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Tuesday turmoil: More on UFC 75 and Bisping/Hamill
By Zach Arnold | September 10, 2007
Real live MMA and fighting happening in Ulan Bator, Mongolia. Surely, Jordan Breen is on the case.
K-1 announced Sergey Kharitonov vs. Alistair Overeem and Fabio Silva vs. Melvin Manhoef for their 9/17 Yokohama Arena event. Kharitonov was promoted in Japan today as being associated with Volk Han.
Sports Illustrated has an article claiming that one of the things they learned from UFC 75 is that PRIDE was overrated.
Steroid Nation (a great site) has suggestions about what baseball should do to clean up its doping problems. Any ideas from that post that could apply to the way current drug testing is done in MMA?
Alexander Emelianenko vs. Cabbage Correira set for Calgary on October 19th.
UFC judges Cecil Peoples and Jeff Mullen appeared on Fight Network Radio to defend their scoring in the Matt Hamill vs. Michael Bisping fight. Peoples said that ‘other than those two weak takedowns,’ he ‘saw nothing’ from Hamill in the fight. The only reason Peoples can come up with for the uproar about the judges’ decision is that “people like controversy.” A site commenter labels the PR blitz by the judges as ‘damage control.’ And those of you critical of the decision? Whiners. Who wins the re-match? Dave Meltzer says the ten point must system in MMA has some flaws. Meltzer was formerly a judge at an UFC event.
Even if Bisping’s win was ‘tainted,’ it is fascinating to watch how much publicity and talk amongst both the media and the hardcore fans there is about this match. Rampage vs. Henderson was a quality main event and was marketed as champion vs. champion, and yet here we are talking about another fight on that show. UFC is noticing this and MMA Analyst looks at the fight with an empirical look.
“In a very short time the IFL has shown that they have created an all encompassing business model that is very attractive to sponsors, fans and the media, and we are very excited to help them grow their model and the sport of Mixed Martial Arts,” said Randy Bernstein, Premier president and CEO.
Stephen Brunt in The Globe and Mail comparing the violence in the NFL to violence in MMA:
Even mixed martial arts, which has offended all kinds of folks and inspired all kinds of horrified commentary, is as safe as solitaire compared to football. There’s plenty of blood, but the bouts are stopped quickly, and fighters can surrender honourably. No one in mixed martial arts is going to be concussed, then sent right back out to be immediately concussed again.
I found this interesting article on Karl Gotch and thought it might be of interest to some of the readers.
Op-ed: UFC influences men to get in fights.
Onto today’s headlines.
- UFC HP: Wilson Gouveia injured, forced to withdraw from UFC 76 bout
- Sherdog radio: Nick Diaz uncensored
- The Fight Network: Joe Riggs vs. Eugene Jackson set for Strikeforce 9/29 Playboy Mansion event
- MMA Weekly: The latest with Ed Fishman
- Fightlinker: Why won’t anyone hold judges accountable?
- TMZ: Tito Ortiz – Damn! I get to hit that every day!
- The Sun (UK): Bisping booed after Hamill win
- The Del Rio News-Herald (TX): MMA fights headed to Del Rio Civic Center
- MMA Man: Upcoming MMA events in Japan
- Radio (Eddie Goldman): Interview with Phyllis Lee
- The Fightworks Podcast: Randy Couture’s new book Wrestling for Fighting
Topics: HERO's, IFL, Japan, K-1, Media, MMA, PRIDE, Pro-Wrestling, UFC, UK, Zach Arnold | 92 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Well, Colin Oyama, Quinton’s first trainer was a Muay Thai guy. But I don’t think MT was ever his (Rampage’s) forte. He was more of a brawler/ground & pound guy in his early days.
His knees are still pretty evident in his training, from what I saw. I will say he didn’t show much of it in the fight.
Well, I won’t argue anymore about Randy “The Third Rail” Couture, since obviously I won’t be convincing anyone soon of anything anytime soon. But going from looking terrible in beating 205-lb Van Arsdale to dominating 255-lb grappling champion Gonzaga looks suspicious to me.
