What relevance does Mark Kerr’s sad state today have on ANYTHING I said?!??? I was pointing out the fact that Fujita went to town on Kerr, who at that time was one of the most dominating HW’s in the sport. But clearly your pea-brain had little ability to process that one. The imagination it must take to think that the Tito today is anywhere near as dominating a wrestler/mma fighter than Mark Kerr circa 2000 (when Fujita beat him) must be WILD.

2.) “Well, he’d have beaten a D1 Big 10 wrestler with Evans if he hadn’t grabbed the fense. You should also look up Matyushenko’s background.”

So then your answer would be??? NONE. Look how ridiculous you are – you try to make a claim, it gets completely shown to be B.S. and you still cannot admit it. I wish I could live in your dreamworld.

3.) “Tito’s great g’n’p stoppages were against guys like Kondo, Bohlander, Albritton, Sinosic and Tanner. That’s it!…The same types of fighters you criticize Silva for fighting.

What about that win over Silva? ”

That was a g’n'p stoppage eh?? Hmmm…not only can you not read, nor concede to issues where you’re obviously wrong, but now you can reinvent results of fights. B/c I was pretty sure it was a pathetic lay’n'pray snoozer that would never be allowed to go for that long with absolutely no action again. Can you imagine if that fight was in the US and not in Japan where they’re too respectful to lynch such a terrible fight?

4.) “Well, you’re a little biased it seems, so what we’re “willing to admit” and your vision of reality are likely separate things. No one’s saying he didn’t beat anyone (though Nakamura’s inclusion into this list is really pushing it), but the idea that he was dominant over the best fighters and that Tito is awful and so forth is ridiculous. You credit him for a win over Henderson years before he dropped to a proper weight of 185, and say nothing about what’s happened recently, where Henderson KOed Silva after having lost his last fight at 185. So I get where you’re going. You make it clear. You’re willing to accept the results of fights 6 years ago when they suit you, but not when they suit you, and you really like Japan a lot.”

Tito’s had wins against exactly how many “elite opponents” in the time since he’s fought Silva? None – would that sound about right?…Any time he’s fought a guy that would be considered Top 10 (Liddell and Couture) he’s gotten absolutely embarassed. But he has managed to put up an impressive runs of decision wins over Patrick Cote (non-top 10 185′er), Forrest Griffin and Belfort and of course 3 “impressive” wins over Ken Shamrock (I think enough has been said on that matter).

And Silva’s pretty much done nothing right? A real over-hyped and overrated can-opener. Rampage x 2, Henderson, Nakamura, Arona. Yes Silva did lose to Henderson – who you seem to also conveniently forget was coming off a very dominant win at 205 over someone that Tito barely squeaked out a decision over. But of course Henderson’s a small 205′er who outside of a loss to Silva and Lil Nog at 205 was very successful as a 205er but he immediately makes Silva a bum b/c Henderson can move down to 185.

You must really love Dana.

Because its horribly slanted. You’re starting with the assumption that PRIDE > better under all circumstances. Thus, Ortiz losing to Couture and Liddell is damning in your eyes, because neither one could concievably beat anyone in PRIDE except perhaps a Minowa. You use the A>B=A>C argument, which is ridiculous in discussing any fighting sport. Hell, as I said earlier: It takes balls to go talking about how a 1-1 Mark Hunt who 6 months earlier was easily defeated by Yoshida shouldn’t count against Wanderlei, while losses to Liddell and Couture prove Tito’s relative non-value to the sport.

I haven’t gone back and watched Tito’s earlier fights lately, but he didn’t look that impressive to me at UFC73. The Sacramento crowd was pretty harsh most of the night, but I was fully with them when they booed him after the fight, it was … ugh.

If that had been the extent of it, maybe it would have passed, but the idea of watching a rematch between those two guys just turned my stomach. I guess Tito has some kind of appeal to a lot of people out there, but I’m not feeling either the love or the hate, I’m just feeling tired of it. I’d like to move on.

