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The value of records

By Tomer Chen | February 17, 2007

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By Tomer Chen

The name of Rocky Marciano invariably brings up his record: 49-0 with 43 KOs. After all, Rocky is the only World Champion in Boxing history to ever retire with such a high record without any losses or draws to ‘mar’ it. True, there have been numerous champions who won more bouts than Marciano (such as Willie Pep and Julio Cesar Chavez), but ultimately they lost and their aura of invincibility disintegrated. There are also fighters such as Jimmy Barry and Ricardo Lopez who retired undefeated with more wins than Marciano, but had draws on their records, which have reduced the impact of their wins superceding Marciano’s. And, of course, there are a number of other greats who had overall more impressive resumes than Marciano while losing (such as ‘Sugar’ Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong & Muhammad Ali). So, the question invariably becomes: Why does everyone dream of being the next Marciano? What is the value of a great record?

There are a number of answers to the question. One aspect is the public’s perception of wins and losses in combat sports. Fans, after all, love winners and usually root for those that show they are worthy of the respect of the fans through their successes. The young Mike Tyson, for example, became a media darling within one year of his professional debut as a fighter, appearing on the January 1986 cover of Sports Illustrated magazine with the nickname “Kid Dynamite” as he stopped every opponent he was placed in with in devastating fashion for his first 19 bouts, conjuring up images of such destructive past Heavyweights as Joe Louis, George Foreman and Earnie Shavers. It was not just the fact that he was an undefeated prospect, but the fact that as a prospect he was mowing down everyone that was placed in with him, even if it sometimes took a bit longer as the opponents would fight to survive. A modern version of a Tyson-style hyped fighter is Edwin Valero (with 21 KOs in 21 wins), although he has two things working against him to prevent the same hype that Tyson got: (i) he is not an American fighter (he’s Venezuelan) and (ii) he fights at Junior Lightweight, not the flagship Heavyweight division. On the other hand, the current generally regarded #1 P4P (Pound-4-Pound) fighter in the world, Floyd Mayweather Jr., is also undefeated (37-0 with 24 KOs), but unlike Valero and Tyson before him, there is little mystique about Mayweather beyond his great Boxing skills and agility (even as he bloats up in weight). Whereas Tyson was on Sports Illustrated’s cover as the new force to watch based on his demolition of opponents, Floyd has managed to convincingly win against virtually everyone he every faced (besides his two wars with Jose Luis Castillo), but often showed (i) the lack of finishing power and (ii) a preference to win decisively rather than in a crowd pleasing manner. It should be noted, however, that he did batter a number of quality guys into submission (most notably Diego Corrales and Arturo Gatti), but it was in one sided contests rather than wars of attrition that the fans love such as ‘Sugar’ Ray Leonard-Thomas Hearns I, Rocky Marciano-‘Jersey’ Joe Walcott I or Muhammad Ali-Joe Frazier I & III (all of which were labeled as Ring Magazine Fight of the Year). In addition, he has often been promoted as arrogant, but not in the “I’m the best and I’ll prove it every single time!” manner of a Muhammad Ali, but more in the “I’m the most talented guy out there, and you’ll be happy with whoever I fight, even if he’s not P4P the best!” style. Floyd is often criticized for having taken less than great matchups in recent years, taking on opponents like Henry Bruseles and Sharmba Mitchell instead of Ricky Hatton, Miguel Angel Cotto and Antonio Margarito, which would have helped solidified his legacy some more. In addition, claims that he will retire following the Oscar De La Hoya bout on 5/5 also have hurt his public image, given that he’s rather young (30 in a week) and still has a list of quality fighters he could take on, win or lose.

Of course, there are plenty of examples where fighters did not win every contest they participated in, yet became significant drawing cards, such as Arturo Gatti, Beau Jack and Oscar De La Hoya. However, in the case of Gatti and Jack, their ‘never say die’ attitude in the ring and the relentless style they pursued were what allowed them to do huge business in their eras (Gatti in the late 90s and early 00s at the Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City, NJ while Jack fought in the 30s and 40s primarily at Madison Square Garden in New York City) while fighters like Oscar De La Hoya and ‘Sugar’ Ray Leonard drew heavily from their natural talents and charisma to make huge business. Gatti, however, is a somewhat bizarre case, as he has lost a good deal, losing to all the A level fighters he ever met as well as some B and C level fighters such as Micky Ward and Ivan Robinson. The manner that he typically lost in, however, were exciting give and take brawls where both parties dished out punishment to the other and never gave in (Gatti, in fact, won 4 Ring Magazine Fight of the Year awards: 1997 (vs. Gabriel Ruelas), 1998 (vs. Ivan Robinson I), 2002 (vs. Micky Ward I) and 2003 (vs. Micky Ward III) – he was 2-2 in those bouts, beating Ruelas and Ward, but losing to Robinson and Ward), which overcame the fact that as a fighter he was probably a B level fighter at his best (and really, his best left him very susceptible to cuts and bombs landing). In this regard, the fans ignored the record of Gatti and his true skill level because of his bloods and guts fighting style that is really what most Boxing fans want to see, even if some may publicly blast the almost reckless style that tends to run counter to claim that the sport is ‘The Sweet Science’. 