Van Arsdale was an elite free style wrestler. Gonzaga is not an elite freestyle or greco roman wrestler by any stretch of the imagination. VAn Arsdale’s skillset matches up much better to Randy’s than does Gonzaga once the fight is in close.
Van Arsdale got finished by Lindland and Babalu much quicker than by Couture. He’s not an elite MMA fighter by any means.
Quinton isn’t a Muay Thai fighter, in fact its MT fighters that have shown to be his kryptonite. Wand, Shogun, and Ninja (who many thought was robbed in that fight.)
Typical Hardcore fans. Complaining about the stupid issues and getting all angry, while the UFC had it’s best ratings ever for a big show. This should be a happy time. All is well in the world of the UFC.
A quick blurb on Couture and drug use. If Couture was a user, he would be having some major joint issues. Look at all the steroid and HGH users from Pro Wrestling, MLB, and the NHL. When they make it to their 40’s, their joints are shot. Why? Because they added more muscles then their bodies could handle. And yet Couture has seemingly perfect joints. This is a very good indication that he is just a genetic freak and not a drug user. And he has slowed down incredibly. He is just smarter on how he fights. Instead of going all out for a takedown, he works the clinch against the fence. He is using brains over braun at this time.
That doesn’t prove he isn’t a Muay Thai fighter at all, just because Muay Thai fighters completely dominate you in a few choice fights. Quinton’s base is definitely Muay Thai. I will say my original statement didn’t clarify that. He does have Muay Thai aspects, but his clinch tactics have always signaled his Muay Thai skills with his knees, although I will agree that lately, he is much more a striking/gnp type of fighter nowadays.
I will say that with the addition of his ju-jitsu that he is now touting, I would say overall he is just generally a very good fighter with a vastly increasing skillset of MMA skills.
I’m a swede living in asia, and I have no preference on the fighters. I’ve also been a fan since the early first ufc’s and I do train a (little) bit.
When I watched the fight the first time, I was as stunned of the decision as anyone – I couldn’t believe it. However, today I read the judges reasons, rewatched the second round (in general, everyone seems to agree rd1 to hamill, rd3 to bisping).
I have to say I changed my opinion and I can agree with giving it to Bisping. Yes, he backpedals most of the round (and looks scared and weak, while Hamill advances fearlessly like the terminator), but Bispings counterpunches connect way more than Hamill’s (which ALL of them misses, look again!). Yes, Hamill gets two takedowns, neither is very impressive and he does nothing with them (except a few weak punches) while Bisping does have the fairly active guard AND gets up and stands up after both (which should nullify some of the “benefit” of the takedown in a scoring system).
Actually it is kinda relieving that this is not yet another bout that is decided by the wrestlers ability to just score a takedown and human-blanket the fighter from the top (which has ruined far more fights on the scoring card!). So in retrospect I have to say I am pleased with the two judges decision to give round 2 to Bisping. I can’t see anything besides octagon control and 2 crappy takedowns in favor of Hamill.
I think people’s perception of the bout has been clouded by the commentators and Bispings and Hamills body language, props to the judges for NOT falling for that or the takedowns. Unfortunately, too many UFC fights in the past has been decided on the takedown issue giving much advantage to purebred wrestlers. What crap the british judge was on scoring all three rounds for Hamill I have no clue…
This does not change the fact that Bisping’s ungracious comments and attitude put me off him (he was lucky to survive it) and that Hamill gained me as a new fan due to his heart, his fearlessness and graciousness in defeat (even though I agree he lost).
Actually, I might add that the 10-9 scoring system is probably what killed this bout. Hamill destroyed Bisping in rd1, but round 2 was VERY close with an edge to Bisping (still looking like shit) for inflicted damage and actually connecting with punches (all of Hamill’s miss really). Then Bisping barely won rd3 while looking crap again. Hamill looked calm, confident and fearless throughout – he just didn’t connect.
