corner to just shut them down and take it to the bell.
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What’s going on with Fedor’s brother contract-wise? Is he part of this M-1 package?
I’m sure he will be announced within the next 10 days.
For a guy who calls himself the MMA Analyst, I’m surprised that you take Gross’ report completely at face-value and turn a blindeye to his history and motivations.
I’d like to see some clear and fact-based analysis on exactly how Dana White’s tactics have hurt the UFC. Last time I checked, they are the most successful MMA promotion in the world today and have brought MMA to unprecedented mainstream acceptanance and popularity. Where is the trail of destruction and failures in Dana White’s wake?
Fedor’s comment is being blown up because it supports Gross’ beliefs, but its weak and it’s not even clear how much of a factor it was considering Fedor and his management’s ambitions to own a piece of the pie. Its unlikely that a off-the-cuff comment about “crazy Russians” would have changed UFC’s desire to employ Fedor vs Fedor wanting in on the action.
“I’m surprised that you take Gross’ report completely at face-value and turn a blindeye to his history and motivations.”
I’ll say this… maybe not a complete nail in the coffin, but I believe that Gross’s report with that specific quote adds something to the argument. You can say that Gross and Sherdog.com are against the UFC, but a quote doesn’t lie. In the end, Fedor’s demands weren’t met, but do you think that calling the Russians crazy helps? No. I retract my statement that it was a final nail in the coffin. I believe the demands were much more relevant.
My comment on Dana White is an opinion. I believe it has hurt the UFC is some regards. Spouting off at the mouth and having your comments blasted on ESPN does not help you gain legitimately better sponsors. There are companies that may have been considering putting money into the UFC that may not want to be associated with a cussing teenage kid of a President. It’s image. That’s what I think. Whether it happened or not, I don’t know, I’m not an insider at Coke or Pepsi, etc.
In reality, yes.. your comment is correct. The UFC is the most successful MMA promotion in the world today. But who would have a better chance at big name sponsorships? The company with a more professional attitude or a company who still employs a guy who drops the F-bomb in every episode of TUF and in every event preview. Has the consequences shown yet? No. If M-1 actually makes a run at something in the U.S., you could see some consequences. Couture vs. Fedor not happening in the UFC.
Your last paragraph, I agree.
Dana buried Silva after the loss to Mirko. he openly hates Ortiz. he calls Penn crazy. I seriously doubt the comment had much to do with it.
“Dana White’s tactics are hurting the UFC, it’s starting to show. His stupid personal beefs with fighters have limited some of the talent they could have had already. Barnett, Lindland. He didn’t even personally meet with Fedor, which I feel is completely ridiculous. If the guy is someone you really want, you should make an effort. He then manages to call them “crazy Russians” and then it’s said during the interview that it was a factor.”
I don’t believe for a second that Dana’s comments had an effect on the negotiations. In fact, I am not sure Vadim was ever particularly serious about the UFC and didn’t have his eye on something like the current M1 arrangement all along. He got Fedor mentioned on the UFC broadcasts and probably had a laugh or two at stringing Dana along. My guess is that when Dana made the “crazy Russian” remarks, Vadim had already pushed demands past the point of believability. Trust me, dealing with Russians can make your full head of hair look like Dana’s head in no time.
And NO, I don’t care about Silva-Liddell, and never really did.
A quote doesn’t lie, but it can certainly be taken out of context and the way the quote was used in the report was vague so that Gross could spin it the way he wanted. If Fedor even partly turned down millions of dollars because of being called a “crazy Russian,” then he’s the one that is stupid and a poor business man. I’m glad that you conceeded on the “final nail” point and I appreciate you responded to comments with thought and civility.
When has ESPN “blasted” White? All the major media outlets and writers understand that Dana White is a interesting character (along the lines of Bob Arum and Don King) and appreciate that he gives good quotes. When I see his interviews on ESPN or in post fight press conferences, he is professional, candid and funny. This is the Dana White that most of America sees. Most people that have poor opinion of White base this primiarily on poorly substantiated comments on the Internet where his quotes are largely taken out of context like the “I own Couture” quote.