Another aspect of the record is the fact that being undefeated means that in X contests, no one has been able to best you either by stopping you or getting the nod from the judges. Of course, there are cases where guys with perfect (or near perfect) records have simply been filling up on the so-called ‘losers for hire’ or ‘tankers’ in states with little to no to little state athletic control such as Oklahoma, Arkansas, Alabama, Tennessee & Missouri. As described in Jim Brady’s Boxing Confidential (in the chapters titled ‘Tankers’ & ‘The Thrill of Defeat’), fighters in the less regulated states tended have the opportunity to fight multiple times (and even got stopped multiple times in a row) due to poor research on the commission’s behalf as well as the fighters taking aliases (a practice that was employed by Oklahoma promoter Pat O’Grady) and padding their own records by fighting the same opponents under various aliases in order to make each other’s main records look good. Peter McNeeley, a Tyson victim who entered the ring with a record of 36-1, had pretty much padded his way in Massachusetts and Arkansas to get a ‘legitimate’ record entering the ring that night, where he was thrashed and was mercifully DQd by his manager to stop the onslaught (he was dropped twice quickly).

It is not unexpected that the first few fights of a fighter’s career will be up against minimal opposition, but in today’s Boxing game, it is not shocking to see a ‘prospect’ go 20-30 fights against opponents who barely pass the .500 win/loss average, if that. Even the man at Heavyweight who is currently closest to topping Marciano’s 49-0 record, Nikolay Valuev, with his 46-0 (34 KOs) record has only really ‘stepped up’ (and the term is pretty liberally applied) the quality of his competition in his last 5 or so fights. The two best fighters he faced from the bunch (John Ruiz and Larry Donald) also gave Valuev fits and it seemed as though his hometown advantage of fighting in Germany that gave him the nod in both of those fights. It should be noted, however, that Valuev is not so much propped up by the promoters and managers in regards to his seemingly impressive (on paper) record, but rather his freakish size and appearance (most people seem to associate him with the Neanderthals in terms of facial structure), a 21st century Primo Carnera (without the Mafia control). It is generally understood that he will likely face a Wladimir Klitschko or Samuel Peter (who is supposed to face Oleg Maskaev for the WBC Heavyweight belt as he became his mandatory) eventually to help unify the 4 ‘big’ heavyweight belts (IBF, WBA, WBC & WBO) and will more than likely be thrashed. In a way, the fact that Valuev’s handlers were able to build up his record with so many soft touches and a few decent threats that he got by in order to set up a huge money fight is another reason people gun towards a record like Marciano’s.

On a slight tangent to this discussion point, I would like to express my personal belief that the state athletic commissions, as a whole, need to tighten up with regards to the contests that they authorize between fighters. As an example, the recent WEC 25 main event between “Razor” Rob McCullough and Kit Cope was allowed to occur although McCullough was a vastly more seasoned MMA fighter (13-3) than Cope (1-3); they not only allowed the bout to occur but had it as the main event. This fight, even on paper, was a complete mismatch and the submission via strikes result by McCullough was not a shock at all. On the other hand, a proposed Kazuyuki Fujita vs. Wes Sims recently proposed for the 2/24 PRIDE Las Vegas card was shot down as a ‘mismatch’, although both fighters had some top level (or at least veteran) experience (Fujita fought Kerr, Shamrock, Yvel, Cro Cop x2, Fedor Emelianenko & Wanderlei Silva while Sims fought Mir x2, Sylvia & Severn). While Fujita does have a few more fights versus top opposition, it should be noted that Sims has remained more active in recent years and would have that as a potential advantage. In addition, on paper, the match up looked universes more competitive than the Cope-McCullough matchup that was OKd by the commission. The Hunt-Sims potential fight would have been slightly less competitive in my mind (as Hunt has significantly improved his ground game in recent times and has fought more top opposition than Sims in Fedor Emelianenko, Cro Cop, Wanderlei Silva, Josh Barnett and Hidehiko Yoshida), but nonetheless was a more reasonable main card matchup than Cope-McCullough.