If the fight was judged as a whole, Hamill would be the winner. If it was a bit easier to get 10-8 rounds, it would probably be a draw. If draw rounds were possible, it would possibly have been a draw, unless 10-8 was easier and it should have been a Hamill victory again.
Unfortunately, the boring boxing scoring system is in effect and ruined the fight. Screw Bisping for being such an arrogant dick. I actually liked him before this and on TUF3, but now he’s lost all my respect – though according TO THE RULES he won the fight. Hamill is the moral winner however.
Time to change the system…
Van Arsdale got finished by Lindland and Babalu much quicker than by Couture. He’s not an elite MMA fighter by any means.
Who said he was? Styles make fights. Not only that, Lindland had the Couture fight to work off of in terms of preparation, along with an even older version of Van Arsdale. Way to argue a point that wasn’t made.
Amazing rating for 75. Are there any details out on the quarter hours yet?
“That doesn’t prove he isn’t a Muay Thai fighter at all, just because Muay Thai fighters completely dominate you in a few choice fights. Quinton’s base is definitely Muay Thai. I will say my original statement didn’t clarify that”
Isn’t his defense more Muay Chaiya?
# dice Says:
September 11th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Yeah but then what happened after that? This may be the worst argument I have ever seen trying to make the case for jackson to be considered more of a UFC fighter than Pride. Because your leaving out some of the facts, such as the UFC didn’t want him enough to sign him either. He was picked up by the WFA. And actually he was under the WFA contract for his first two UFC fights. Nice try though
=====
Actually you misunderstood, but it’s my fault for not putting it into proper sentences or whatever (more on that later), I like to point out though that UFC tried to sign Rampage, but WFA offered more money. Of course we know what happend afterwards.
And what I ment is….well when I read that quote (I didn’t read the article, lol) I thought the bloke who wrote it ment that Rampage should be considered a UFC fighter instead of a PRIDE fighter for now. True he got his fame in PRIDE, but like I said, PRIDE wanted him gone, and even Rampage himself said it. What I ment is to consider a UFC fighter from now on instead of a PRIDE fighter fighting in the UFC. Cause that’s what a lot of people are still viewing him as. One of the fighters holding up the “PRIDE” legacy. Well he isin’t do that from what I saw.
Yeah, great ratings for the UFC.
I expected only half of that, but it definitely exceeded anyone’s expectations.
You don’t need to point out that WFA offered him more money. That is implied when I said “the UFC didn’t want him enough to sign him either”. The UFC could have easily outbid the WFA for his services and chose not to. They have a tendency to offer fighters much less money in hopes that the fighter will still sign because they will make themselves more marketable in the future.
The UFC vs Pride argument should be looked at this way. Take the roster they each had in say 2005 or 2006, and compare how well the fighters on these rosters have done against eachother. Pride had a much larger and more international roster, and in my opinion a much better roster. Saying that this(hendo/rampage) was a Pride vs UFC matchup is crazy (not that you are, but I am talking generally here). Its makes zero sense and anyone who has followed mma knows that hendo vs rampage was 2 former fighters who made their careers in Pride, not the UFC. I personally have lost interest in this debate as the UFC has pretty much signed everyone now.
And actually now that you clarified your statement, it looks like we agree. I don’t think anyone fighting the UFC should be considered a Pride fighter since the org is now defunct. I do however understand someone who wants to state that Rampage is a Pride fighter, seeing as how he made his career there.(meaning I can see their argument, I just feel like it doesn’t really matter anymore)
“A quick blurb on Couture and drug use. If Couture was a user, he would be having some major joint issues. Look at all the steroid and HGH users from Pro Wrestling, MLB, and the NHL. When they make it to their 40’s, their joints are shot. Why? Because they added more muscles then their bodies could handle. And yet Couture has seemingly perfect joints.”
(A) The whole point of HGH is that it gives someone the ability to build and maintain lean muscle mass without the intense training regimes, while cutting body fat levels as well.