- This just sums it up, really. No, we shouldn’t turn around the decisions based on what they say, you’re right. But you obviously think decisions should be changed bacause of what YOU perceive, which is every bit as absurd. Tito beat Griffin, and Tito beat Belfort. Neither fight strikes me as being a robbery of any kind.

I don’t think Tito would beat Wand today either, but some of these arguments are just ridiculous.

This is typical D. Capitated. Why did you reply to my point with that attack again? What’s the point of a debate if you can never ever see the opponent’s point of view? You are always right and everyone is wrong. That is typical of all debates that start with you. I have admitted that we don’t see eye to eye with the boxing thing because you’re a boxing fan and have let it go. But I’m beginning to think that you want to ALWAYS win the debate and ALWAYS have to have the last words regardless of the FACTS.

Silva fought more often than Ortiz with opponents that are elite and out of his weight class. That is the Pride management fault, not his. When you fight heavyweights and more often, you will lose. Any non-fans would see that based on both their win-loss records and the opponents that they have both fought. It’s there. I am a UFC fan and can even see that.

It’s not Silva’s fault that Sakuraba got old and run down fighting everyone on the planet, it’s not Silva’s fault Kondo got old.

So then Tito gets respect for beating Kondo first and doing so faster? Sakuraba, on the other hand, should have fought at 185. He was never going to be a match for Silva ever.

It’s not Fujita’s fault Shamrock got old as hell – let alone the fact that as much as you try to run down Fujita’s abilities he completely outwrestled Mark Kerr, who was lightyears better a wrestler and mma fighter than Tito – with far more success.

The imagination that it takes for a 36 year old Ken Shamrock to be very different than a 38 year old one as a proper counter to comparing a 31 year old fighter to a 37 year old alcoholic who’s barely competed, or to bring up Mark Kerr in any sense, must be wild.

Tito got GIFT decisions against Forrest Griffin AND Belfort in order to set up the box-office dream rematch with Chuck. For christsakes – are you that biased?

You clearly are if you think Griffin and Belfort were obviously and clearly the winners.

Please tell me what “international level wrestlers” Tito’s taken down and pounded?

Well, he’d have beaten a D1 Big 10 wrestler with Evans if he hadn’t grabbed the fense. You should also look up Matyushenko’s background.

Tito’s great g’n’p stoppages were against guys like Kondo, Bohlander, Albritton, Sinosic and Tanner. That’s it!…The same types of fighters you criticize Silva for fighting.

What about that win over Silva?

It’s really nice that you point out how Silva’s fought “cans” and then ignore the fact that he’s got wins over Henderson, Rampage x 2, Sakuraba at his absolute peak, Arona (in a far more clear cut decision than either you or 45 would ever dream of admitting), Nakamura etc.

Well, you’re a little biased it seems, so what we’re “willing to admit” and your vision of reality are likely separate things. No one’s saying he didn’t beat anyone (though Nakamura’s inclusion into this list is really pushing it), but the idea that he was dominant over the best fighters and that Tito is awful and so forth is ridiculous. You credit him for a win over Henderson years before he dropped to a proper weight of 185, and say nothing about what’s happened recently, where Henderson KOed Silva after having lost his last fight at 185. So I get where you’re going. You make it clear. You’re willing to accept the results of fights 6 years ago when they suit you, but not when they suit you, and you really like Japan a lot.

Tito doesn’t belong in the top 10 sorry…he couldn’t even get past Evans. Sorry – you’re right…at one point he was “World Class”…now he’s not. I don’t think it takes to be a stretch of logic nor extrapolation of past performances of the past 6-7 years to figure this out. Honestly, is it that difficult? I wish I could believe you’re playing devil’s advocate but then again I know you’d be heart broken to admit one of the UFC’s more dominant LHW champs in their history was a total paper champ.

Seriously, why are you even defending him? He’s proven to be a chicken-shit, loud mouth who runs from any real fights (Cotoure, Liddell) and acts like a bully where he knows/thinks he can win. But his pro wrestling act has people like you actually buying him as a legit fighter…sheesh.

Tito Ortiz is still World Class. I wouldn’t rank him Top 5, but he is most certainly Top 10. I would say anywhere between #6 and #8 in the world is the proper ranking for him.