Yet another aspect of pointing to Marciano’s record is simply the fact that he holds a record in the sport of Boxing: the most wins without a loss, draw or No Contest at retirement. Ego fuels the desire of being ‘the man’ who won the most without losing and fighters always want to be that man. Perhaps the closest case to date of someone nearly accomplishing the goal is Larry Holmes going 48-0 before losing a controversial decision to Michael Spinks. The fact that Holmes was denied his 49th victory to tie Marciano’s record shook him up so badly that he famously said: “If you want to get technical about it, Rocky Marciano couldn’t carry my jockstrap.” to try and brush aside the fact that the disputable loss hurt his ego badly and that Marciano’s record wasn’t touched, yet again. ‘Big’ John McCarthy, the legendary MMA referee who has been a UFC mainstay since UFC 2, once stated (paraphrased): “Everybody wants be Rocky Marciano, but the nature of the game is that they eventually all fall short of his achievement.” His point was simply that while the goal of being ‘the man with the most wins’ was honorable, it also haunted most fighters in Boxing and MMA because the specter of doing one (or more) better than Rocky and retiring as such kept them off balance and, more often than not, age (with a possible combination of money attracting them out of retirement) or the right punch ended the fighter’s dreams. After all, two Heavyweight champions that had seemingly retired undefeated (Jim Jeffries and Michael Spinks) ended up coming back and losing, breaking their perfect records because of (i) hype for their potential to upset the dominant champion of their time (Jack Johnson in Jeffries’s case and Mike Tyson in Spink’s case) and (ii) money.

Probably one of the biggest variables in the reasoning of why Marciano’s record is placed on a pedestal has to do with ‘The Brockton Blockbuster’/’The Rock’ himself. Marciano, the highly touted champion who took the World Heavyweight Championship from ‘Jersey’ Joe Walcott and defended it 6 times before retiring as undefeated champion (the second champion to retire for good after Gene Tunney and the only to retire without a loss, draw or No Contest) is seen as the man who followed in the tradition of Joe Louis of being a fighting champion and taking on the best his era had to offer (Roland LaStarza x2, Rex Layne, Joe Louis, Harry Matthews, ‘Jersey’ Joe Walcott x2, Ezzard Charles x2, Don Cockell & Archie Moore), beating them all. Of course, critics of Marciano’s greatness in the history of the sport often point out that Louis, Walcott, Charles and Moore, his greatest wins (since all of them were Hall of Fame-level fighters), were when they were old men and that he had a few gifts in his career (the first LaStarza decision, a compassionate ring doctor who didn’t stop the second Charles fight and a referee who allowed him to foul Cockell silly and not DQ him). Although I personally do believe Marciano is historically overrated to an extent due to his 49-0 (43 KOs) record (I do consider him my #5 all time Heavyweight, however, behind Louis, Ali, Holmes & Johnson), I would point out that while Joe Louis should have stayed retired after the second ‘Jersey’ Joe Walcott fight and definitely was way past his zenith (the legendary writer A.J. Liebling described in The Sweet Science his own sadness at seeing a clearly past his prime Louis taking on guys he would have beaten easily in his peak years and struggling with them after he was embarrassed by Ezzard Charles, arguably the greatest Light Heavyweight of all time but a slightly above average Heavyweight and en route to his final destruction at the hands of Rocky Marciano), the other three certainly were dangerous foes.

First there was ‘Jersey’ Joe Walcott, who was a middle of the road Heavyweight (going 8-6 against top 10 contenders of the period; he had not fought from 1942-1944) until he faced a career end (even if he did not realize it at the time) Joe Louis on 12/5/47 at the old ring age of 33. Decked twice and embarrassed by ‘Jersey’ Joe (who the NYSAC at one point was refusing to sanction in a championship bout given his poor record), Louis was about to leave the ring before the announcement was made (a DQable offense), but was kept in and was shocked (as was everyone else) to hear he had received a gift Split Decision by 2 judges (Referee Ruby Goldstein gave it as a clear win to Walcott, which Louis essentially agreed with after the fight). Although Walcott had lost the fight, he won immense recognition for his great performance, which showed that the legendary Louis of old was gone. He was granted a rematch with Louis, but was KOd in the 11th. He proceeded to lose to Ezzard Charles in a NBA World Heavyweight title bout (after Louis retired for the first time), went 2-1 in contendership bouts and got a rematch against Charles (who at this time won the World Heavyweight Championship claim by beating Joe Louis silly over 15 rounds), which he lost by decision, again. For some reason, however, Charles felt it was necessary to give Walcott a third try and what became Ring magazine’s Fight of the Year for 1951, Walcott KOd Charles brutally with a left hook in the seventh round to become Heavyweight champion of the world. At 37, Walcott was the champion of the world, and he decisioned Charles to retain his title. Finally, Rocky Marciano had beaten recently beaten Joe Louis, Rex Layne & Harry Matthews, setting up the biggest matchup possible at the time. Walcott-Marciano I, which became the 1952 Ring Magazine Fight of the Year and one of the greatest fights of all time (in my opinion), had Walcott dropping Marciano in the first round and beautifully out-boxing Marciano for most of the fight, building up an immense lead and forcing Marciano to go all out in the championship rounds (13-15) to force a KO (his only way of winning). So, in the 13th round, Marciano uncorked his signature right hand, ‘Suzie Q’, as Walcott loaded up his own power shot, cold cocking the champion and making Marciano the new champion. In the rematch, Walcott essentially quit after getting dropped by a good shot, likely feeling like Max Baer that (to paraphrase Baer on him giving up against Joe Louis) “When people want to pay to see me executed, they will have to pay more than five dollars a ticket.” And on that sour note, ‘Jersey’ Joe Walcott would retire and become a referee (infamous for his role in the Ali-Liston II fight and his inability to control Ali yet giving him a KO win over Liston) and later a member of the New Jersey State Athletic Commission (which, based on the story told in Boxing Confidential, he was forced to resign from due to a corruption/bribery scandal along with Bob Lee Sr., the man who would eventually form the International Boxing Federation) before dying in 1994 at the age of 80. Walcott, a man that few saw as a true champion had, like Jim Braddock (the Cinderella Man) before him, become the unexpected Heavyweight champion and proved his mettle in a classic war with ‘The Brockton Blockbuster’, showing that he was not ‘shot’ by a long shot.