Also: HGH is responsible for growth during childhood — and for the repair and regeneration of human tissue throughout our lives. By the time we reach the age of 30, our HGH levels are only about 20 percent of their peak levels during childhood, and after the age of 30, they continue to decline at about 14 percent per decade. By the time most of us are 30 years old, our bodies no longer produce enough HGH to repair all of the damage that is occurring in our bodies. As our HGH levels continue to decline, the damage that we call aging continues to accelerate.
Thus by using HGH one would actually be combating the effects of “wear and tear” – your so called trump card against use of PED.
(B) It’s a likely possibility the PED use is only recent – say the last 3 years and thus the person isn’t having the built up effect of years and years of steroid ABUSE.
(C) Your perfect joints argument is beyond stupid – maybe he DOES have the frame to hold that size, but because he’s older he’s doesn’t have the hormone levels to produce that amount of bulk. Use of steroids/HGH – viola.
You see 45 – I have something on my side of the argument, its called physiology and science. You have “fantasy” and “he’s a freak of nature”…
Everyone who’s met Randy Couture has said that he’s the nicest person. Does that sound like a roid-head to you? Barry Bonds fit that image because he’s a jerk… typical roid-head.
Couture is the last MMA fighter anyone would think capable of benoiting himself. ‘Sorry, tasteless, but I can’t help it.
Good point, Cyphron. Instead of drug testing, I say from now on we just judge people on personality. Couture is obviously clean. Yvel is obviously not.
*Please Note:
I really, really, really don’t believe Couture is on anything. I’m merely playing devil’s advocate…the guy seems like a legitimate amazing individual – both as a person and as an athlete. And cheating would seem to go against everything the guy stands for.
I was just pointing out some scientific information and the fact that it is an anomaly – he really just is a freak of nature and someone who takes the fight biz that seriously.
I won’t say anything else about him and especially on that type of matter, b/c it just cheapens all of his accomplishments – the guy really is a role model for a lot of people (or should be).
But it’s pretty shitty that people would and can cheapen a fighter’s accomplishments by making unfounded statements a fighter using PEDs. Is it also that hard to believe someone like Shogun (24) or Silva (30) is incapable of being in the condition they are b/c they also take the sport seriously and train their asses off? I think not…but I hope I proved my point.
Zack,
Couture is obviously clean because he passed his drug test. I just used his personality as further evidence to support it. Even though there is no reason to. If he’s clean, he’s clean.
Your sarcasm would be more effective if my original point was off.
HGH would also increase the size of his body organs and make him have all types of medical issues.
And what you are posting is the medical benefits. The medical issues involved with a fighter taking HGH far outweighs those positives.
Besides… you do realize that one of the key side effects of HGH is joint pain…. Don’t you?
Long term ABUSE – yes. But what would your point then be? Large organs? What does that have to do with magical joints? There could be many of side effects that aren’t discovered until later down the road…I’m quite sure you’re right that the negative > positive. It still doesn’t support any of your argument.
There is some research that has shown therapeutic use of HGH (and testosterone) may actually be beneficial.
Who said I was being sarcastic?
Gaijin, you may call it “cheapening”, I call it “being realistic”. Anyway, it’s not my intention of cheapening anyone or anything, since I just think it is a fact of life that high level athletes can and do abuse performance enhancing drugs. Quite often, as a matter of fact. The arguments that everyone is using about Couture are the same ones fans used to defend Barry Bonds before he got caught.
Outside of Sakuraba, Shogun and Wanderlei are my favorite fighters and I do suspect they have used in the past. But like I said earlier, I also see nothing morally wrong with taking them. Plus, it’s not like you take the stuff and you become some superman. You still have to train your asses off. What Couture has done, drugs or not, is still amazing just as I think what Barry Bonds has achieved is still amazing. Bonds might be a dick, but he still belongs in the HOF, IMO.