Have you ever seen Coke, Pepsi or Nike sponsor a boxing match? Many top brands have family friendly images and would not associate themselves with any form of combat sports no matter who was the President. And who gives a damn whether big names sponsor MMA or not anyway? Would big name sponsors validate or give credibility to MMA in pop-culture or soceity? Not really. UFC has a profitable business model and that’s what’s important.
ESPN ran an interview with Randy Couture and afterward, they splashed Dana White’s quotes on the screen with banter from the Sportscenter guys in the background. It really looked bad. I will say that I forgot about the recent interview Dana White had in which he was very professional. If I saw more of that from Dana White on a regular basis, then I would definitely commend him. Having Dana White’s comment regarding “bitchslapping” Couture’s Hollywood agent on a national network can’t help him.
Your final comment is very true. But Boxing fighters have been sponsored by Nike, Roy Jones Jr. being the biggest name. But that isn’t based on someone else’s comment, but the fighter themselves. Nike has however sponsored the entire teams at the World Amateur Boxing Championships, specifically they have a deal with a team from Thailand coming up. It’s coming from the looks of it. I would think that professionalism would be at the top of their list when it comes to sponsorships.
You may be right though, maybe those kind of big sponsors won’t ever go into the fight industry. I appreciate your arguments though, the whole point of these conversations is to give me another point of view to work off of.
I saw that ESPN report and the anchor smirked as he read the comment, because its a funny thing to say, but to the best of my knowledge, no one said anything critical about Dana White or MMA after it was read. I don’t see how you can interpret that as “blasting”. It was just straight reporting. As Brandon Vera would say “Don’t believe the hype. Believe what you see.”
Many people said many critical things regarding that comment and his other comments that were related to the entire Couture/Fedor debocle. In the end, the casual fan probably doesn’t care though. I still firmly believe his unprofessionalism is going to get the UFC in deep water, guess it will happen later.
While I agree that the UFC should eventually be getting big-name sponsorship, I doubt Dana’s smack talk has anything at all to do with it. We hardcore MMA fans live in a box where MMA is common, standard, and everybody likes it and accepts it, but in fact there is still a very large segment of the American public that perceives MMA as a brutal, barbaric sport. There are very few large companies that don’t have some sort of customer base in that segment. Keeping the customers you already have is much more important than gaining new customers, so no major companies will risk pissing off their prior customers by sponsoring the UFC in a big way.
Dana could talk roses and piss apple pie, and sponsors would still avoid the UFC.
I consider Randy Couture to be the biggest overachiever in the history of MMA. He has consistently beat people that were favored and possessed more skill and talent. His whole career is built on upsets. Isn’t an upset, in essence, overachieving?
Also, Wand v Chuck is still very appealing and should garner a considerable amount of interest.
m1 will fail. fedor and monte found their money marks…. no one can belive this can actually work.
this could be ufcs check mate on mma.
this will be fun to watch.
i hope zack can prove this is a russian mafia front.
“Have you ever seen Coke, Pepsi or Nike sponsor a boxing match? Many top brands have family friendly images and would not associate themselves with any form of combat sports no matter who was the President. And who gives a damn whether big names sponsor MMA or not anyway? Would big name sponsors validate or give credibility to MMA in pop-culture or soceity? Not really. UFC has a profitable business model and that’s what’s important.”
It’s profitable now but whether or not it can maintain long term success remains to be seen. Big name sponsorship, i.e. not a crappy energy drink or malt liquor would be an indication that the UFC is more than a fad and validate as something with staying power.
The argument that the UFC’s violent nature is the reason for the lack of mainstream sponsorship is also unconvincing. The NFL is an incredibly brutal sport people have been paralyzed on national television in the course of playing the game, yet mainstream sponsors flock to promote their wares. The biggest advertising event of the year takes place during an NFL even. If Roger Goodell got on national television and chastised players and asked them if they wanted to be “fucking” football player, many of those sponsors would pull out. Part of the reason that a violent sport like football is where it is today is because the leadership behaved in a professional manner. You may even be right that a major sponsor wouldn’t touch the UFC at this point, however the conduct of Dana White ensures that this won’t happen.