Ezzard ‘The Cincinnati Cobra’ Charles, on the other hand, was a respected fighter throughout his career, starting as a Middleweight and beating a number of top contenders in the class including Teddy Yarosz and Charley Burley, men who were feared in their weight class, earning Charles the reputation of being a ‘policeman’ (a fighter who turned back dangerous opponents to the crown that the champion often feared facing). But his real legacy is at Light Heavyweight, where he compiled an incredible record as a LHW, beating the likes of Joey Maxim, Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall (without getting a title shot and being regarded as the uncrowned champion of the division) before going up in weight to Heavyweight and to challenge for the Heavyweight championship. Charles beat ‘Jersey’ Joe Walcott for the NBA Heavyweight Championship, beat some of the top contenders in the division and a year later beat a badly faded Joe Louis (who was forced to continue fighting to pay back taxes due to the IRS, including purses he had donated to the US government) by a wide decision. Many said he could have finished Joe earlier but didn’t want to batter him worse than he did out of his admiration for the long time king of the Heavyweight division and arguably the greatest Heavyweight that ever lived. Marciano would shortly take out Louis for good (and would be remembered for crying in his dressing room at beating up the man he looked up to for many years after Louis’ final stand). Charles defended his claim against Walcott again and then was KOd in their third fight (as mentioned above). Walcott would win the fourth battle, making their series 2-2. Charles would have mixed results, going 5-3 against top ten contenders leading up to the first Marciano bout. The bout, while Charles lost, showed that he had immense heart as well as his great skill, taking a bad beating and winning some of the early and middle rounds before getting trounced and losing a 15 round decision. He was given a rematch with Marciano and managed to make a deep cut in Marciano’s nose that some claimed would have warranted a stoppage by the ring doctor (although many reports contradict the claim), leading Marciano to ‘go loose’ and KO him in the eighth in 1954’s Ring Magazine Fight of the Year. After this bout, Charles had really reached the end of his trail and suffered a number of losses before retiring and dying in 1975, suffering from lateral sclerosis of the spine, which had left him paralyzed. One of the true greats of the ring, Charles may have already begun his descent when he faced Marciano twice, but he still had most of the tools to remain competitive on two occasions with Marciano and allegedly was very close to giving Marciano his first loss by a cut stoppage.