MMA is a high level sport, and I think it is incredibly naive for anyone to say that only people who have tested positive are the ones who abuse. NFL, MLB, NHL, cycling, track and field, swimming. Many positive tests. Even steroid abuse in the PGA has been intimated recently. MMA, many positive tests, and several fighters have come out and admitted that there are many fighters who use. Is it that silly to think that Couture who against Van Arsdale barely looked like he could finish the anaconda due to exhaustion, much less the fight itself, might now be using? Just because he’s “The Natural” and because he’s a freak of nature and everyone loves him? Please.
Sure, sometimes it’s the obvious guys like Sherk that get caught. Just like it doesn’t take a genius to figure that Giambi and Canseco were using. But sometimes, it’s also the not so obvious guys. Like Rafael Palmiero. Everyone loved the guy. Didn’t seem like a user, just seemed like a hard working 40 yr old who hit 500 HRs. Or Barry Bonds: the “freak of nature”.
I have never seen anything that says HGH can be beneficial to older adults. I know steroids in the correct dosages can have health benefits, but I have yet to see anything that says the same thing about HGH.
The biggest problem is that Couture has shown none of the side effects. And HGH after even a short usage can start to trigger these side effects. Not just from abuse or long term use…..
1. Joint problems = 0
2. Increased bone structure = 0 He doesn’t have an HGH jaw or had increasing shoe sizes like Bonds.
3. Enlarged heart = 0 We could tell with cardio…. An enlarged heart requires more oxygen, which would go completely against Couture’s crazy cardio that he exhibits for an old man.
Basically, even the words Couture & HGH in the same sentence is just BS at this point….
BTW, is it time yet to mention that the talk about “UGH UFC CAN’T PROMOTE THIS WILL FAIL DE LA HOYA/MAYWEATHER HYPE IT” was pretty dumb and nowhere near accurate? In retrospect, that talking point was more retarded than “Pride’s 2nd US show won’t do have more than 5,000 in the seats.”
I’ve never met someone with more of a boner over joints!!! What is up with that??
That’s the ONLY argument I’ve ever seen you adduce. Besides ignoring the fact that a 44 year old man added ~20+lbs of muscle in ~12 months…
Fighters fight in pain all the time – you’re telling me the great reason to show someone isn’t on HGH is it causes joint pain?
You’re too fuckin hilarious.
“I have never seen anything that says HGH can be beneficial to older adults. I know steroids in the correct dosages can have health benefits, but I have yet to see anything that says the same thing about HGH.”
Actually it’s been a huge part of the experimental therapeutic treatments for aging. Decreases the loss of muscle mass (can cause increases), lowers body fat (esp. abdominal and visceral), aids in slowing osteoporosis…
I don’t know what you’ve been reading…but you’re definitely incorrect. In fact Stanford just published a study this year about its benefits for older adults.
D. Capitated, LOL. It’s the Fight Opinion Echo Chamber hard at work. I will say this: Zuffa did a bang-up job of UFC 75 (even though my guy CC totally sucked ass). Also, the last two WEC events have totally rocked.
Sorry – I used to have a password for lots of sites on medical studies…I’d be able to provide you more details, studies if I could find it.
Okay, you don’t like the joints…. But what about the increased bone mass and enlarged heart with less cardio….. No answer for those….
Couture didn’t pack on 20 lbs of muscle, stop smoking Gaijin, the dude was huge in between fights at 205 and today he doesn’t weigh anymore than he did when began his career at HW.
Sorry – just read up on the rest of the Stanford research (only picked thru the abstract before).
It was good for increases in muscle mass for elderly patients…but little else. So that study is really no good, however this isn’t exactly the right “population” I was looking for anyways.
Anyways, as I said: I don’t believe in any way that he’s using any PED’s. So I’m not going to continue to argue for a point I don’t really believe and continue to smear the dude’s good name. (I’m sure he’s worried about being smeared on some message board)
Kudos to the UFC for the ratings btw…thats some awesome stuff!
I guess Hendo was right, “the fans know who he is”.
The UFC is just really big. I knew about 15 different groups of people who were heading to different house parties to get drunk and watch the show. They were like “It’s a fucking 40$ card for free”
45!!! I just came to an amazing epiphany…there’s something we can agree on. I know that I believe it to be true and you have to based on the arguements you’ve made today.