Dana White’s tactics have hurt the UFC in more ways than the lack of mainstream sponsors, however. Look at what his business tactics have done with regard to Randy Couture. He’s walked out on the organization as their champion and left a huge abyss in the HW division again. Way to build and maintain relationships with the talent, DW! The bottom line with that is if you’re running a worthwhile organization your HW champion does not walk out you. That is a huge embarrassment and usually not indicative of a company or organization being led by somebody competent.
Hey, maybe the HW division would be better if White didn’t completely write off top 10 talent because they took responded to obnoxious Dana White comments?
Let’s look at the MW division, their poster boy has been tooled twice by the same guy who doesn’t speak English. The only potential MW’s that immediately come to mind that can beat him are Lindland and Hendo. Hendo is fighting at LHW. Dana White fired Lindland because one of his sponsors was “offensive.” What a good idea. The only potential contender for Silva is Okami who is not an exciting fighter and so if he wins, the UFC will not be in a good place in terms of marketing potential.
One of the most anticipated fights in MMA at this point was Couture v. Fedor and DW could have made it happened. Instead, he could not bother to meet with the actual guy and was stubborn and hypocritical about his terms. Oh yeah, not to mention labeling all of his people as “crazy” excellent bargaining technique.
So let’s review: Under Dana White the UFC has intentionally turned away two top 10 fighters in their respective weight class, their HW champion quit because he was unsatisfied with the treatment he was receiving, and White was unable to sign the most coveted free agent in MMA (Getting beat by an organization run by some dude who produces off broadway shows) and as a result denied one of the most anticipated fights in a long time. And we haven’t even gotten to the fact the lightweight division is up in the air or the whole Pride FC fiasco.
The UFC is a mess and it’s status and success right now has a lot more to do with the incompetence of other people than any actual competence or business acumen of White or Zuffa.
Face it, if Dana White is not a business genius, he’s not even a good businessman. In fact, if he did not have rich friends, he’d probably still be teaching boxercise classes.
Wow, what a completely one-sided analysis of the current status of the UFC. Bravo.
MMA Fan, check out Nick Thompson’s list of available MMA talent for M-1 to sign. It’s more than enough to make them legit.
Do I care about Liddell v Silva? There have only been two bouts in my 16 years of watching MMA that I have been on the edge of my chair over - Crocop v Fedor and this one. Do I wish it happened three or four years ago? Sure. But the result will be the same anyway. Silva via flying mohawk scalp.
I am definitely still interested in this fight.
Sure, it would have been more relevent a year or two ago, but its still a fantastic, fan-friendly style matchup.
If they signed alot of the big name fighters on that list, they have the potential to be something. I still say they are very shady in regards to their financial situation though.
1. The UFC does not have big named sponsors because of their image. They likely won’t have big named sponsors for another 10 years, or until the younger generation is in positions of power in the major companies to be able to do the advertising in a specific direction. Dana White has basically nothing to do with it.
2. The UFC is holding a press conference 30 minutes before Randy Couture’s tomorrow. Typically I would say this is cheap, but Couture fired the first shots, so all is fair….
3. The success of M-1 will not be based on them signing Josh Barnett, Fedor Emelianenko, or any other unknown fighter. They could fill their company with these guys and still get nowhere. Even Randy Couture can’t carry this company because he likely has 1 or 2 fights left in him. To be honest, I’m not sure if there is a fighter out there that can help them at this point.
Let’s talk about UFC’s sponsors for a minute:
Toyo Tire:
Japan’s largest tire manufacturer with over three billion dollars in international annual sales, and a P/E ratio of 17 in their most recent fiscal year (17 is a P/E ratio often associated with a company whose earnings are on a high growth curve).
Mickey’s Fine Malt Liquor:
Did you know that Mickey’s Fine Malt Liquor is one of Miller Brewing Company’s premium brands? Well, now you do. Miller Brewing was the second largest alcoholic beverage manufacturer in the United States last year. They just effectively merged with Molson Coors to create the largest brewing company in the world (it’s actually a very large scale joint venture that will combine their advertising operations and earnings abilities). Quality sponsor? You tell me.
U.S. Army:
Heard of these guys? Did you know that the U.S. Army has an annual marketing budget of $2 Billion per year? Costs money to get volunteers to go to Iraq.