Finally, Archie Moore, the legendary ‘Old Mongoose’ who won the World Light Heavyweight Championship at anywhere from 39 to 42 (depending on what source you use for Archie’s age) was in the middle of probably his most dominating period when he challenged ‘The Rock’ in 1955. A man who I personally regard as the second greatest Light Heavyweight of all time (behind Ezzard Charles, who went 3-0 against him), Moore was a force in Boxing, who still holds the KO record at 131 KOs in 183 wins. A clever boxer as well as a slugger, Moore was, like Charles, a ‘policeman’ for years, overlooked for years and having to fight opponents that the champions of the period feared such as Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Ezzard Charles, Holman Williams, Harold Johnson & Jimmy Bivins. In 1952, Moore finally got his title shot against Joey Maxim, dominating him to win a decision and the Light Heavyweight crown. Moore would only lose 4 more times and draw once from this point on to the end of his career, with 3 of the losses coming at Heavyweight (to Marciano, Floyd Patterson & Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali))and one he avenged at LHW against Giulio Rinaldi. He would draw with future LHW champion Willie Pastrano. Finally, after winning the LHW crown, began building up his campaign to face the recently crowned champion, Rocky Marciano. Al Weill, Marciano’s manager (and an associate/former matchmaker of the mob controlled IBC) had no interest in putting Rocky in with Moore because of his boxer-slugger style that could confuse his prized champion (hence the ‘Old Mongoose’ nickname). However, Moore put out a large campaign that forced Weill’s hand and caused interest in the bout. The bout saw Moore, the LHW champion, dropping Marciano in the second round, but slowly getting battered down to the canvas himself (he would go down 5 times), going down for good in round 9. The argument most make about Moore being ‘too old’ and ‘a poor opponent’ was due to the relatively one sided nature of the bout, but in reality, it was simply a battle of styles with Marciano wearing down the vastly slowed down ‘Old Mongoose’ and finally breaking him for good in the 9th. After this bout, Marciano retired and while he began to prepare for a potential matchup with Ingemar Johansson, but decided he could not reasonably come back, and never did, only making the computerized ‘fight’ with Muhammad Ali in 1969, shortly before his death in a plane crash. His relatively young death (about 46) may have been another variable in the mystique of the legendary warrior who did not give in to defeat.

A side tangent on the point of records is my opinion on the way that MMA has provided Win/Loss records. Unlike Boxing (for the most part, though Boxing too has been guilty of this, especially in foreign countries like Thailand), there has been a number of fighters promoted by various organizations throughout the years, touting “500-0” records (or similarly ludicrous numbers) with little paperwork to prove it. However, to be fair, the fights in those days tended to be in unsanctioned fight states with little oversight of ‘truth-in advertising’. However, there have been a number of examples of fighter record padding that seems to have gone on during recent years. In the UFC, for example, Kris Rotharmel, a fighter who was a participant in TUF 3, has a record touted as 40-4 (as can be seen here). On the other hand, Sherdog’s Fight Finder, one of the more highly regarded fight archiving sites on the internet for MMA (like Boxrec is for Boxing), lists Rotharmel’s record as 4-3 (as can be seen here). It should be noted that the Fight Finder, like Boxrec, are *NOT* absolute record keepers of every single fight in the history of the sport. However, a 37 fight differential is not the same as a fighter claiming he had 3-4 more wins on his record that were in ‘underground’ leagues that no one noticed a number of years back. It is this time of record claiming that should be investigated by commissions like the NJSAC, NSAC, NYSAC, etc. There should be the expectation that if an organization such as the UFC, PRIDE FC, IFL, BoDog, etc. claim heavily inflated records (or heck, even records differing from the Fight Finder and other record keeping systems), they should have a paper trail of some sort showing that (i) the guy fought somewhere against a guy and won or lost and (ii) it was for money (IE: it was a pro fight and not an amateur contest).

Another issue for me is when some organizations remove losses from records, even if they are recognized as such. This is probably the bigger sin of the two (padding wins and removing losses) because unlike padding wins where one can claim a fight happened out of the eyesight of the media and a commission, removing losses basically is trying to alter the prettiness of a record in terms of the amount of times a fighter has lost. On the UFC website, for example, they claim Royce Gracie’s record is 13-2-2 and includes the Harold Howard forfeit loss, which means that the Kazushi Sakuraba loss in PRIDE and a draw has been removed from his actual record of 13-3-3. To me, this is dishonest advertising and if you do not wish to recognize fights that were taped and shown to the world (forget about underground fights), then you shouldn’t advertise the fighter’s record at all. Boxing promoters aren’t afraid of showing complete records (or at least as complete as possible given Boxrec and other record keeping sites), even with losses for the fighter under their nemesis promoter’s banner, because they can just point to the key wins and losses rather than recognize the other organization.

The athletic commissions really should push more ‘truth-in advertising’ against selective record keeping by the organizations, especially in cases such as the above where blatant manipulation or vast claims in the amount of fights a fighter has had are being made. After all, without good background checks on the wins/losses by the commissions, what’s stopping PRIDE from claiming Mark Hunt is 84-1 in MMA (when he is 5-3) or something drastic like that (which happened quite a bit in the early days of MMA when there was no athletic commission scrutiny)? Just like the United States Boxing Championships scandal hurt both Ring Magazine and Boxing because of the heavy record padding made by the ranking editor, Johnny Ort, in order to ‘justify’ running the tournament on ABC (which led to an ABC published report that tarnished Boxing’s image even further), this type of behavior may ultimately bite back MMA.