Wanderlei Silva – is clearly clean and cannot possibly be accused of using steroids.
A fighter who’s been competing professionally for over a decade and is 30+ years of age and averaged ~4/year:
1.) no major injuries (muscle tears, tendons melting, joints falling apart);
2.) no joint paint;
3.) no increased bone structure – no Bonds head or mongoloid jaw (he’s looked the same since he started in IVC);
4.) No enlarged heart – some of the best cardio in the business;
5.) NEVER tested positive for any performance enhancing drugs.
You’ve got to agree with me on this, the evidence is all there – so I never want to hear anyone utter HGH/Steroids and Silva (especially you – but you won’t since we agree) b/c that would be complete BS at this point. 🙂
I rewatched Bisping/Hamill AGAIN. I think the biggest failure is the UFC Camera work during the fight.
To their defense, both Hamill & Bisping were turning at an incredibly fast rate and the camera’s had a hard time keeping up with them.
However, at least 10 of bisping’s jabs were basically hidden from the camera. Yes, you could tell he was throwing it, but because we had the view of the back of hamill’s head, it appears like nothing came of those jabs.
i can see where Jeff Mullen is coming from with what he said… That is for sure.
^ Come on man.
The decision was a terrible one…you can stop trying to justify it for them. Bad decisions happen, the judges were likely swayed by the fact that it was a hometown guy fighting etc.
The fact that these guys are going out and explaining themselves to whoever will listen just reeks of damage control.
I’m telling you…. Watch it closely…. In the first minute of the round, there are at least 3 or 4 Bisping jabs that start to be thrown during one camera angle and then are finished on another one. Because of the quick switch, it makes it look like not much happened. Later in the round, there were a bunch of jabs with Hamill’s back of his head showing, making the appearance that nothing really hit.
When you watch it with those things in mind, it is easy to see how two judges thought that round was for Bisping. How the ref thought Bisping won. That Rogan didn’t think anything different of the decision. They didn’t have to worry about those weird camera cuts. They could see what was happening.
And as many faults as Rogan has, he will call a stinker for a stinker, and he didn’t even acknowledge anything….
I don’t doubt that Bisping landed jabs, I’m sure that he did and some were missed. But really – his defensive jabbing while backpedalling, running away, stumbling into the fence and getting wobbled don’t really count for much for me. If he was using the jab and establishing control of the octagon that’s one thing – but he was doing it purely defensively up until the 3rd round. Not to mention that most of his jabs were hitting arms, gloves and glancing away – those don’t count.
Hamill was completely controlling the octagon in the first and second round. I fully give the 3rd round to Bisping (close but Hamill gassed and didn’t really do much) but until then Hamill, in my opinion, was winning based on all judging criteria.
I agree that its different being there live, but I’m sure being there live is just as easily subject to the bias of judging the hometown fighter as well. Again, I’m not blaming the decision on Zuffa, just poor judging that seemed to be watching the wrong fight.
On a side note:
I for one like Rogan. As big of a dick as he is and his annoying, over zealous “world class”-shilling (the hype show was ridiculous – it should be a drinking game!), he’s genuinely passionate about the sport, he’s pretty educated and he keeps a good flow. Get rid of Goldberg and bring in Quadros or someone else – thats the flawed one.
If you go back and watch any fight, I’m sure you can score it for either guy. Bottom line is its damage control. How many close or semi-controversial decisions are we going to have to accept before the judging criteria is either made more apparent or changed?
UFC has always seemed to judge fights based on who is pushing the pace. If it’s going to change now and be based on point striking or something else, will all other fights be judged the same way? What happens in a fight like BJ vs GSP or Tito vs Vitor? Or what about retarded fights like Kongo vs Marrero or Hughes vs Chaturo where the entire fight is based on top control?
There needs to be a consistency where judges or the organization outlines how fights are going to be scored. At the end of a fight, the hardcore fans, and in most cases the casual fans should know for sure who won. If not, what’s the point?