Good Luck Chuck and SAW IV:
Lion’s Gate Entertainment is the world’s largest independent film distributor. Maybe you’ve heard of them.
Xyience:
The much ridiculed bad egg of UFC’s sponsors, they’ve been financially troubled in the recent past.
On October 10th, they announced that they had received $12 million in additional financing from a new group of investors. They simultaneously announced that their UFC sponsorship agreement was extended an additional three years.
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U.S. Army and Lion’s Gate are new sponsors in the last few events. It seems like Lion’s Gate is going to be a regular, and perhaps Army will too (since they’re on the canvas, which is top class ad inventory).
If UFC is having sponsorship troubles, then I’d like to have that kind of problems.
Jeremy,
Yeah, but what about the IFL… They have XBOX which is a Microsoft Company as their sponsor. Forget the fact that they basically pay to get the logo on the mat, but this means IFL>UFC!!!!
Do they pay to get the logo on the mat? No idea.
I doubt that Microsoft pays them much though. Xbox likes to have “partners” for certain sorts of things instead of paying for sponsorships directly. Xbox is part of Microsoft, but it’s a funny sort of relationship…they’re surprisingly independent, and financially they’re more or less on their own, they definitely don’t get an infinite supply of cash from the mothership, that’s for sure.
Similarly, I don’t think THQ pays too much for their ads, which is why I didn’t include them in the list (UFC is running Conan ads on the website, and they had Stuntman Ignition ads on posts at one of the recent numbered shows). THQ is doing the UFC video game, so I presume that cross-promotion is part of their licensing agreement.
I really don’t understand why ANY FIGHTER couldn’t be a big draw. Casual fans have been sold all sorts of uninteresting matches from the ufc for the last couple years. It’s advertising advertising and more advertising. Lots of Joe Rogan and Dana White on the screen yapping it up on ufc countdown.
Selling a badass Fedor should not be a problem to anyone with a pulse. Then again, he could tank like Heath Herring, but I doubt it.
I agree, having Fedor as your only big draw isn’t a smart plan. Even if they add Barnett and some other heavyweights, what about the other divisions? They need to pick up a significant amount of talent fairly quickly. It seems to me unless they suddenly pick up 30-40 fighters suddenly, they won’t be doing very well in their PPV sales.
So wait. After that 1000 word rant, the best you could come up is two fighters that the UFC “turned away?” Let’s review…
When the UFC dropped Lindland, he was widely considered the most boring top ranked fighter around. People seem to forget that Lindland only started to open up a bit more once he got dropped by the UFC. Since Rich Franklin made the UFC much more money than Lindland ever would have, this is actually one of the smarter business moves Zuffa made.
As for Randy, that’s the *ONE* legitimate complaint about White’s questionable tactics and quite frankly, the more I read about Maxell on Sherdog, the more it sounds like Randy was in collusion with M-1 to circumvent his contract with UFC.
Again, where’s the mountain of evidence that proves that Dana’s tactics are doing more harm than good?
The UFC just signed Brock Lesner who will internationally outdraw Fedor on any given Sunday. Yup, the UFC is in totally shambles.
I was going to respond to Bryan’s arguments regarding football, but then I realized he’s a biased fool, so I won’t bother.
yenny: You’re missing the fact that it is the UFC promoting those uninteresting matches. Very few of the hardcore MMA fans recognize the immense drawing power the UFC has because its the UFC. The UFC is very, very, very good at selling the product of the UFC. And its a damn fine product. It kicks the crap out of Pride, EliteXC, and pretty much every other organization that has ever been out there.
Advertising for a single event doesn’t cut it, because when they advertise Silva vs. Lutter, they aren’t advertising the fighters, they’re advertising that it is a UFC event. Other organizations can’t do that. M-1 can advertise their brains out, and if they don’t have the UFC name and image to use, they are going to struggle to sell PPVs.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the sport of MMA is in its infancy. MMA isn’t challenging boxing, it isn’t coming close. The only reason the UFC is doing the numbers they are is because the UFC does a better job with promotion than any other fighting organization or brand in the world.