Overall, I feel that the record of a fighter is important, but only when taken in context. For example, looking on paper, Emanuel Augustus’s 34-28-6 record (.500 win rate including draws, .548 win rate not including draws) seems pretty poor, but looking at the quality of opposition he faced as well as the fact that he often fought opponents in their own backyards and got the short end of the stick, it’s a misleading statistic. Similarly, Peter McNeeley’s 36-1 record into the Tyson fight, on the surface, seemed impressive, but that had more to do with the fine matchmaking made by his manager and promoter than actual achievements in the ring. Record is one element of a number of criteria to consider (such as skill, quality of wins, excitement, drawing, etc.) to place the importance (or lack thereof) of a fighter in the big picture. Without due consideration to the difficulty of opponents, the success rate against the best, the peak period and so on, you will get misleading results in terms of pure record-based statistics (such as seen in Bill Gray’s Boxing’s Top 100: The Greatest Champions of All Time, which had somewhat mystifying picks in rankings such as Wilfredo Vasquez at #15, Virgil Hill at #17 & Khaosai Galaxy at #23 (I also disagreed with the ranking of guys such as Ricardo Lopez, Mike McCallum & Bernard Hopkins), mainly because they were long term champions (even if not all of them faced great competition during their reigns) ;As a note, I vehemently disagree with the author’s premise that winning a title is a good way of sorting out who were the greatest since fighters like Sam Langford and Charley Burley were denied title shots due to the color of their skin (really, their talents, but the color line was the public justification)) that will put over fighters who really should not be spoken of in the same breath as many of the other legends of the past simply because they had a good manager and promoter/matchmaker to give them a nice, long reign with a very good number of defenses. To quote former British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli: “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics”. And given that records are really a former of statistics, well, you can piece the together my conclusion. 

Topics: All Topics, Boxing, MMA, PRIDE, Tomer Chen, UFC | 10 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |

10 Responses to “The value of records”

  1. Jordan Breen says:

    Just a few gripes.

    1) Arturo Gatti is not a quality anything, other than a quality heavy bag.

    2) Valero has problems beyond not being American and being small, nevermind that the love that Pacquiao gets from being a 130 pound slugger. The guy’s bigger problems are his brain scan issues, and the fact he has a hard on for Hugo Chavez.

    3) Don’t ever fucking talk shit about Khaosai Galaxy. EVER.

  2. Tomer Chen says:

    1) Arturo Gatti is not a quality anything, other than a quality heavy bag.

    I agree, although in terms of drawing power, he was a ‘quality’ opponent in that regard (since he sells out the Boardwalk Hall getting punched in the face). Really, I was thinking of listing him along with Bruseles and Mitchell as lesser opponents, but there are people who go apeshit and scream “HURR, FOUR TIME FIGHT OF YEAR!” without realizing that he went 2-2 against B & C level guys and that the reason they rate him anything close to ‘good’ (and why he was ranked in The Ring’s top ten in his weight classes forever) is due to the excitement factor and not talent. He was a B- level fighter, at his best (which was rare since he spent most of the time using his chin as a defensive shield and got dropped about 100 times in a fight). But yeah, he is pretty much a heavy bag with arms who managed to KO Ruelas & Rodriguez out of nowhere after taking horrible beatings and lost to freaking Ivan Robinson & Micky Ward, who are not exactly Benny Leonard (or Roberto Duran) and Henry Armstrong (or ‘Sugar’ Ray Robinson) when it comes to talent.

    2) Valero has problems beyond not being American and being small, nevermind that the love that Pacquiao gets from being a 130 pound slugger. The guy’s bigger problems are his brain scan issues, and the fact he has a hard on for Hugo Chavez.

    Although it’s true that his motorcycle accident does effectively ban him from fighting in the US, that didn’t stop Arum from trying to set up a fight with Pacquiao in Macao at one point (which didn’t go through in the end). Of course, I think seriously that Valero was going to end up as the next deceased Boxer if he did fight Pacquiao considering that featherfisted Vicente Mosquera was staggering him almost at will.

    Eh chin + brain damage + Pacquiao’s fist = Not a good combination.

    And while Pacquiao is certainly a solid drawing card (especially after beating the shit out of Morales twice, Larios and Barrera in recent times), he will never attain the status of the top drawing cards of all time such as Jack Dempsey, Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield & Oscar De La Hoya because he isn’t an American star. He’s certainly helping the sport in his own way by being the biggest Filipino star of all time (bigger than other legends like Pancho Villa and Gabriel ‘Flash’ Elorde and maybe even the greatest Japanese Boxer of all time, Masahiko ‘Fighting’ Harada, was in his time) and does respectable PPV buyrates as it is, but I don’t think he’ll ever be an icon in the sport in the same way that De La Hoya, Tyson, Leonard & Ali have been (in terms of cross over and overall drawing appeal). It’s not a bad thing, just the reality of the matter. Of course, few can get to their level of success.