Not only that, but they can advertise Fedor as being the baddest man on the planet, greatest heavyweight, etc. But how are they going to show this? They’re going to have go back to Rings to find footage to use.
In regard to the sponsor issue, UFC isn’t hurting at all. I know the situation all too well. How do I know, you ask? Well, I sit in the sponsors seats. And let me tell you, they aren’t empty.
Eventually the fact that the Fertitta’s were allegedly into shady activity will eventually come out to the mainstream media and ZUFFA will tank on the same reasons that PRIDE did. This will save MMA as a global sport instead of a US based promotional event.
If the Fertitta’s have plenty to hide, why did they do a reality series about one of their casinos? I don’t even know why I bother sometimes.
Skwirrl, is there anything else that you dream about at night, apart from seeing the UFC crumbling down?
You can’t blame Frank III and Lorenzo for the sins of their father, Frank jr.
Or better yet his “alleged” sins, since he was never convicted, because the prosecutors couldn’t find anything to nail him on. And even if they did - do you really think America would care? I don’t think so. They didn’t care for Sinatras, Bennett’s or Martin’s mob ties. And they didn’t care as much for the John Gotti trial than they did for “Growing up Gotti”.
“But how are they going to show this? They’re going to have go back to Rings to find footage to use.”
His footage vs Nagata would be pretty solid if Inoki was down. Does anyone know the legalities of using still photos? It’s been used recently in a pretty effective manor.
ilostmydog,
Good call. UFC owns his “greatest hits” reel.
“So wait. After that 1000 word rant, the best you could come up is two fighters that the UFC “turned away?” Let’s review…
When the UFC dropped Lindland, he was widely considered the most boring top ranked fighter around. People seem to forget that Lindland only started to open up a bit more once he got dropped by the UFC. Since Rich Franklin made the UFC much more money than Lindland ever would have, this is actually one of the smarter business moves Zuffa made.
As for Randy, that’s the *ONE* legitimate complaint about White’s questionable tactics and quite frankly, the more I read about Maxell on Sherdog, the more it sounds like Randy was in collusion with M-1 to circumvent his contract with UFC.
Again, where’s the mountain of evidence that proves that Dana’s tactics are doing more harm than good?”
Where is your refutation of my “rant?” You’ve ignored most of it and then attempted to argue that getting rid of one of the best fighters in the world was a good move. Especially, in light of the lack of competition in the division.
Maybe you’re right and the guy who has been booed by the UFC retards at every event is so awesome that people will pay hundreds of dollars just to see him beat up scrubs and aren’t interested in actual competition.
Oh wait, that statement is completely ridiculous and devoid of logic.
Kind of like your baseless assertion that Randy Couture was colluding with M-1 all along. Any intuition you gain from reading a Sherdog article is not evidence of anything.
I also have to laugh at your contention that Brock Lesnar is going to be a huge draw. Half of the MMA fans on the internet hate him because he’s a wrestler, half of the wrestling fans hate him because he walked on wrestling organizations and he hasn’t been on WWF tv in like 5 years. Huge draw, right there. Oh wait…
UFC’s main rival in MMA went bankrupt this year and the UFC purchased them. The UFC was on the verge of becoming the NFL of MMA, they were going to simultaneously run the two most powerful MMA organizations in the world have a veritable monopoly on all of the greatest fighters, put on some of the greatest MMA fights in history and give us the most anticipated fight in a long time.
Instead, the UFC botched the Price situation horribly, so that went out the window. They failed to sign elite fighters and allowed them into other organizations, could not even negotiate a contract with one guy who would have enabled them to put one of the most anticipated fights in history. More than that they lost their HW champion.
In the UFC, the HW division is up in the air, the MW division is up in the air since the only legitimate challenger on the roster is fighting at LHW, their LW division is up in the air since their champion is invited in a steroid scandal, their LHW champion is injured and cannot fight until next year. Rashad Evans and Bisping are headlining a ppv, in the Post-Pride era.
Look at that and think of what the UFC could have accomplished if it had competent leadership. Yeah, White is doing a great job.
M1 will have 1 or 2 PPV type events and then disappear as will Fedor…I sincerly believe the Fedor/Couture era is done and we are about to see a new evolution in HW fighters. Bring on 2008.