    And yeah, supporting Chavez is probably not a great US support booster, but on the other hand, it may be ‘encouraged’ support ALA Max Schmeling with the Nazis where he privately hated them and even helped a few Jews escape, but publicly had to appear with Hitler and do the salute and so forth or else he was, to (partially) quote Jules from Pulp Fiction “deader than fucking fried chicken”.

    3) Don’t ever fucking talk shit about Khaosai Galaxy. EVER.

    I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy Khaosai Galaxy as being one of the true all time greats. He beat 3 top ranked contenders in his career (Edgar Montserrat, David Griman & Armando Castro) and never won the lineal Junior Bantamweight championship. I know he’s the ‘Thai Tyson’ and had a 88% KO rate and so forth, but I can think of a number of guys who aren’t in the IBHOF who would warrant induction before him (such as Holman Williams, Lloyd Marshall & Mike O’Dowd). I think he had huge talent, but he really did not realize his potential by fighting the best. Honestly, I place him above Laszlo Papp and around the same place as Jess Willard on the “What the heck was the IBHOF thinking?” list. He’s not the worst blight on there (I would say 2007 inductee Jose Sulaiman is overall and Papp or John C. Heenan are the worst fighters), but I still don’t understand his induction beyond his near perfect record against less than great opposition.

    Comparing Galaxy’s career to, say, Salvador Sanchez (who was tragically killed at 23 and fought for 3-4 years less than Galaxy), he has 10 top ranked contenders/champions to his name (Richard Rozelle, Danny Lopez x2, Ruben Castillo, Patrick Ford, Juan LaPorte, Roberto Castanon, Nicky Perez, Pat Cowdell & Azumah Nelson) in addition to his huge battle against Wilfredo Gomez, who stepped up from Junior Featherweight to face him. I would say that’s a very impressive resume, especially considering the short life Sanchez lived. If Galaxy had fought 3-4 more top contenders, I would have personally had no problem with his induction and the hype behind him, but he seems to have a dearth of top competitors. If you want defend Galaxy, be my guest, because I honestly don’t see the hype behind him beyond his power punching.

    To be completely fair to Khaosai Galaxy, however, I would also argue that Ricardo Lopez basically became a legend out of a division he essentially had ready made for him (Minimumweight) instead of actually having to face Michael Carbajal or Humberto Gonzalez at Junior Flyweight. If you’re in a division that was relatively new and was diluted from the original eight weight classes, obviously the talent pool is diluted, but at the same time that means you will historically be found to have fought lesser talents. Hence why I’m not a huge Ricardo Lopez supporter, either: he basically went up after Carbajal and Gonzalez were gone so he wouldn’t have to face them for a Junior Flyweight title, which is rather underhanded. 

    P.S.: I appreciate the debate on fighters, historical and present (since I love the history of combat sports). Also, your knowledge of organizations like SHOOTO makes you a valuable commodity in the MMA community. I don’t want you angry over my opinion on the greatness of certain fighters you may like, but this is just how I see things. To quote Dennis Miller after a rant on his old HBO show “…of course, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.”

  3. Jordan Breen says:

    “Really, I was thinking of listing him along with Bruseles and Mitchell as lesser opponents”

    That’s exactly where he belongs. Gatti is a bum. A ferociously entertaining bum, but a bum.

    “I think seriously that Valero was going to end up as the next deceased Boxer if he did fight Pacquiao considering that featherfisted Vicente Mosquera was staggering him almost at will.”

    Mosquera isn’t really THAT featherfisted, and his punching power has been a bit better as of late. Moreover, I think a lot of things contributed to Valero looking the way he did in that ring. I don’t even want to imagine what it felt like fighting in that ring, because given the heat, and how packed and cloying the surroundings of the ring were, I can only imagine it would’ve felt like death. Throw in the manic pace he fought at in that fight (even more manic than his usual efforts) and the fact that it was his first real opponent who wasn’t a street vendor, and I think there’s maybe some magnification of how bad his chin is.

    Nonetheless, at this point, yeah, Pacquiao kills him. But I’m not really concerned with a Pac/Valero fight right now. I think people calling for this fight are extremely myopic, in the same way MMA fans can be when they want to see Michael Bisping vs. Chuck Liddell tomorrow. How long has Pacman been at the top level? Christ, until Mosquera, Valero hadn’t even fought anyone worthy of being a sparring partner. He’s a long way off from being anywhere near ready to fight Pacquiao, and it’s bogus for anyone to expect him to do so now.

    “I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy Khaosai Galaxy as being one of the true all time greats. . .”

    I should apologize for making that comment. It appears as though it lead you to believe I was deathly serious in an objective fashion, and therefore you were forced to type way more than you should’ve been, so I apologize.

    Your critiques of Galaxy are definitely in line with my own, completely. However, I feel the need to defend Khaosai from many who attempt to sully him, just for the plain and simple fact that he kicked fucking ass, and could level some hapless Korean like nobody’s bizziness.

    “I would also argue that Ricardo Lopez basically made a legend out of a division he essentially had made ready for him. . .”

    Now we’re talking, homebreeze. Lopez was a fraud.

    “I don’t want you angry over my opinion on the greatness of certain fighters you may like, but this is just how I see things. ”

    Nah, your analysis is pretty much spot on. Just don’t feel the need to save face with retards by giving Gatti leeway, don’t expect Valero to take over the world despite still being 99.9% untested, and love Khaosai for knocking the faces off of some tricycle drivers.

  4. Tomer Chen says:

    Nah, your analysis is pretty much spot on. Just don’t feel the need to save face with retards by giving Gatti leeway, don’t expect Valero to take over the world despite still being 99.9% untested, and love Khaosai for knocking the faces off of some tricycle drivers.

    Yeah, I’m not too big of a Gatti fan (especially considering his face-as-defense style basically overshadows any real quality fighters just because he brings the bloodlust out of people), but I do think he had some potential if he (i) learned basic defense and Boxing technique to set up shots about 5 years before he met up with Buddy McGirt and (ii) he didn’t run into punches all the time (including the case of a pretty featherfisted Welterweight like Baldomir who could still knock him silly because his chin isn’t granite as some make it out to be and they are even bigger than he is). In fact, I’d argue that Gatti’s chin is pretty shitty considering the amount of times he’s gone down in his career, but like Tommy Hearns and Terry Norris, he’s (usually) able to survive the batterings and make a comeback.

    As for Valero, I just gave him as an example of a growing prospect who has broken Young Otto’s 1st round consecutive KO record and got a paper trinket belt from Mosquera yet is not a figure of interest like Tyson was (and to be fair to Valero, most of Tyson’s early opponents on his big KO streak were less than great themselves, although he probably had a few fewer cab drivers than Valero has had). I do think, however, that Tyson was built up more steadily than Valero has been (or even Valuev, who really only faced 2 guys that even challenged his limits the least bit in Ruiz and Donald and he’s freaking 46-0).

  5. Jordan Breen says:

    Tyson was built up masterfully and groomed toward being a champion. Valero might as well have just been fighting dudes for featherdusters on a corner in Caracas. When the second best opponent on your resume is Genaro Trazancos… well, yeah.

  6. Tomer Chen says:

    Tyson was built up masterfully and groomed toward being a champion. Valero might as well have just been fighting dudes for featherdusters on a corner in Caracas. When the second best opponent on your resume is Genaro Trazancos… well, yeah.

    Jimmy Jacobs & Bill Cayton (Hell, they even made a pension annuity for him which Robin Givens freaking demanded be liquidated – how many other fighters get pension plans?) with Kevin Rooney as trainer vs. the fearsome manager/trainer team of… TEIKEN and Jorge Zerpa?

  7. Jordan Breen says:

    I’m not gonna shit on Zerpa, and especially TEIKEN, who does a good job with a lot of young Japanese talent. However, Valero did waste more time than necessary fighting total dicklickers. I’m just glad that they’re realistic now, saying Valero is, at the very least, three quality fights away from fighting Pacquiao. So, hopefully we can get to see how Valero can compete against legit guys over the course of 2007.

  8. Tomer Chen says:

    I’m not gonna shit on Zerpa, and especially TEIKEN, who does a good job with a lot of young Japanese talent. However, Valero did waste more time than necessary fighting total dicklickers. I’m just glad that they’re realistic now, saying Valero is, at the very least, three quality fights away from fighting Pacquiao. So, hopefully we can get to see how Valero can compete against legit guys over the course of 2007.

    TEIKEN isn’t a bad team, but as the managers for Valero they should have built him up, giving him a few pushovers, then some styles matchups with beatable guys and work up to Mosquera or St. Clair/Klassen (Klassen ended up beating St. Clair) and finally, Guzman, Barrera or Pacquiao-level guys. As they say, a good manager is one who protects the fighters interests and make sure they matures to take on the top guys, whereas the bad ones just pad records and then toss them to the lions (like what happened to Valero).

  9. Jordan Breen says:

    I forgot Malcolm Klassen has a belt now. Fucking terrible.

  10. Tomer Chen says:

    I forgot Malcolm Klassen has a belt now. Fucking terrible.

    Ah, the joys of sanctioning bodies…

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